TF Designation for Ocean Crossers

bayview said:

Lucky to get ACROSS...

Click to expand...

You mean.... Because I put my finger in a light socket (and survived) does not mean I am an electrician? Say It Ain't So, Joe.

bayview said:

Lucky to get ACROSS...

Click to expand...

When I retired from a career in flying, someone told me I was lucky I didn't crash in my 39 years and 15,000 flight hours of flight, much of it in high density areas at low altitude. This was from someone who doesn't fly and never will...knows nothing of the flight training, risk mitigation, mission preparation or crew concepts that made it possible to perform the duties confidently and safely. To him, I was lucky. To me, I was prepared and skilled. It all depends on your perspective and familiarity with the subject, I suppose.

FlyWright said:

When I retired from a career in flying, someone told me I was lucky I didn't crash in my 39 years and 15,000 flight hours of flight, much of it in high density areas at low altitude. This was from someone who doesn't fly and never will...knows nothing of the flight training, risk mitigation, mission preparation or crew concepts that made it possible to perform the duties confidently and safely. To him, I was lucky. To me, I was prepared and skilled. It all depends on your perspective and familiarity with the subject, I suppose.

Click to expand...

Biff Bam - Thank you Man! Well put. Hits the nail on the head!

FlyWright said:

When I retired from a career in flying, someone told me I was lucky I didn't crash in my 39 years and 15,000 flight hours of flight, much of it in high density areas at low altitude. This was from someone who doesn't fly and never will...knows nothing of the flight training, risk mitigation, mission preparation or crew concepts that made it possible to perform the duties confidently and safely. To him, I was lucky. To me, I was prepared and skilled. It all depends on your perspective and familiarity with the subject, I suppose.

Click to expand...

Heck, using your analogy, the guys who ROW across the Atlantic are Professionals too. Ummm. I don't think so. There is a difference between 'getting away with it' and being professional.

You put in best in your last sentence. "It is YOUR perspective and familiarity" However, too often confidence is not met with competence.

John John was supremely confident in his Saratoga. By accounts, he flew it into the Atlantic inverted, doing around 220 knots. Hardly competent. BUT, there are scads like him around (both in the air, and on the water) who are 'deemed' to be competent. But the reality is somewhat less than desirable.

Even the "Captain" of the HMS Bounty was considered competent by his peers. Look at the fine mess he put himself (and his crew) in!

You mentioned a lot of training, planning, and industry standard regulations that you follow to have a safe flight plan.

In the Marine industry NO ONE is excused from following the rules of prudent seamanship, and the Colregs. Sailing singlehanded for many days violates SO many rules, nevermind common sense. However this post cries out for 'special recognition' for someone who does exactly the wrong thing.

How about we nominate him for a 'Nobel Prize'? Seems you don't have to actually DO anything to get one of those anyway.

"There is some controversy about the legality of sailing single-handed over long distances. The International Maritime Organization navigation rules require that "Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."[21] Single-handed sailors can only keep a sporadic lookout, due to the need to sleep, tend to navigation, etc., raising the possibility of a collision with an unseen vessel"

Art said:

Hits the nail on the head!

Click to expand...

The only nail it hits is his own.

cappy208 said:

Heck, using your analogy, the guys who ROW across the Atlantic are Professionals too. Ummm. I don't think so. There is a difference between 'getting away with it' and being professional.

You put in best in your last sentence. "It is YOUR perspective and familiarity" However, too often confidence is not met with competence.

John John was supremely confident in his Saratoga. By accounts, he flew it into the Atlantic inverted, doing around 220 knots. Hardly competent. BUT, there are scads like him around (both in the air, and on the water) who are 'deemed' to be competent. But the reality is somewhat less than desirable.

Even the "Captain" of the HMS Bounty was considered competent by his peers. Look at the fine mess he put himself (and his crew) in!

You mentioned a lot of training, planning, and industry standard regulations that you follow to have a safe flight plan.

In the Marine industry NO ONE is excused from following the rules of prudent seamanship, and the Colregs. Sailing singlehanded for many days violates SO many rules, nevermind common sense. However this post cries out for 'special recognition' for someone who does exactly the wrong thing.

How about we nominate him for a 'Nobel Prize'? Seems you don't have to actually DO anything to get one of those anyway.

"There is some controversy about the legality of sailing single-handed over long distances. The International Maritime Organization navigation rules require that "Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."[21] Single-handed sailors can only keep a sporadic lookout, due to the need to sleep, tend to navigation, etc., raising the possibility of a collision with an unseen vessel"

Click to expand...

You completely miss the point, but at the same time chose examples to support it. The issue here is being prepared for the curves that are thrown you. A lack or training and preparation and overconfidence in his abilities is what got John Kennedy killed. A lack of preparation and over-confidence/poor judgement of the Captain is what sunk the Bounty.

Not maintaining a watch? You ignore the electronic sentry equipment available to alert a crew to potential collision threats. They are used in aviation also to call a threat to the crew's attention. AIS is effective in identifying a threat and alerting the crew long before it becomes an issue. Granted, it does not alert for small non-AIS vessels and flotsam, but it's a significant improvement to the methods of long ago. Your interpretation of the rules is neither official or final. It's just your opinion.

I suppose there will always be nay-sayers and folks who, even though they have never done anything even close to the task, will criticize the achiever and the methods used to complete it successfully. I get it.

FlyWright said:

I suppose there will always be nay-sayers and folks who, even though they have never done anything even close to the task, will criticize the achiever and the methods used to complete it successfully. I get it.

Click to expand...

Well said!

cappy208 said:

Even the "Captain" of the HMS Bounty was considered competent by his peers. Look at the fine mess he put himself (and his crew) in!
"

Click to expand...

Actually, he was extremely competent. Certainly, Bligh was a better navigator than any captains today. He did after all navigate a 20 ft longboat through barely charted seas something like 4000 miles....
His people skills, OTOH, may be a debatable issue.

healhustler said:

Well said!

Click to expand...

x2

bligh said:

Actually, he was extremely competent. Certainly, Bligh was a better navigator than any captains today. He did after all navigate a 20 ft longboat through barely charted seas something like 4000 miles....
His people skills, OTOH, may be a debatable issue.

Click to expand...

I was not referring to the Master of the 'original' a Bounty. I was referring to to 'Captain' of the replica that sailed into hurricane Sandy and got himself killed along with a deckhand (amazingly enough) Who was a direct descendant of Fletcher Christian!

I don't disagree with single handling...but to be fair...

Are Single-Handed Sailors in Conflict with the Rules?

Steve Barefoot knew the answer to this question by pointing out that sailing single-handed around the world would be in violation of Colregs-Part B, Section I, Rule 5- Conduct of Vessels in any Condition of Visibility which states: "Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight as well as by hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision." Steve is backed up by a 1984 court decision.
Capt. Matt
In other words, if single-handed sailing prevents one from maintaining a "proper lookout" as defined by the Rules, the very act is negligent. Single-handers beware.

Single-Handed Sailing - BoatSafe.com

I doubt that those 15,000 flight hours were done for days at a time without proper rest, with a known defective important part of the plane, into storms, without a copilot and intentionally with marginal fuel supply and without air traffic control support.
But heck if You did I'm happy I no longer have to travel much by air.

There is a definite east - west thing going on here. just sayin'

Capthead said:

There is a definite east - west thing going on here. just sayin'

Click to expand...

Absolutely. What some people like to do, is to validate their existence. No problem with that. But, it shouldn't 'need' the encouragement or congratulations of others to make the validation more 'valid'.

Nevermind the concept of not being safe (or risking injury to others) in the process.

I am all for people doing what 'makes them happy'. Just don't look for others support to make your decisions! And, the whole thread started out with the premise of 'how to give special recognition' for something that is inherently unsafe, and shouldn't be encouraged.

I think Squirrelmen are an awesome thing to watch. BUT, I certainly won't bother jump into a suit any time soon.

Indeed

Blah, blah, blah. People have been singlehanding across oceans for centuries if not millennia. No amount of whining or spouting of colregs here is going to change it (and shouldnt.) If your not up to the task of singlehanding across oceans, don't do it.

bligh said:

Blah, blah, blah. People have been singlehanding across oceans for centuries if not millennia. No amount of whining or spouting of colregs here is going to change it (and shouldnt.) If your not up to the task of singlehanding across oceans, don't do it.

Click to expand...

As some one pointed out to me, that sounds like the drunk driver defense.

"I've been doing it for years and never had an accident your honor."

Capt.Bill11 said:

As some one pointed out to me, that sounds like the drunk driver defense.

"I've been doing it for years and never had an accident your honor."

Click to expand...

It's not a defense, really, as much as it's just a fact.

I wonder how single seat fighters get across the ocean.

There are some who simply don't have the breath of experience to know what they don't know.

Wxx3 said:

I wonder how single seat fighters get across the ocean.

There are some who simply don't have the breath of experience to know what they don't know.

Click to expand...

They get across the ocean at around 400 + knots. In one watch. Often stopping at intermediate fueling points. And when the mission/delivery is over they get a rest period.

There is a difference between a one day event, ( your example) and sustained sleep deprived, incapacitating non watch standing vessel operation on a weeks long transit.

The strange thing (as evidenced by quite a few responses on this thread) the ENTIRE career I have trained for regarding this topic stress another level of action. But, somehow people feel they 'know' better because someone else has 'gotten away' with it.

Is it possible to make a singlehanded extended voyage? Sure! Is it possible to make an extended single handed voyage LEGALLY? No.

Is it ok to encourage other
newbies who are using this forum to garner information about 'trawlers' and voyaging by giving out 'poor' perceptions about what is actually an illegal action?

What particularly irritates me is the continued prattle heard at Marinas and Yacht Clubs amongst sailboaters. Sailboats have the right of way...... Then they close the Colregs book.

Just like with sailboaters, power boaters need to KNOW Colregs too (and abide by them).

After approximately 18 hours senses ARE degraded. After approximately 30 hours no amount of 'cat naps' restores the cognitive ability.

It's nice to say: what others don't know, they don't know. In this case it's true!

This topic took 75 responses until one person brought up this issue! That right there should be indicative of the problem. Now with 170 responses, there are still about 3to 1 respondents who 'just don't get' what the issue is.

Wxx3 said:

There are some who simply don't have the breath of experience to know what they don't know.

Click to expand...

As apparently there are those that have gotten away with something and don't have the breath of experience to know what they don't know as well.

Hey guys...

There are dangers in life at every turn! To say that a person can no longer take their boat single handed across ocean seems "politically correct" but a direct assault on civil liberties. Of course there are ways to be a bit more careful regarding ocean crossing, and of course single handed crossing sets-up perils that might be avoided by other(s) being aboard. But having one or more others aboard also develops its own set(s) of dynamics as to why and how life, limb, and property might become in peril or even completely lost. We can always be-more-careful in everything we do… but there has to be a limit placed upon this be-more-careful BS; or else that very phrase will consume our every hour of every day! Unchain me!!!

IMHO, especially with today's hi-tech panorama of warning devices that are available to awaken a slumbering Captain, it is OK to do as Richard did so successfully; or unsuccessfully by being lost at sea if that were to be the case – which it surely wasn’t! That said, it is not a life ambition of mine to do as he did... I also do not desire to climb the alps! But, that's just me. The chances of Richard and his boat getting into trouble during that voyage were substantial for sure; would have been substantial with another aboard too. I'm confident he knew that from the get-go. Fact that he decided to do it "his-way" IMO is his right!

In so far as Richard’s deed possibly afflicting (hitting and sinking) another boat out in the ocean… how many boats small enough (similar to Richard’s) do you feel are cruising around out in the ocean?? Besides the word NONE… maybe we could say chances probably stand at somewhere near .000001%. More chances of hitting million dollar lotto than Richard hitting another boat small enough to afflict damage or life loss to others. If his KK hit a liner… the question would have lingered for eternity… what ever happened to Richard and his boat???

When it gets so “politically correct” that I/you can’t live some of the items in my/our life the way I/we feel like living them… color me (and maybe you) gone!

Richard, congratulations in your successful single handed broad-sea crossing. That’s not for me in boat your size… but, my thumb’s up for you!

That he crossed doesn't concern me. That he is roundly congratulated by other boaters who make him out as some kind of hero does.


PS: It is a stretch comparing the crossing to fighters crossing in a few hours and probably in pairs.