Full Displacement Hull

healhustler said:

Take it easy, Poke. Even full displacement hulls can be so varied in their sea-worthiness that while one might roll you like crazy and the other snap your neck. Mine is a full displacement and bounces like a cork, working your legs to death.

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Larry, the point was that the OP used the term "tug" without any further description. Was he talking about a real tug hull form or one of those 30 footers that will do 18 knots and the manufacturer calls it a "tug".

Without more information his question cannot be answered.

Al said:

On the "Dorothy Mackenzie". This is a West coast B.C. Canada fleet tug, right? There is another tug outfit B.C tug outfit that runs Pink, White and Black colors. Here in South East Alaska, where this company occasional operate, they have acquired the nick name "Pink Panther" (with affection) What is amazing is the horse power these little rigs have and the pulling power they demonstrate. These rigs come by pulling tandem and the barges are not small or lightly loaded either.
How a crew (assume two) operate and reside on the lengthy hauls they run makes one believe time off is a dream come true. Just attempting to visualize the crew accommodations is a mind twister.
Love seeing them come by the house along with viewing photos of them.

Al

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Al,

Yes, I was aboard Sandman years ago in Port Townsend.

My little Fearless drawing was based on my memories of boats like this....



There were still a lot of wooden tugs working when I was an impressionable teen, and even later when I started working on the boats myself.

Today a 36' tug is a dayboat, they have a 2 man crew and do one shift then tie up. For 24 hour operation you must have 3 crew to keep watch, and then an engineer, and accommodations must be above the main deck. So they end up with a 5 man boat like the picture below. North Arm Transportation use the pink paint here in BC (perhaps they run into Alaska).

Since this has turned into a discussion about tugs, I'll throw this great site up here:

http://prtugboats.blogspot.ca/?m=1

markpierce said:

This forum and its title is a primary source of confusion as to what defines a recreational "trawler." The site's subject concerns cruiser motor vessels (typically semi-planing hulls with two over-powered engines and sporting a flying bridge), not just sub-displacement-speed, full-living-accommodation motor vessels.

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What qualifies as an overpowered semi-planing hull? I'm under the impression that too many older semi-planing hulls are underpowered. For the boating that I do now, my GB36 with twin 120 lehmans is underpowered. It would be nice to cruise at a minimum of 12 knots. It doesn't seem to make much sense to have a semi-planing boat that can't go much faster than hull speed. I like the idea of being able to go slow when I want and fast when needed. The newer boats (GB, Fleming, NT, AT,etc...) got it right with powerplants that get boats to actually cruise in the teens or higher.

And dont forget the most famous tug of all- HMS Frisky!
Foundation Franklin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

North Arm, Yep that is the company. Introduced to them back in the 60's when Canadian mining companies were developing the gold mines on the Stikine River tributaries. They had the gall to take a fully loaded fuel and equipment barge up river. Those of us in Wrangell that knew the river were aghast. By golly, with the help of a knowledgeable local they did it. Wonderful times those were!!!
Thanks Ted.
Al

Al, I didnt know that. When I think North Arm, I think of Venture flipping in Skookumchuk. Well, that and Pink!

I really think the trawler designation should be dropped. It is totally confusing and no longer has meaning other than a marketing designation to attract attention. I think this site should change its name to the Motor Boat Cruising Forum. I think that a more specific definition of boat types should be used on this forum. Type #1 Planning MV #2 Semi displacement MV single or twin power #3 Full displacement MV single or twin power #4 Multihull Where the hull type is in a grey zone a rare thing, a designation bridging the two zones involved ,as in a fast boat somewhere between planning and fast SD as a #1/#2

eyschulman said:

I really think the trawler designation should be dropped. It is totally confusing and no longer has meaning other than a marketing designation to attract attention. I think this site should change its name to the Motor Boat Cruising Forum. I think that a more specific definition of boat types should be used on this forum. Type #1 Planning MV #2 Semi displacement MV single or twin power #3 Full displacement MV single or twin power #4 Multihull Where the hull type is in a grey zone a rare thing, a designation bridging the two zones involved ,as in a fast boat somewhere between planning and fast SD as a #1/#2

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Then one will just argue about what those are....how about this, you divide it like this.

Super slow: under 5 knots, normally oars or paddles
Slow: 6-7 knots.
Not quite as slow:8-9 knots
Slightly above slow: 10-12 knots
Medium speed: 13-16 knots
Moderate: 17-20 knots
Decent speed: 21-25 knots
Rapid: 26-30 knots
Fast: 31-40 knots
Faster: 41-60 knots
Super Fast: 61-100 knots
Light speed: over 100 knots

And of course change the name and you'd have to change the url.

Did you mean planning as in someone planning to buy a boat? Or planing as in up and on top of the water?

Good point though. We'd need categories for those who no longer have a boat and for those who have never had a boat but want one.

Then sub categories for number of engines. And sub sub for number of anchors

Oh and what about those with multiple boats? And do we need sub categories for types of tenders?

Sorry Northern Spy,
failed to consider all posters are not that familiar with areas away from their respective ports. North Arm Transportation. We have Skookumchucks here as well. Trust this correction will suffice. This thread is becoming convoluted and I fear my contributions didn't help!!

Al

BandB said:

Then one will just argue about what those are....how about this, you divide it like this.

Super slow: under 5 knots, normally oars or paddles
Slow: 6-7 knots.
Not quite as slow:8-9 knots
Slightly above slow: 10-12 knots
Medium speed: 13-16 knots
Moderate: 17-20 knots
Decent speed: 21-25 knots
Rapid: 26-30 knots
Fast: 31-40 knots
Faster: 41-60 knots
Super Fast: 61-100 knots
Light speed: over 100 knots

And of course change the name and you'd have to change the url.

Did you mean planning as in someone planning to buy a boat? Or planing as in up and on top of the water?

Good point though. We'd need categories for those who no longer have a boat and for those who have never had a boat but want one.

Then sub categories for number of engines. And sub sub for number of anchors

Oh and what about those with multiple boats? And do we need sub categories for types of tenders?

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Don't forget each category will require a sub category of flybridge and no flybridge. And each of those categories will need to be divided by two more sub categories of galley up and galley down.

Generally i cruise at 9 knots. But my boat can go 16 knots. Which speed category do i belong in?

bligh said:

Don't forget each category will require a sub category of flybridge and no flybridge. And each of those categories will need to be divided by two more sub categories of galley up and galley down.

Generally i cruise at 9 knots. But my boat can go 16 knots. Which speed category do i belong in?

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Not quite so slow in a medium speed. Oh and add number of staterooms and location of master. And helms, up down or both. Then all the choices of engine brands. Maybe a category for every horsepower.

Or then perhaps we just continue as is and everyone is welcome.

To the original question, I worry that the correct answer may not be heard if presented bluntly. 30 miles offshore at 8knots is a long ways. You won't be doing 8 knots in a storm. I've been in what must have been eight to ten foot seas when it was blowing over 30 kts and that is enough to ruin a good boat. I did not have a chance to measure exactly. I just know that one wave took the life ring right off the side of the flybridge and another took the dingy right off of the sun deck and left it in the cockpit. I would not have wanted to be committed to be spending the night in those conditions. In my situation, I was in protected waters and only had to make it around a corner for about 3 miles to protection and that 3 miles took a lot out of me that day and nearly two hours. The boat will often not be the deciding factor. Having a good understanding of the characteristics of what the vessel you are on will do from wave to wave will be quite important. There is little that I or others can teach you quickly that will remedy this. If you have to ask, then as the saying goes, your not ready.

Personally, I would not want to be 30 miles out in one of today's "tugs" in all but perfect conditions. I would really not want to be out that far in my own boat either and I'm quite a bit larger at 48 feet, have more keel and a round chine vessel that is capable of a lot more than I am and I assure you that as it sits today, I'm capable of a lot more than you are right now. I don't mean that to be oneupmanship in the slightest. You put in your time and you can do it too, I've acquired experience over 20 years. You wanted a straight answer, while asking the wrong question with a lot of attitude and I'm trying to get you to understand.

The thing is, many years ago boats of this size were considered quite large. People would think nothing about taking a sub 30 foot boat all the way from Seattle to Alaska. But they did so without the expectation that their boats could do anything. They applied a lot of judgement and even more experience. It's only recently that the belief that one must have a boat capable of anything has arisen. That belief of course is a selling point dreamed up by marketing departments, staffed by people who have never put themselves in harms way and never will. The truth is that if you want a boat that can take anything Mother Nature can dish out, you will need to go much larger and it won't be sold by a company marketing something like a Nordic tug. No offense to nt either.

Frankly, at your experience level I'd rather have a boat capable of less seas and more speed. Anybody can follow a weather forecast good for 12 hours with a boat capable of doing such a trip in half that time. That's why you see sport fishers at greater than 50 feet that will go 30 knots. Bring loads of cash though as they burn lots of fuel and those kinds of diesels may get rebuilt every season. It is a tried and true formula though.

To make this work with a thirty something tug, that's another formula entirely. I think your fooling yourself. It could work, but you have a better chance of needing your brown pants and then wanting to sell the boat. Chances are you would survive, but I guarantee that Mother Nature will make you wish you took up gardening instead more than once. It sounds funny to say, but of all my boating friends over the last 20+ years! I only know about 3 or 4 who willingly stick their noses out into the rough stuff and we almost always have a good excuse initially and would rather laugh at the stupidity than brag about the accomplishment. We have all licked our wounds and been in places we would have happily rather not been. Your just way over the line in terms of your expectations on what is reasonable and you obviously don't know it. That's a recipe for disaster. Again, I won't say its impossible. Given the right day and the right forecast, I'd be game for a 30 mile tuna trip on any of those boats. The difference is that i have a well developed sense of self preservation and would never buy such a boat with your goals as one of my primary expectations.

For what you want, you should be looking not at trawler style boats, but instead you want a planing style hull. Not just any planing style either. I'd say to go for an 18 degree deadrise or greater deep v in less than 40 feet, or maybe a touch shallower deadrise in something around 50. Closer to 50 will get you room for creature comforts to rival a 35 foot trawler. Look to an old hat sport fish, a 35 Bertram or similar, maybe even a Viking if you really bring the cash. You will be much much happier. No need to literally buy the trawler myth when what you really want and need a fishing boat. Plus, if you want to learn a bit more about the rough stuff, you can do so while blasting through 4-5 footers at over 20 knots with a seriously wide grin on your face. It will vastly speed up the learning curve and not require you to wear brown pants all the time.

Ghost

Thanks Ghost for the reply,
Yes perhaps I did not word my question in the op as to aquire what I was looking for but there was nor has there ever been any attitude at all. I joined this forum in hope of learning some truth about what I can or can not expect a Pleasure tug or trawler to do or another words what the limits would be that I could hope to obtain from such vessle.

I have years of experience with deep v huls and modified and so forth. All outboards and runninng 30 to 50 knots with limited living space but no worries about what I was running in.
I did not ever on purpose head out in big sea's. I still have no desire for that. LOL

What i was trying to learn was what a pleasure tug or trawler such as an Albin 40 north sea cutter or a lord nelson or sundowner tug was capable of and I thought a trawler/tug forum was the one place i could find out. I mean talk to the ones who run such a boat and learn what they feel about them and what is a reasonable expectation of one.

Whether or not they would be my best choice for running the icw and looping for the next year or so is what I am setting out to learn and decide. Within this looping I will go out and fish a reef or bar or wreck or rock pile. I am choosing the best fit for me and the family.
The real problem is finding one boat which meets all needs and desires. I have not ever had such a boat as this and that is why I normally had several of them.

I do not ever plan on heading out so far as to place my family in harm. Planning is just that, you can make the best of plans and check all the reports and feel it is good and every now and again something blows in or changes and catches the best of them off gaurd. That is and always will be why I was asking what a pleasure tug or trawler could or could not do.

I am just glad I did not bring up these so called fast trawlers which boast of top speeds of 20 knots as well as great slower speeds of 5 to 8 knots and not burning much fuel at all. I dont even want to imagine where that question would have gone.

Any way Ghost, thanks for your time and shared wisdom.
Have a great week
Jim .......

Jim, welcome to the forum. I suggest you spend a bit of time, even using the search function up at the top, to just browse the forum in a general way, maybe searching under words that are relevant to what you want to know or do, and you'll come up with a heap of stuff which will help in your decision-making.

Then, armed with that do some Googling for specific boats for sale,etc, and then if something takes your fancy, (and being prepared to not get too discouraged by some of the responses you'll get - folk on here are usually frank, but supportive), put up some specific questions re certain boats that you think might fit the bill. For example, Ghost's comments made a lot of sense.
Just a thought...

BandB said:

Then one will just argue about what those are....how about this, you divide it like this.

Super slow: under 5 knots, normally oars or paddles
Slow: 6-7 knots.
Not quite as slow:8-9 knots
Slightly above slow: 10-12 knots
Medium speed: 13-16 knots
Moderate: 17-20 knots
Decent speed: 21-25 knots
Rapid: 26-30 knots
Fast: 31-40 knots
Faster: 41-60 knots
Super Fast: 61-100 knots
Light speed: over 100 knots

And of course change the name and you'd have to change the url.

Did you mean planning as in someone planning to buy a boat? Or planing as in up and on top of the water?

Good point though. We'd need categories for those who no longer have a boat and for those who have never had a boat but want one.

Then sub categories for number of engines. And sub sub for number of anchors

Oh and what about those with multiple boats? And do we need sub categories for types of tenders?

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Ok maybe you are on to something. A category for those who actually stop posting and go out and use their boats. That gives me an idea that is exactly what I am going to do now. See you on the water.

eyschulman said:

Ok maybe you are on to something. A category for those who actually stop posting and go out and use their boats. That gives me an idea that is exactly what I am going to do now. See you on the water.

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Wifey B: But I'm posting from boat so guess it makes me bi-something....multi tasking.

Greetings,
Mr. BB. Instead of light speed (186,000 miles/sec) might I suggest "Holy sh*t that's fast for a boat" speed (HSTFFAB)?

In my mind, which can get kinda crazy and crowded, my power boat definitions are:

• A trawler/troller is a full displacement boat.
• A motor boat is a small planing or semi planning boat that you use for the day and seldom, if ever, use over night.
• A motor/power yacht is a planing or semi planning boat that you can live in, for at least a few days, if not all year round.

Later,
Dan

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. BB. Instead of light speed (186,000 miles/sec) might I suggest "Holy sh*t that's fast for a boat" speed (HSTFFAB)?

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A lot faster than I want to go in one. I've been one time in a boat that ran 90+ mph so about 80 knots and I have no desire to run that speed on the water and certainly none to run faster.

full displcement hull

Keep one thing in mind EVERY time you go out, We' re Pleasure Boaters. I've had big boats for (40-50 ft) for over 40 years and boated on the East Coast out of Great Kills SI with a 40 sportfish and ran several Jersey inlets and had to heave to more than once as we couldn't get back in. One time because a 60 ft MY was on the rocks and Coast Guard was doing a air/sea rescue. I also have been on Lake Erie over many years now and been caught in seas that made Atlantic City Inlet look like a cake walk. Difference is lake Erie is like an east coast inlet when it blows up but when your stuck it's not 20 min but several hours. All these instances were in fast ,planning hulls that were very well built boats and experience people on board. I now own a 501 CC in Florida and after one rough inlet experience I don't want to take this boat through that again. Answer is most boats will handle more than the occupants. If you have a lot of experience you really shouldn't have to ask what your boat will do. If you have a lot of experience you will be able to handle MOST situations as you will know your boat, crew and own limitations. If you start a voyage with" I wonder if we ...". The don't go. Hope that helps. Cambria Lady

Well, I am personally quite fond of the sundowner tugs. I think they are smart vessels. If you want to do the loop, fish occasionally and you are ok with the accommodations, I think its a great boat for you.
The lord nelsons are quite handsome as well. But they are tanks and have weird engine rooms.
There are also ranger tugs, nordic tugs, american tugs, grand banks trawlers that all match your description as well.

What is your budget?

bligh

bligh said:

Well, I am personally quite fond of the sundowner tugs. I think they are smart vessels. If you want to do the loop, fish occasionally and you are ok with the accommodations, I think its a great boat for you.
The lord nelsons are quite handsome as well. But they are tanks and have weird engine rooms.
There are also ranger tugs, nordic tugs, american tugs, grand banks trawlers that all match your description as well.

What is your budget?

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Depends on the boat really. We have not set a paticular cap but i am not looking for a million dollar vessel either.
Thanks bligh
Jim

Cambria Lady

Thank You for your reply and growing up I used to tell my dad all the time that erie was way worse then the atlantic. Grew up about an hour from lake erie and she can put you to the test in a hurry. lol.

I may have sounded sceptic in my op but I have not run trawlers and tugs and even though I have been told by dealers and such I wanted to make sure I would not be disapointed in a choice like that seeing I would be spending at least a year on it from the get go.
As far as the loop goes and family i am sure there would be no problems and yet I truly want to make sure I get to venture to some of my desdired fishing areas up and down the coast.

Thank You again and have a great week
Jim

bligh said:

Well, I am personally quite fond of the sundowner tugs. I think they are smart vessels. If you want to do the loop, fish occasionally and you are ok with the accommodations, I think its a great boat for you.
The lord nelsons are quite handsome as well. But they are tanks and have weird engine rooms.
There are also ranger tugs, nordic tugs, american tugs, grand banks trawlers that all match your description as well.

What is your budget?

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Sundowners are cute little boats but if it has not already been done you will be buying fuel new tanks and redesigning the structure to install them properly. See attached survey of a Sundowner tug, the only fresh water boat I have ever seen with rotten fuel tanks.

boatpoker

boatpoker said:

Sundowners are cute little boats but if it has not already been done you will be buying fuel new tanks and redesigning the structure to install them properly. See attached survey of a Sundowner tug, the only fresh water boat I have ever seen with rotten fuel tanks.

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Thanks for the pdf and info.