CPES Under Varnish

Scary said:

The problem with using Epithanes is the 24 hrs between coats, So the finishing process takes 13 days.

Click to expand...

That's true of the Epifanes varnish and it requires light sanding between coats. But the Woodfinish Gloss can be reapplied without the need to sand between coats. They say 24 hrs between coats but I have had great results reapplying after 8-12 hrs for 2 coats per day in our low humidity environment.

Here's a poor shot of the job after about 4 coats of WFG on the cap rail. The hand rail above it was preciously finished with 6-8 coats of Epifanes Gloss Varnish. There is no discernable difference in appearance between the two products.



When I re-do my doors, I'll use 8 coats of Epifanes WFG over 2 applications of CPES. I don't want to have to do them again!!



Wood Finish Gloss - Epifanes NA Inc.

I don't want to have to do them again!!

EZ , store then inside in an air cond space , never let rain stand , and esp wipe off any dew in the AM before the sun rises!

FF said:

I don't want to have to do them again!!

EZ , store then inside in an air cond space , never let rain stand , and esp wipe off any dew in the AM before the sun rises!

Click to expand...

My doors? Ya, I'll just take them off the boat every time I return to the slip and bring them home to my air conditioned house. That doesn't sound real practical, Fred, not to mention the risk of theft.

FlyWright said:

That's true of the Epifanes varnish and it requires light sanding between coats. But the Woodfinish Gloss can be reapplied without the need to sand between coats. They say 24 hrs between coats but I have had great results reapplying after 8-12 hrs for 2 coats per day in our low humidity environment.

Here's a poor shot of the job after about 4 coats of WFG on the cap rail. The hand rail above it was preciously finished with 6-8 coats of Epifanes Gloss Varnish. There is no discernable difference in appearance between the two products.

When I re-do my doors, I'll use 8 coats of Epifanes WFG over 2 applications of CPES. I don't want to have to do them again!!

Wood Finish Gloss - Epifanes NA Inc.

Click to expand...

Exactly right. That many coats should last a lifetime, we only did 4.

Beginner's Stuff-Up: well, I started great guns. Got the timber cockpit doors back to bare wood and sanded smooth. Applied 2 coats of CPES wet-on-wet and gave it 36hours+ to cure. This raised the wood as previously advised so I sanded it smooth again, then applied one more coat of CPES. After 6 hours or so, while still tacky, applied a first coat of varnish to both doors. 24 hours later, they looked really great: the CPES had filled the grain and with just one coat the varnish was looking smooth & glossy. So, I enthusiastically applied a 2nd varnish coat to one door. Finished the first door and stopped to look over my work. As I looked, the surface began to orange-peel and bubble up! Remember, this was my 2nd coat of varnish, so I didn't suspect the CPES....I thought I hadn't given the first varnish coat time enough to cure. Fortunately I hadn't 2nd-coat'd the 2nd door, the first coat on which continued to look great. So to play safe, I left the 2nd door alone for another 48 hours while I stripped back (heat gun, scraper and sander) the first door. I also called CPES tech support for advice: didn't get them immediately so left a msg.
So now I had one door stripped back (I suppose much of the CPES coats were still intact) and one door with an un-blemished 1st varnish coat on board. I re-varnished the stripped door and waited...and waited....all looked good again. So I started putting a 2nd coat on the 2nd door, but was cautious and only did a couple of the rails....only to see the orange peel/bubbles effect again !
Then the CPES tech support guy called me. Long story short, the idea of putting varnish onto tacky CPES only works for 2-pack varnish products (polyurethane, Bristol, etc). For one-pack varnishes like I'm using, the CPES must be allowed to fully cure, be sanded smooth and cleaned off with a water-damp rag. No one-pack varnish onto tacky CPES!
Hope this helps another varnishing newbie!

Anyway, the 2nd door has now been cleaned back and another '1st' coat of varnish applied...looks good. The 1st door now has 3 coats of varnish on & is looking great. I'll keep on coating with varnish until I get 6 coats on or the Admiral kicks me out of the garage, whichever happens first.

Hmm, maybe I should send beer so you can stay in the garage for as long as it takes to get the job done.....

Belated reply to your earlier question - the Cetol I used was Light, not Natural. From the test strips in the shop, Light looked the best at the time..... I suspect that a lot of the abrasion I am seeing on it is a result of the way the boat was secured during shipping to Australia.

I've now got some caulk - I ended up with Sika 290i DC from Whitworths - so over the next couple of days I will clean out the problem caprail and toerail joins and hopefully get some caulk a reasonable way into the gaps. With the gaps sealed I will wait a bit longer before starting on the strip and CPES phase. Well, that's the plan at present.

I have just anchored in Deanbilla Bay, close to Dunwich so I can get the weekend papers in the morning before then heading off elsewhere. Deanbilla has a lot of seagrass on a muddy bottom, and last time I was here I could not set the Forfjord style anchor, it just plugged up with grass then dragged. So rigged up the alloy Sarca. It set instantly, so I am going to continue using it around the bay.

Cpes before caulking

I've now got some caulk - I ended up with Sika 290i DC from Whitworths - so over the next couple of days I will clean out the problem caprail and toerail joins and hopefully get some caulk a reasonable way into the gaps. With the gaps sealed I will wait a bit longer before starting on the strip and CPES phase. Well, that's the plan at present.


Seal the wood with CPES first,, Sika is a good product, mask the joint both sides before caulking with sika, this will keep the Sika from filling the grain next to the joint and give a cleaner appearance. If you varnish over the Sika, this will be your first point of failure down the road. I would probably CPES and varnish before applying the Sika the first time. Future coats you pretty much are stuck applying the varnish over the caulk.

Smart move

Then the CPES tech support guy called me. Long story short, the idea of putting varnish onto tacky CPES only works for 2-pack varnish products (polyurethane, Bristol, etc). For one-pack varnishes like I'm using, the CPES must be allowed to fully cure, be sanded smooth and cleaned off with a water-damp rag. No one-pack varnish onto tacky CPES!
Hope this helps another varnishing newbie!

Anyway, the 2nd door has now been cleaned back and another '1st' coat of varnish applied...looks good. The 1st door now has 3 coats of varnish on & is looking great. I'll keep on coating with varnish until I get 6 coats on or the Admiral kicks me out of the garage, whichever happens first.[/QUOTE]

It is interesting to me how many times we would have saved ourselves from a lot of pain suffering if we had A, read the directions or B, called tech support for advice.
I have always allowed CPEs to cure before recoating out of fear of solvent pops and orange peal. I spray as much as possible, and problems like orange peal and solvent pops seem to manifest themselves more often when you spray instead of brush. Most varnishes are really formulated for brushing, so reducing to spray can be tricky. One of the tricks that Interlux advised was using Alcohol as a solvent for prepping the surface between coats. I notice it give the previous coat a little tooth and eliminates any possibilities contaminates like wax or finger prints screwing up the finish. Two part polys can be really fussy as to surface prep. Using the right thinner is also something often overlooked, it's hard to pay $30 a quart for their brand thinner when $10 a quart thinner from the hardware store cleans up just fine. Sometimes problems with varnish can be traced right back to using the wrong thinner. Especially in hot weather. Working time and solvent pops are usually are impacted by how fast the varnish skins up. Varnish shrinkage, ever notice how varnish tightens up over time, grain that didn't show when you walked away showed up the next morning or two days later. Solvent is still evaporating out of the finish through the skin for several days. That's why waiting the recommended time between coats is important. The finish may seem hard, but the subsurface is still curing and somewhat gummy. You take a chance recoating early, often you get by with it , when you don't you either live with the results or start over.

Just likr Bob Lowe, I was using Smiths CPES in the early 80's and I spoke to Bob Smith on many occasions mainly about his produce and application techniques. I also learned CPES is not a petroleum product. It's basically tree resin with an alcohol base and a catalyst. It replaces the "sap" that leaches out of dry wood and hardens it.

I was told by Smith to always let it cure 72 hours as others were. It off gasses the entire time.

Therefore I have always let it cure. I know I'm against the grain here and will have lots of criticism but I'm going by what I was told by the chemist that created the product.

I will say I did use it first on my transom and I applied two coats, let it cure overnight and coated it with a spar varnish, then another product similar to Crystal and then a clear LP. After a year it changed color, became much less clear and month after month the grain in my teak was harder to see. It actually turned an orange color and opaque. Stripping it off was a bear. I had to sand into the teak to get to bare wood again. It does penetrate.

Great recon there, Aquabelle! Thanks for the research and perseverance to get it right. No doubt you just saved me from lots of grief in the future when I tackle my doors.

Thanks much!!

I'm discovering an important part of oil varnishing is using the best level of oil in the varnish. There is "long oil" and "short oil" varnish and of of course some are middle of the road. I bought some Epifanes and found it was a harder finish short oil varnish. Less susceptible to scuff marks ect but more susceptible to cracking and film failure.

So we went back to the long oil varnish we have used over the years for the better flexibility. But if you have a high quality pure Tung oil you can add it to a short oil varnish like Epifanes but then you'll loose some flexibility and hardness and knowing how much oil to add may be a problem.

Hey guys, do me a favor. Take a close up of the finished britework and save it.
Next year do the same. Then the third year do the same.

I want to see the comparisons.

Thank you very much

Wood finish products (or not!) threads always seem to go the way of dual/single engines, anchors, or AIS...

That said, this month we stripped our cap rail. We put on 1 coat of Cetol Natural, and 2 coats of gloss. We had no idea what the original product was (I'm assuming Cetol, because the end result is very similar in color, and the drips from the PO were colored), but to strip it, a heat gun and a scraper were more than sufficient. We did follow up with a sanding at 80 grit.

We found that two people made the job MUCH more efficient. One person would work the heat gun, while the second would scrape. We could strip one side (34' long trawler) in an hour.



A few more images on our boat blog.

Greetings,
Mr. mb. "... knowing how much oil to add may be a problem..." Now would you recommend straight 30wt tung oil or multigrade?

Since you've been paying attention RT let's just Tung it.

That's a mouth full

I've always said there's britework and dullwork.

I prefer britework and a clear beautiful grain that lasts year after year with a brilliant shine. That's my goal that's what I have always done.

I don't like any finish that changes color or blurs the grain.

I have some stuff you'd probably like Cap.
Mirror Coat. It's a clear bar finish. Two part epoxy.
I intend to put it on our dining room table.

I'm tired of epoxies and expensive varnishes! I,m going to Le Tonkinois linseed varnish you get from hamilton marineI'm happy with the results!. I used a foam brush three coats

Bluemoon,

A good friend of mine recommended Tonkinois; he recently started using it on his sailboat teak. His turned out a very dark grey, so I hesitated to try it. Also, it does not seem to be much available from my normal sources.

I loved the ease and "oil look" from the Teak Oil that I used, but have problems with it always "bleeding" a little on the white gelcoat whenever it gets wet.

Have you had any problems with bleeding? My friends boat did not seem to show any bleeding signs, though like I said, I did not like the dark grey color that it turned out.

Welcome to Trawler Forum bluemoon43.

"Tonkinois" linseed varnish.

Most all varnish is made w either linseed oil or teak oil. Is "Tonkinois" a regular varnish or a special linseed oil finish?

I've done lots of linseed oil "varnishing" or oiling so I'm curious what is in the Tonkinois varnish besides linseed oil and in what quantities as I mixed my own oil finish.

We put 2 coats of McKloskie's spar varnish on our cap rail two mos ago that is admittedly just a beginning and it's already going south in spots. Intention was to get through the winter. May touch up w oil and turpentine (it's a natural anti-fungiside) and finish the job next summer.

I've used mc varnish , didn't last on my boat hooks a month. As for dark color on teak that's ok with me. He needs to put another coat on ot get the shine . The port door has the first coat,the hatch has the first coat. Sunday I put another coat on both, the hatch is dark,but with all wood it absorbs differently

As long as I don't have to strip varnish every year I'm happy! The varnish companies have really sold their products. Wood expands and contracts paint or epoxy will not last with going on. There is a 65 foot yacht beside my boat the epoxy is breaking off the toe rail in chunks. Why use something that you have to repair every year or so , go enjoy your boat life is to short for that! I don't mind hitting the wood with 220 sand paper and put another coat of le Tonkinois on .

" I don't mind hitting the wood with 220 sand paper and put another coat of le Tonkinois"

That's what we usually do w McKloskie's Spar varnish. It's a long oil soft varnish.

If you use linseed oil it will be dark used it on a swim step ladder it is dark. Do not use this product it will leave stains on your clothes. Le Tonkinois will not rub off on you

The cost of neglect

I'm in the middle of refinishing the cover boards and toe rail on a 50' Gulf Star sail boat. Thank god the owner is working along side me as nobody would believe the time and effort involved. This boat had been neglected for at least 15 years and over sanded into a wavy mess. The process we are using involves a coat of Smiths penetrating epoxy, followed 24 hours later with a coat of west 105 epoxy, sanded and lightly coated with a follow up coat of Smiths penetrating epoxy and a single coat of Epifanes gloss while the smiths has just became touchable. The followed 24 hrs later a heavy coat of Epifanes gloss and 7 more coats following every 24 hours. This is the procedure recommended by West systems as the three year trouble free varnish job. I will post some pictures later this week. Last fall we had restored some of the cover boards with Smiths penetrating epoxy and 8 coats of Epifanes gloss. When the owner returned this fall the varnish was failing at the joints, the companion way I had build last year showed signs of turning white under the gloss as well. This was after 8 coats of Epifanes as well. This new approach for me is to use the West 105 as well as two coats of Smiths with all repairs done with West 105, cabosil, and color pigment after the first coat of Smiths. The techs at West Systems stated that Epifanes was by far the best varnish available. The teak toe rail was so wavy that I used my air long board to flatten and fair the faces before finish sanding with my Merka DA and Fein. There is a week of sanding alone on the two toe rails before the first coat of Smiths. When working with epoxies masking is imperative on all but flat surfaces as they run like mad as they heat up curing. This owner is one of those guys who does his research and is willing to do what ever it takes to do it right. Time will be the judge. My own boat has a little teak, the eight coats of Epifanes is showing signs already in less than one year. Delta heat and sun play hell on varnish when left exposed. All my handrails have covers for protection and hold up for several years between coats.

My simple rule for any boat I own. NO EXTERIOR WOOD !!!!! I love the look of teak inside and I love the look of well kept exterior teak, on someone elses boat.