Chesapeake Anchor Holding Power Test

But when i consider the sheer volume of individual reports of increasing frequency complaining of roll bar anchors clogging....

Click to expand...

Assuming this is even correct-- and in the reading I've done on the subject it is not, at least on a worldwide basis-- it's not a very good gauge of reality. If a whole lot of people start buying bicycles, it's obvious that more people will have problems with bicycles.

Likewise an anchor type. If more and more people are buying a particular type of anchor-- the rollbar in this case-- it stands to reason that the number of people who experience problems-- whatever the reason-- will increase.

Based on what I see in our marina, and even on our own dock, Rocnas in all sizes are rapidly increasing in popularity.

But where this has recently really been driven home is here in Europe. Today we took a long walk along the Seine here in Paris. While I can't say that every rollbar anchor we saw was a Rocna, there are a ton of them in use over here. Many of the commercial power barges that we saw going up and downriver had rollbar anchors. A number of the converted barges (now liveaboard boats) that we saw have rollbar anchors.

These are craft that the last time I was here and paid attention (maybe six years ago), the dominant type of anchor was the conventional ship anchor (Navy?). Some of the rollbar anchors we saw today were monstrous, I assume well over 200 pounds (the EU requires all inland waterway vessels to carry an anchor capable of holding the vessel against the currents they may encounter).

Anyway, the bottom line is that the rollbar anchor is becoming increasingly popular, so it is to be expected that the number of people who say they have problems with them will also increase.

But of all the folks I know personally today who have switched to a Rocna or Manson, every one of them say they feel it's the best anchor they have ever used and they are real happy they made the switch.

We certainly are, which is why I continue to say that in my opinion, the rollbar anchor is currently the best all-round anchor design on the planet. I know there are people who disagree with that, but in the words of Clark Gable in "Gone With The Wind", I don't give a damn.

Rex said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex
psneeld Wrote:


Come On scotty lighten up a little. Just a little humor?

Kind Regards.

Rex.

Click to expand...

Oh Oh - Here comes pict of BOZO smoken a fag again.

Marin wrote .. one more time.

"Based on what I see in our marina, and even on our own dock, Rocnas in all sizes are rapidly increasing in popularity."
Marin you've said that for so many years it must be false as it seems there are still other brands of anchors "on your dock" that presumably is a float.

"Anyway, the bottom line is that the rollbar anchor is becoming increasingly popular, so it is to be expected that the number of people who say they have problems with them will also increase."
But you've said or/and implied we'd all go to heaven if we'd just get a Rocna and now you say "problems" will increase?


But as to clogging I think they're supposed to clog. That's how they get much of their holding power jamming the seabed into the hoop hole. Interference drag you know. I wish in one of these tests the'd cut the hoop off eliminating the hoop hole, clogging and that advantage to see how much holding power is left.

manyboats said:

"Based on what I see in our marina, and even on our own dock, Rocnas in all sizes are rapidly increasing in popularity."

Marin you've said that for so many years it must be false as it seems there are still other brands of anchors "on your dock" that presumably is a float.

Click to expand...

For years, we had the only rollbar anchor on our finger (about 40 boats). There are now about 5 to 10 depending on if one includes the sublets that come and go. And we see a lot more boats with rollbar anchors in the Seaview North yard throughout the year.

"Anyway, the bottom line is that the rollbar anchor is becoming increasingly popular, so it is to be expected that the number of people who say they have problems with them will also increase."

But you've said or/and implied we'd all go to heaven if we'd just get a Rocna and now you say "problems" will increase?

Click to expand...

Take a statistcs class, Eric, and then get back to me.

I hate to throw fuel on this Rocna fire but Rocna is about to release a hoopless anchor for us folks that can't carry a roll bar anchor. The sales rep was talking about getting me one to beta test. We'll see.

Marin I'm mostly just jiv'in ya.

I admit the Rocna is becoming quite popular. I think the Supreme is a better anchor but there are fewer of them. Smith and the company have done a great job of promoting it, it's got a catchy name and w enough scope very good performance except mud. But I suspect it's only very slimy mud that gives the Rocna fits. Most of our anchorages are mud bottom and this shortcoming has'nt come to the fore till this Fortress test.

So I think the Rocna is a top performing anchor but I can think of many that I would rather have. The notion that is was finally the world's perfect anchor has been dispelled and I do think they were definitely over rated.

There you have it Marin. An honest post about the Rocna.

Statistics can be a slippery slope.

Rex said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex
psneeld Wrote:


I'm with the general crowd that have been using all kinds of anchors for years and are happy with their results and are satisfied with the reports of their cruising friends....as they haven't heard any alarming news either that their anchors are a danger to themselves or a boatload of grandkids.


Gee Scott, I though you were solid and would never move, does this mean you would give me some consideration, 22 years the Super Sarca has been around, deployed on all types of water born craft from private to commercial use as a multi purpose anchor, in its time this design was a world first, is it possible that you may now accept me as a local.

Kind Regards.
Rex.

Never move from what???

I'm not one of the ones that are all of a sudden pushing the Danforth types because of one test. Goes to show how close these posts are really read.

I think there are several newgen anchors that deserve consideration..not necessarily a "run out and replace your anchor" endorsement..but when the time comes..look them all over and consider what they claim to do and how others that use their anchors many nights a year think of them.

I also have agreed like others that there are specific anchors that out perform others in certain situations. Just like engines...but I only keep one handy in the engine room.
__________________


Come On scotty lighten up a little. Just a little humor?

Kind Regards.

Rex.

Click to expand...

OK ...really haven't taken too much of this too seriously from the very beginning if you follow my whole line of thinking.

I just find it a challenge when people lock onto one thing...whether it starts with a bad premise or follows up with certainty on a statement that can be read into many ways and come up with a hypothesis for the "many" that has more holes in it than the "swiss cheese" moon theory. Either that bit of amazing thought gets a challenge or if the pitcher throws a ball at my head...I just throw the bat at him...

Forums are never usually a good indicator of the state of mind the poster is in...except for the very talented writers that do grace our forums.

So you see...I'm taking most of this in with a grain of salt and a hope that the wisps of reality shine bright enough for me to pick them out of the "mud"...

For Art...I'm sure there's many here that thought I looked and acted like that long before whomever was kind enough to post that Bozo pic for me. Thankfully all the people who pay me for my nautical efforts think I'm worth every penny.

For all those happy with Ronca or Manson I would think you would find the bar less Ultra(price aside) even more pleasing. I did own a Manson which went with my boat when sold, it was very good to me. The only difference I can note between the two is the lack of the bar and the Ultra seems to come up cleaner and is easier to wash off probably due to its clean design and high grade stainless finish. The other great thing about the Ultra is the special ball swivel that insures the anchor mates with the roller and pulpit at the proper orientation. This takes a lot of strain off the windless at a critical time. A custom windless builder once explained to me that one of the greatest strains he has to consider in sizing and gearing was the point at which the anchor comes up and flips over roller.

The worst thing about a fortress is breaking it out after a strong blow. I collapsed my steel bowsprit after retrieving in 8 ft waves the bottom was clay like mud. If you set it just forget about it you are not going anywhere.

manyboats said:

The notion that is was finally the world's perfect anchor has been dispelled.....

Click to expand...

I don't know that even Peter Smith would claim it's the world's perfect anchor although I'm sure he'd like to think so.

I, however, do think it's the world's best all-around, general purpose anchor design. I think the Sarca is the second best, mainly because of the fact it's designed to be the backside of a shovel blade with its concave fluke.

I admit I've never shoveled dirt in Australia, so perhaps they use the back side of the blade down there. But I've found that I get more resistance and thus pick up more dirt with the concave side of a shovel blade.

Anyway, the rollbar concept, regardless of whose name is on it, is, I think, the smartest general-purpose anchor design to come along to date. The fact the rollbar makes it a hard-to-impossible design to stow on a lot of pulpits, is, I believe, the real reason some of the rollbar manufacturers are starting to offer non-rollbar anchors: when a good chunk of the market can't use your product you'd be a fool not to come up with a product that broadens your market appeal.

Its my understanding that the roll bar is there to insure the proper orientation of the anchor to the bottom. The Spade and ultra do the same with weight and hollow shanks. Either way you get the point. The point that is supposed to dig in.

In post #456 I mentioned a boat that goes to SE Alaska every year w an average sized Navy anchor.

He came back a few days ago and I took these pics today. The yard put him next to us but we'll be out of there in a week or two.

I mentioned the anchor to him about 10 years ago but can't remember his response. So here's one boater that seems to do fine w a very dated anchor that most of us probably wouldn't even consider.

manyboats said:

In post #456 I mentioned a boat that goes to SE Alaska every year w an average sized Navy anchor.

He came back a few days ago and I took these pics today. The yard put him next to us but we'll be out of there in a week or two.

I mentioned the anchor to him about 10 years ago but can't remember his response. So here's one boater that seems to do fine w a very dated anchor that most of us probably wouldn't even consider.

Click to expand...

Does he anchor often? And, in what kind of bottom did he anchor in?

Been enjoying following this. These anchor stousches are always fun. However, as a small but important point of order, which even the man himself appears to have missed, psneeld actually said, (among other things…Marin, I think it was you who misquoted him)...

"I have NOT heard an alarming number of people saying roll bar anchors clog...what I hear is more people are using nexgen anchors than ever before and are perfectly satisfied by them."

Most people when they need a new anchor need it NOW! A large number of the same type of modern anchor is a sure guarantee that the nearest chandler is a stockist of that brand, go to another marina with a nearby chandler stocking a different brand - and guess where the focus lies. A better measure of an anchor's reputation might be to look at the numbers of modern anchors on the bows of vessels not stocked locally. These latter buyers have made a conscious decision to not go with convenience and this might be a better indication.

Edit: One example might be the numbers who buy an Ultra or Spade, neither are cheap and it seems unlikely you buy them if they do not work (accepting that some buy the Ultra because its absolutely gorgeous (when new)). An extreme example are the numbers in America and Europe who appear to go out of their way to buy something from Anchor Right. You do not do this simply because you like Australians (nice though they may be).

PeterB,
Seen a lot of pictures of them clogged.
Mostly Supremes though.
And don't recall pics of clogged SARCA's.
How could they not clog?
Look at their shape.

Eyschulman wrote,
"The Spade and ultra do the same with weight and hollow shanks. Either way you get the point. The point that is supposed to dig in."
But w the weighted tip the fluke dosn't have to drag a roll bar over it's head through the bottom to "dig in". The roll bar certainly dos'nt help penetration.

Djbangi, You've got it backward. Chandlers stock the anchor that people in the area ask for.

In the real world chandlers stock items that might be difficult to differentiate from others, but more importantly, make the highest profit - which is why they are full of cheap stuff (to them, the chandlers) from China.

Rocna's are made in China and have almost identical costs to a Delta or Mantus. You tell me the difference in price in your chandler and then tell me where that difference goes.

The idea of manufacture in China was always the cheaper cost, similar labour, same galvanising, same raw materials (comparing Mantus, Rocna, Delta) of production and I have nothing against that. However a Supreme carries NZ labour, environmental, social (pensions, health care) and raw material costs but the difference between the prices of the Rocna and Supreme, in our market, is not significant.

If the chandlers are not enjoying a bit of the pie - they are mad.

Durango I'm not sure what you are saying. Any retail store has to stock what sells. The customers drive what the store stocks. The price that an item sells for is strongly driven these days by the Internet. It hard to sell anything for more than someone can buy it for on the first couple of pages of Google.

manyboats said:

So here's one boater that seems to do fine w a very dated anchor that most of us probably wouldn't even consider.

Click to expand...

You may be interested in this photo I took recently of the same design of anchor working underwater:

I agree with funangler. Same thing has occurred several times to myself. I generally put rode down back a little, put more and call it good. The anchor will reset itself. If a blow is coming up I will keep one of the radars warmed and spooled up so I can check position anytime.

I witnessed a friends boat drag one night in a blow at Sucia island. I had more weight on mine with a 32 and 38 Bayliner attached to me. He was 52. This same blow put a couple boats on a reef including a small CG boat. I was sure glad I had things spooled that night! Thusly I'm not very impressed with the "plow" type of anchors. To each his own though.

Hopcar,

Maybe its different in America but if a chandler is offered consignment stock and margin of 100% and a similar product that he pays on 30days credit and can only make a margin of 30% - I wonder which he chooses.

Most people are simply not discerning, which is why chandlers are full of unbranded anchors.

I thought the recent thread that discussed snagging/and or losing an anchor pretty much indicated that most people hadn't lost anchors due to snagging.

So beyond the obvious people who may lose one on a trip (but still may wait till they find the anchor they want in a couple days safely tied to a dock)....most people I know, thoroughly studied anchors and bought ones they wanted even if it was a difficult process. Me, Marin, (Don) Moonstruck, and it sounds like more than a few others did NOT buy an anchor out of a poorly stocked chandlery because they needed it now.

And even if I had to on a trip...and it wasn't an anchor I really wanted...I'd probably look for a deal on an anchor I wanted and sell the "rush buy anchor" on craiglist (like the other 4 I sold cleaning out my boat and storage).

I would say people "inherit" anchors they either like or don't based on what came with their boat. Every serious cruiser I know was either happy with what came with the boat...or they thought about it and ordered what they wanted...no rush involved.

HopCar...get with the program and stock stuff you can't sell!!!!!!.......lot's of it so when I head to Florida in December, you'll be ready for your giant "Mid-Winter Clearance Sale" where everything is at giveaway prices because you can't sell them.

Thank goodness for the anchor inventors, where would you lot be when it comes to full on adrenalin hot flushers, Marin I am not going there, next time have a better look as you may find quite a few Super Sarca anchors hanging of your boats, 300lb- some good numbers have been steadily moving in your direction, next week we have another 6 large anchors heading to the oil spill booms in Canada.


Eric, all anchors I suppose can clog, when we origionally designed the Sarca it was a concave and clogged readily, after ongoing development and testing we ended up convex for reasons I have gone into before on this forum so many times, anyway without going through the whole shooting match again convex solved the problem, twenty two years longevity verses approx ten years Rocna –Manson Supreme, whets the brand again that’s clogging? Any way Eric you should have followed Marins Lead, how silly we are down here using a shovel backwards to dig, no wonder it wont clogg.


We are doing well and I am not to fused about throwing heaps at the U.S. market, if someone comes a long that is serious I think they wood do well given the amount of emails we receive re supply of our anchors, I have just sent a N0 five alloy Excel and a No five Galvanized excel to Mexico, both anchors to the same customer, yes we are known worldwide, not a bad effort given the onslaught of anchors from high profile companies.


Regards Rex.

I'd like to repeat two items mentioned before... and add number three:

1. As much or more importance than the actual anchor design it is the "correct" method used of setting said anchor (of any type) by the boat Captain at hand - that is the bottom line!

2. In different bottom conditions there can become need to use different anchor designs. This again comes back to boat Captain's "correct" method of anchoring. And, it may well be required for a boat to have more than one design of anchor... depending on how many different bottom conditions a boat often anchors.

3. Every anchor design/brand discussed in these posts are apparently good products. It is up to individual Captains to utilize anchor of their choice. Again, "correct" method used of setting said anchor (of any type) by the boat Captain at hand - is the bottom line!

Art

"Maybe its different in America but if a chandler is offered consignment stock and margin of 100% and a similar product that he pays on 30days credit and can only make a margin of 30% - I wonder which he chooses."

Wow, you're right! I'd take the free stuff every time! I wish it happened in the real world, but it doesn't. The few times I've been offered consignment merchandise, it doesn't sell. If the product was any good the manufacturer wouldn't be so desperate to get it on the shelf.

No anchor manufacturer has ever offered me anchors on consignment. I stock Fortress, Delta, Danforth, Claw and a few cheap anchors I buy from a local distributor. I own them all.

Rocna is after me to stock their anchors but so far they haven't offered any consignment anchors. I'll see how they sell at the Ft. Lauderdale boat show before I decide whether to stock them.

I'm still waiting for Rex to send me a free container load of his anchors.

Peter B said:

Been enjoying following this. These anchor stousches are always fun. However, as a small but important point of order, which even the man himself appears to have missed, psneeld actually said, (among other things…Marin, I think it was you who misquoted him)..

Click to expand...

Peter-- The quote I included in my post was from Djbangi in his post 501, not psneeld.

I see all this high tech high holding power anchor movement as nothing more than an extension of our present culture. High tech is in. It's moving so rapidly even the kids have a hard time keeping up. Last months stuff is just old and can't do anywhere near as much as what's new. It's the norm. Technology is advancing so fast and far that almost nobody expects what just came out. My new car is a small economy car that gets way over 30mpg but it has power .... even at 80mph. Who knows what will come next ... but few will be surprised.

Now within this high speed fast evolving tech culture (worldwide) we have trawler skippers and general boaters. Most of us are old and tech shock is like sticker shock on steroids. But a lot of this that's going on all around us has a strong effect on how we think and what we do. The force to get on the band wagon is even stronger for people who work in fast advancing high tech industries ... like Marin. Old people are usually left behind in the dust but the gap now is so great lots of us old people are saying "no, no I don't want the dust I wanna keep up and stay strong". So we buy new latest high tech super performing anchors .... and expect to be pleased beyond our greatest expectations. And to some extent we are.

But I think that's what's driving this anchor of the month mindset that abhors anything several years old. But the old things work just as well as they did when they were new and once you get beyond the hype that gap is much smaller than we think. And the bottom line for the anchor tests is to sell anchors so the tests will be orchestrated to maximize the apparent gap between the old and the new.

manyboats said:

The roll bar certainly dos'nt help penetration.

Click to expand...

Of course it does. That's the reason it's there. If it wasn't there the fluke would not end up in the correct position to knife into the bottom. You say you understand how a rollbar anchor works, but I'm not sure you really do. Watch the video on the Rocna website (if it's still there) and you'll see the principle behind the anchor's design.

No roll bar, no bottom penetration and no set.

Rex said--- Any way Eric you should have followed Marins Lead, how silly we are down here using a shovel backwards to dig, no wonder it wont clogg.

Click to expand...

Rollbar clogging and fluke shape are two different topics. I don't know if rollbar anchors are susceptible to clogging their rollbar hoops or not. Ours never has and I suspect your anchor rarely, if ever, does either. Anyway, what difference does it make if it "clogs" or not? That's what washdown pumps are for, right?

The issue of convex vs. concave is purely physics or geometry or whatever science it is. A concave survace concentrates material--- be it mud, air, or dirt in a ditch-- by forcing it toward the center of the suface. In the case of an anchor, a concave fluke surface will concentrate the bottom material toward the center of the fluke, which will increase the fluke's resistance to the direction of pull. It's why the concave surface of a shovel picks up and holds more dirt than the convex side.

A convex surface sheds material.

In the case of an anchor, having a convex fluke may enable the anchor to come up clean(er). But... the only thing I care about with regards to an anchor is how well it holds once it's set. And by my way of thinking, a concave fluke surface is going to present more resistance to the direction of pull because of what it does with the bottom material than a convex surface, which, by its very nature, tends to shed material.

I'm not interested in how clean the anchor comes up because a previous owner put a monster AC washdown pump on the boat (25 gallons per minute). I am only interested in how well an anchor holds.

But I will say that if Peter Smith had not come up with his design, I would have bought yours even if I had to have it shipped over from Australia.