Sailor of Fortune
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Oh-oh! You opened a can of worms.
How much anchor chain?
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Worm #1,
I tend to view chain and it's weight as an assist to setting.
Unless one has an anchor that does poorly at short scope chain has little if any benefit to holding excluding one's swing radius. It will take more wind to raise an anchor's shank at lower velocities but when the chain is straight from a very strong wind holding power wise chain has no advantage.
Heavy chain will greatly reduce one's swing radius though so perhaps if an all chain rode on a given boat was 300lbs putting 280lbs into the first 100' and nylon line for the rest would deliver a really small swing radius. But what advantage would that be if someone like me anchored close w almost all nylon line rode?
I've seen fishing boats in Alaska w heavy ground tackle basically not move at all. Anchor chain straight down the whole time. That would be a good motive for me to consider chain. However I rarely get any water on my windshield and assume a big reason for that is my light bow.
I tend to view chain and it's weight as an assist to setting.
Unless one has an anchor that does poorly at short scope chain has little if any benefit to holding excluding one's swing radius. It will take more wind to raise an anchor's shank at lower velocities but when the chain is straight from a very strong wind holding power wise chain has no advantage.
Heavy chain will greatly reduce one's swing radius though so perhaps if an all chain rode on a given boat was 300lbs putting 280lbs into the first 100' and nylon line for the rest would deliver a really small swing radius. But what advantage would that be if someone like me anchored close w almost all nylon line rode?
I've seen fishing boats in Alaska w heavy ground tackle basically not move at all. Anchor chain straight down the whole time. That would be a good motive for me to consider chain. However I rarely get any water on my windshield and assume a big reason for that is my light bow.
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CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
I've heard you claim this before with the same level of uncertainty Eric. Why not load the equivalent of 300' of anchor chain on your bow and go for a ride to test that theory one day?
Nomad Willy
Guru
I am not uncertain.
It's obviously going to increase the probability of that happening. As you know I'm against unnecessary weight on a boat but not to the extent of switching to plastic cleats or removing the ballast that Rod Smith (Willard designer) thought was necessary. But the benefit of half of an all chain rode is so questionable I take a stand against it.
And if I was to do the experiment you suggest and not get (as far as I could tell) my windshield any wetter do you think I'd want to go for the chain? Not so. Unnecessary weight on a boat is bad. And needs to be reduced or eliminated when found. For a better boat. I'm always trying to make my boat better. Sometimes I do that by the direction and deeds of others and sometimes I think for myself. Sometimes I may make a fool of myself but I think it's not often.
Think of this. If a chain has 1 or 2' of catenary while the wind is blowing how much good is the weight of the top half of the all chain rode doing to help catenary lower or keep down the shank of the anchor? I think I can actually show that it helps raise the anchor shank and increase the probability of the anchor breaking out. Perhaps in two ways.
It's obviously going to increase the probability of that happening. As you know I'm against unnecessary weight on a boat but not to the extent of switching to plastic cleats or removing the ballast that Rod Smith (Willard designer) thought was necessary. But the benefit of half of an all chain rode is so questionable I take a stand against it.
And if I was to do the experiment you suggest and not get (as far as I could tell) my windshield any wetter do you think I'd want to go for the chain? Not so. Unnecessary weight on a boat is bad. And needs to be reduced or eliminated when found. For a better boat. I'm always trying to make my boat better. Sometimes I do that by the direction and deeds of others and sometimes I think for myself. Sometimes I may make a fool of myself but I think it's not often.
Think of this. If a chain has 1 or 2' of catenary while the wind is blowing how much good is the weight of the top half of the all chain rode doing to help catenary lower or keep down the shank of the anchor? I think I can actually show that it helps raise the anchor shank and increase the probability of the anchor breaking out. Perhaps in two ways.
OP
OP
O C Diver
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Eric, just for the sake of discussion, 300' of 1/4" G4 chain with a WLL of 2, 600 lbs weighs 225 pounds. If you put out 200'+ in a 10 to 1 scope, run a proper snubber to eliminate shock loading, your boat hasn't got enough surface area water and / or wind to lift the first 5' out of the mud. The same isn't true for rope with a smidgen of chain. If 225 pounds less your current rope and chain is too much additional weight in the bow, you're already way to close to the limit.
Glad you setup works for you. Arguing that an all chain road would compromise the safety of your vessel or would be inferior in a blow is going to be a hard sell.
Ted
Glad you setup works for you. Arguing that an all chain road would compromise the safety of your vessel or would be inferior in a blow is going to be a hard sell.
Ted
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Why 3 feet of chain? Seems hardly worth the trouble.
Mule
Guru
I hope ur kidding...
3 foot weave into the chain from end of weave to anchor all chain perhaps 200 feet. from end of chain to end of rope perhaps 200 feet of nylon.3 different techniques of attaching chain to nylon.
Giggitoni
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Mule, If you have an iPhone or iPad, get the app called Grog Knots. Look at the marine section and choose "chain splice". It's similar to an eye splice. Works well and looks good!
I would, however, use an eye splice with a thimble and connect to the chain with the appropriate-sized shackle. Stronger with less stress on the line. Forget about the swivel; all that does is keep the swivel manufacturers in business, IMO!
I would, however, use an eye splice with a thimble and connect to the chain with the appropriate-sized shackle. Stronger with less stress on the line. Forget about the swivel; all that does is keep the swivel manufacturers in business, IMO!
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BaltimoreLurker
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I thought the rule of thumb was the length of chain should be about the same as the length of your boat. I don't recall where I heard that but it sounded good to me and, so far, it seems to be working just fine for me in the Chesapeake.
Mule
Guru
On my Mainship, under contract, I replaced my hause pipes on the bow to the rope/chain locker with a combo hause pipe/cleat. To my surprise and dissappointment the thimble, schackle would not pass through. So I did a weave which is about the same size as the chain.
I like thimble-schackle arrangement best. It will not pass through a chain to nylon wildcat. I was a boatswain mate in the Navy, I never had occasion to conquer Samson braid, forgotten a lot, 45 years will do that. Thanks for the top on the app, I need a bit of ref tra....refresher training.
I like thimble-schackle arrangement best. It will not pass through a chain to nylon wildcat. I was a boatswain mate in the Navy, I never had occasion to conquer Samson braid, forgotten a lot, 45 years will do that. Thanks for the top on the app, I need a bit of ref tra....refresher training.
MurrayM
Guru
When we upgrade our ground tackle to storm/winter worthy proportions, I'm leaning towards 90' of chain.
Under 'normal' circumstances the 90' of chain will keep the boing-boing yo-yo wind swinging antics to a minimum, and the nylon portion would soften jolts on the anchor if the wind is ever strong enough to make an all chain rode bar tight.
Under 'normal' circumstances the 90' of chain will keep the boing-boing yo-yo wind swinging antics to a minimum, and the nylon portion would soften jolts on the anchor if the wind is ever strong enough to make an all chain rode bar tight.
Nomad Willy
Guru
BL,
I suspect that was in Chapman's book.
FlyWright wrote;
"Why 3 feet of chain? Seems hardly worth the trouble". That's the most important part ... right next to the shank so it will have the greatest tendency to keep the shank down so an anchor will set and if set so it will hold. The first 3' of my chain is 3/8" ... very heavy for my boat.
O C Diver,
Never anchor at 10-1 scope. That would have a huge area of swing. Fine in a big anchorage w only you there but how often will that occur. Never seen east coast waters though. What is "300' of 1/4" G4 chain with a WLL of 2"? WLL of chain?... "Arguing that an all chain road would compromise the safety of your vessel or would be inferior in a blow is going to be a hard sell." ... Yes. But if my theory flies it will result in just that. Only a small difference but if correct it shows that 50 to 200lbs of chain (or more) on many of our boats is not of any value except convenience.
Murray M,
IMO a bigger anchor should help you more than more chain.
See thread "SARCA spotted ... for more on my theory.
I suspect that was in Chapman's book.
FlyWright wrote;
"Why 3 feet of chain? Seems hardly worth the trouble". That's the most important part ... right next to the shank so it will have the greatest tendency to keep the shank down so an anchor will set and if set so it will hold. The first 3' of my chain is 3/8" ... very heavy for my boat.
O C Diver,
Never anchor at 10-1 scope. That would have a huge area of swing. Fine in a big anchorage w only you there but how often will that occur. Never seen east coast waters though. What is "300' of 1/4" G4 chain with a WLL of 2"? WLL of chain?... "Arguing that an all chain road would compromise the safety of your vessel or would be inferior in a blow is going to be a hard sell." ... Yes. But if my theory flies it will result in just that. Only a small difference but if correct it shows that 50 to 200lbs of chain (or more) on many of our boats is not of any value except convenience.
Murray M,
IMO a bigger anchor should help you more than more chain.
See thread "SARCA spotted ... for more on my theory.
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OK, I see...you're splicing into the first 3 feet of chain. That's a horse of a different color. Sometimes details are lost in writing brevity and speed reading.
I was also advised that a boat's length of chain was considered a minimum effective length of chain. I wouldn't travel with less but enjoy much more at 120 ft.
Mule, you don't tell us what kind of windlass gypsy you have so it's hard to be specific with recommendations. Some gypsies can handle chain and line, but cannot handle the shackle. Others are chain only or line only.
Have you explored YouTube for instructions on various splices? https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=line+to+chain+splice
I was also advised that a boat's length of chain was considered a minimum effective length of chain. I wouldn't travel with less but enjoy much more at 120 ft.
Mule, you don't tell us what kind of windlass gypsy you have so it's hard to be specific with recommendations. Some gypsies can handle chain and line, but cannot handle the shackle. Others are chain only or line only.
Have you explored YouTube for instructions on various splices? https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=line+to+chain+splice
MurrayM
Guru
Will be upsizing the anchor for sure. Under 'normal' circumstances I'm theorizing that the 90' of chain would help 'keep us put' in tight anchorages, where there could be a danger of swinging into thin water at low tide.
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Mule
Guru
I have a 38 foot 25,000 lb boat dry. Live aboard..read diesel, water, added systems and personal effects, overkill 33,000 lb.
I am upgrading ground tackle.. Ideally, I would like to have an all chain 7 to 1 anchoring ability in 30 feet Textbook....210 feet before nylon...thoughts???
I am upgrading ground tackle.. Ideally, I would like to have an all chain 7 to 1 anchoring ability in 30 feet Textbook....210 feet before nylon...thoughts???
kthoennes
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I just replaced my rode (chain and rope combo) this weekend and did the chain/rope braid like this so the transition is nice and smooth through the windlass:
...although I don't like his big melting technique for the bitter ends, I think that's messy. I whip my eye splices and back-braids like this.
Kind of anal I know, but much neater I think.
...although I don't like his big melting technique for the bitter ends, I think that's messy. I whip my eye splices and back-braids like this.
Kind of anal I know, but much neater I think.
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BruceK
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Hendo posted pics of alternative methods of splicing rope to chain a while back on his boat building thread. An issue was the splice running through the windlass, he had enough chain that the rope section would probably never be needed. But with just a boat-length of chain, you`ll almost certainly run it thru the windlass every time.
kthoennes
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Mule, you even seal the ends of the whipping twine? Okay, we're both fanatics, but you're a notch beyond me. But then I must have all my mooring lines the same color, and my snubber line on my yellow shore power cables has to be yellow to match.
markpierce
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Should be at least the length of the boat. I've got all-chain rode on my trawler as it can easily handle the weight (much more than the 200 feet I have presently.) On my previous sailboat, it was a combination of rope and chain, but weight was a major consideration for a one-ton vessel without a windlass.
FF
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>Ideally, I would like to have an all chain 7 to 1 anchoring ability in 30 feet Textbook....210 feet before nylon...thoughts???<
Perfect if you will be in Coral areas in the Pacific.
Chain in most coastal areas lays in MUD , which must be scrubbed off before going below or the boat will stink like low tide at all times. Either lots of brush scrubbing , or a clutched 2 inch engine driven pump is needed for the drill.
Long chain lengths only work when stored in an actual chain locker , tall and narrow .
If simply dumped in the bow the chain pile can tumble , and its a hand job to go and pull it apart so it will again run thru the deck hole.
For The AICW , a couple of ft of chain and nylon is easy to live with.
For the Bahamas 100ft of chain would be overkill, as most anchorages are shallow.
In the Carib short chain with lots of nylon is best as it gets really deep close to shore.
Perfect if you will be in Coral areas in the Pacific.
Chain in most coastal areas lays in MUD , which must be scrubbed off before going below or the boat will stink like low tide at all times. Either lots of brush scrubbing , or a clutched 2 inch engine driven pump is needed for the drill.
Long chain lengths only work when stored in an actual chain locker , tall and narrow .
If simply dumped in the bow the chain pile can tumble , and its a hand job to go and pull it apart so it will again run thru the deck hole.
For The AICW , a couple of ft of chain and nylon is easy to live with.
For the Bahamas 100ft of chain would be overkill, as most anchorages are shallow.
In the Carib short chain with lots of nylon is best as it gets really deep close to shore.
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FF
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>That just saved me $400.<
Bring 10% in BEER (Becks) to Ortona , if you pass by.
The reason only a little chain 4-5 ft is used is to help the anchor set , but most important the chain will stay above the surface (and things that would wear rope) as few bottoms will lety the anchor bury for more than a foot or 3.
Bring 10% in BEER (Becks) to Ortona , if you pass by.
The reason only a little chain 4-5 ft is used is to help the anchor set , but most important the chain will stay above the surface (and things that would wear rope) as few bottoms will lety the anchor bury for more than a foot or 3.
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Nomad Willy
Guru
FF,
How-a-bout 3'of cable and then 4-5' of chain?
How-a-bout 3'of cable and then 4-5' of chain?
Mule
Guru
wI'm a simple man. Doesn't take much to make me happy. Original Bruce and chain back from regalvanizing and my new Rocna.
View attachment 33193
Ted
Who, where did the work. Be nice to know
OP
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O C Diver
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V & S Galvanizing in Pertth Amboy, NJ. Probably have an hour or 2 of work on the chain ahead of me. In spite of their best effort, many of the links are lightly stuck together from the process. Basically you stand them up on a hard surface and modestly strike the top one with a hammer to break it free from the one below. Very few places regalvanize chain as it requires a shaker of spinner to throw the excess off and keep the links from sticking. I'm told the places that do chain a lot, yeild better results. These guys were the closest I could find at 200 miles away. Cost $425 for the chain and the Bruce. New 3/8" chain runs $1,700 for 400'. So I thought this was a good deal.
Ted
