Wide Open Throttle
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
I gather the question is why not use wet liners? It comes down to weight. Without liners, the cylinder itself is structural and helps hold the cylinder head to the main bearings, which are trying hard to separate themselves due to gas pressures. Wet liners require the block to be structurally stronger as then the liner is not structural.
Dry liners have problems with dimensional stability and poor heat transfer.
And in mid range engines, most engines serve a full life without needing repair to the bores, so not much advantage in replaceable liners.
Andy G
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Great thread.
I have often wondered if there was a real benefit in running my old Ford FL 120's wide open.
The times I have tried it all I got was lots of unburnt blue smoke from the exhausts, the engine wailing fit to bust and some very nasty fumes being drawn up onto the flybridge.
My very non mechanical decision was tht as the boat and engines were very happy at 1600-1700rpm, and had been so for 30 odd years, best to let them be. This is something my crew wholeheartedly endorses.
As for the argument that running the poor old things at WOT just in case one day you may need it, I don't think a Ford Lehman running at WOT could provide my 12 ton IG with any more power or speed than when running at 2200rpm, except to provide more blue smoke and noise.
As has been said by a few posters here the old FL120's had some inherent weaknesses, so to me it's just common sense not to push them too hard, for such a questionable return.
I have often wondered if there was a real benefit in running my old Ford FL 120's wide open.
The times I have tried it all I got was lots of unburnt blue smoke from the exhausts, the engine wailing fit to bust and some very nasty fumes being drawn up onto the flybridge.
My very non mechanical decision was tht as the boat and engines were very happy at 1600-1700rpm, and had been so for 30 odd years, best to let them be. This is something my crew wholeheartedly endorses.
As for the argument that running the poor old things at WOT just in case one day you may need it, I don't think a Ford Lehman running at WOT could provide my 12 ton IG with any more power or speed than when running at 2200rpm, except to provide more blue smoke and noise.
As has been said by a few posters here the old FL120's had some inherent weaknesses, so to me it's just common sense not to push them too hard, for such a questionable return.
supertramp
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Your comment is technically correct but an engine without liner is only three times overhoul possible.We have here in the Jungle and with Revolucion no new engines and must repair the old again . We have 12 middle Trucks.
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Norbert
FF
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A liner allows the engine to be overhauled , left in place and parts changed out .
A kit will run $1000-$1500 and will include cylinder pistons , bearings and of course gaskets.
A rebuild is required for solid blocks , the engine removed and a boring machine redoes the cylinders , crank and cam bearing seats..
On a truck today a bigger diesel like a DD 50 or more common 60 will go 1,300,000 miles before the first overhaul is required.
This assumes OK maint and on time oil changes.
A kit will run $1000-$1500 and will include cylinder pistons , bearings and of course gaskets.
A rebuild is required for solid blocks , the engine removed and a boring machine redoes the cylinders , crank and cam bearing seats..
On a truck today a bigger diesel like a DD 50 or more common 60 will go 1,300,000 miles before the first overhaul is required.
This assumes OK maint and on time oil changes.
OP
OP
Nomad Willy
Guru
Andy G,
No one should be running their engines at WOT unless they are set up right and in good condition.
FF,
Sounds like Marin would do well w Detroit Diesels. Wouldn't need to worry about wearing them out and I know he'd run'em right and maintain them right. And he likes heavy stuff. He even likes an engine that roars. Well one that has lots of athorative noise. Said as much when I suggested he put two small engines in his boat. No little wimpy little engines for him. Yup DDs would be fine.
Ski,
Good on liners. I had them on my Willard (w Perkins) at first and they were showing signs of weeping. Poor heat transfer is not good there. I bailed and got a new dry liner engine.
No one should be running their engines at WOT unless they are set up right and in good condition.
FF,
Sounds like Marin would do well w Detroit Diesels. Wouldn't need to worry about wearing them out and I know he'd run'em right and maintain them right. And he likes heavy stuff. He even likes an engine that roars. Well one that has lots of athorative noise. Said as much when I suggested he put two small engines in his boat. No little wimpy little engines for him. Yup DDs would be fine.
Ski,
Good on liners. I had them on my Willard (w Perkins) at first and they were showing signs of weeping. Poor heat transfer is not good there. I bailed and got a new dry liner engine.
No one should be running their engines unless they are set up right and in good condition.
Maintaining and taking proper care is key, then understanding your specific engine and it's recommended operating range and time. The manufacturers know what they designed the engine to be able to do. Follow their guidelines.
supertramp
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On your U.S. highways, but not in our country.
500,000 Km are a good result here
________________
Norbert
pilothouse king
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- 15' Hobie Power Skiff w/90hp Yamaha-owned 28 years. Also a 2001 Bayliner 3788 that I took in trade
I-75, 595, OR I-95 in Miami. No matter how fast you go, somebody will pass you.
155mph(CLK 55 AMG cabrio) is the best I've managed ,then was passed by a pack of sportbikes with girls on the back like I was sitting still!. They must have been doing 200, in a light rain, on a Friday night, in fairly heavy traffic, as they disappeared over the horizon.
Once in Miami back in the good ole days, a Highway Patrolman caught me, and offered me cash for the car(1972 280 SE 4.5)-on the spot. No tickets yet.
On the other hand , we were waiting and waiting for a Captain to show up from Ft. Lauderdale for a seatrial in Miami. Waited, waited, waited. Turned out he was in jail. Apparently the Highway Patrol thought that he should had noticed him with the lights and sirens on-for 9 miles behind him at 100 mph. Sigh, kid's , Vettes, and their cell phones.
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HopCar
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My engine is rated at 210 hp. The same block is used to produce close to 300 hp. I don't worry about running at WOT.
Delfin
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Just a thought, but if you install an EGT gauge you will find that you can hit peak temperatures at around 75% of rated horsepower, which means there is zero reason ever to go to WOT unless you want to satisfy yourself you can with the prop pitch you have.
I've always likened WOT settings to see what will happen to when I was encouraged to go into a crevasse on a glacier to practice climbing out. I always declined, figuring I would rather concentrate on getting out when I accidentally fell in rather than purposely did.
I've always likened WOT settings to see what will happen to when I was encouraged to go into a crevasse on a glacier to practice climbing out. I always declined, figuring I would rather concentrate on getting out when I accidentally fell in rather than purposely did.
We run our engines at cruise at 1650 rpm. The manual's listed rpm for 120 hp is 2,500. The rpm band we were advised to stay in by a lot of knowledgeable people is 1500-1800. So we're right in the middle of that. That power setting with our props gives us an EGT reading of a bit under 600 degrees F. which is the same EGT reading used by the previous owners judging by the markings one of them put on the EGT dials.
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I-75, 595, OR I-95 in Miami. No matter how fast you go, somebody will pass you.
155mph(CLK 55 AMG cabrio) is the best I've managed ,then was passed by a pack of sportbikes with girls on the back like I was sitting still!. They must have been doing 200, in a light rain, on a Friday night, in fairly heavy traffic, as they disappeared over the horizon.
Once in Miami back in the good ole days, a Highway Patrolman caught me, and offered me cash for the car(1972 280 SE 4.5)-on the spot. No tickets yet.
On the other hand , we were waiting and waiting for a Captain to show up from Ft. Lauderdale for a seatrial in Miami. Waited, waited, waited. Turned out he was in jail. Apparently the Highway Patrol thought that he should had noticed him with the lights and sirens on-for 9 miles behind him at 100 mph. Sigh, kid's , Vettes, and their cell phones.
Wifey B: We don't do that on the highways. We're up to ten mph over the speed limit in some places and five in others but that's our top speed on the roads. I know it seems odd to have cars that are capable of 180 mph or so and never top 80 but we're ok with it. Not going to put the lives of others at risk. Then why have such cars? Heck if I know. We like them. They're cool.
OP
OP
Nomad Willy
Guru
Marin,
I got that from a post made by you several years ago saying you were burning 3gph on each engine. Since six is all you can consume w a Lehman that equates to a 50% load.
EGT is a good tool. I'd get one quickly if I felt the need.
I got that from a post made by you several years ago saying you were burning 3gph on each engine. Since six is all you can consume w a Lehman that equates to a 50% load.
EGT is a good tool. I'd get one quickly if I felt the need.
Yeah, I'm not sure how accurate consumption estimate really is. I arrived at that number by using a "rule of thumb" formula we were given when we bought the boat by the head of engineering at Northern Lights/Lugger.
Going by the fuel gauge that reads the day tank, we are using more like 5 gph. However, using a fuel gauge to judge fuel consumption is sort of like using Stonehenge to predict the weather. It may be close, but it probably isn't.
Andy G
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Going by the fuel gauge that reads the day tank, we are using more like 5 gph. However, using a fuel gauge to judge fuel consumption is sort of like using Stonehenge to predict the weather. It may be close, but it probably isn't.
5 gph, is that for each engine? surely not.
No, the combined total. Both engines normally feed from the center 60 gallon day tank, and that tank is the one that has a fuel gauge at the helm. Our weekend cruises into the islands tend to run about six hours round trip, and by the gauge we use about 15 gallons each three hours. Thus the 5 gph figure.
The engine fuel return line valves are set to return to the day tank although FL120s return so little fuel the joke is that you could let the return lines dump straight into the drip pans and the fuel would evaporate before it became a problem.
The four 85 gallon saddle tanks that gravity feed (via manual valves) the day tank have sight gauges but they are pretty much worthless for estimating fuel usage except in really broad terms.
FF
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Then why have such cars? Heck if I know.
Cars are sold worldwide , some places 150mph is just fine.
Cars are sold worldwide , some places 150mph is just fine.
ronlord
Senior Member
How about fighting a 10-15 knot current on the Niagara River? We run our CAT 3116 at WOT for about 10-15 minutes to clear the the mouth of the river into Lake Erie. Sure, we can take the Black Rock bypass canal, but that is a pain, one lock and two lift bridges as opposed to a straight shot out to the lake. We have the power, so why not use it?
ronlord
Senior Member
Not quite, it's about 15 miles down river.
OP
OP
Nomad Willy
Guru
ronlord,
You don't "fight" current. You either plan better or run along at a good speed for your boat and engine or go to plan B ... if you have one.
I've run for hours at less than 3 knots bucking the current and then in another hour run at 10 with the current.
You don't "fight" current. You either plan better or run along at a good speed for your boat and engine or go to plan B ... if you have one.
I've run for hours at less than 3 knots bucking the current and then in another hour run at 10 with the current.
Scary
Guru
Your right some engines are better than others
The old Detroit's for all their faults were engines designed to run hard and be put away wet. If your look at the size of castings for the heat exchangers and manifolds and mounted hardware it is obviously built for the long run. The engines were modular and can be built asymmetrical, the four cylinder 453 uses a balance shaft to smooth the inherent four cylinder vibration, I believe the twin does as well. They are large engines for there rated horsepower. The draw back of the 53 series is they have 4 valve heads that usually need replacement around 8000 hrs. This was the last configuration of the so called two stroke Detroit's. I've owned three cylinder, ' V6 and inline four versions of this engine. I have never had one fail to start and give me another hard day of work. The Detroit's are a true industrial engine. The JD is an another example of an industrial engine converted from a tractor engine. Typically we felt that 8000hrs was the useful working life of a JD backhoe, Usually the engine was still going strong but the rest of the tractor was getting lose and transmissions and shuttles were ready to go. The idle vibration was annoying but once off idle they are a lot more pleasant to listen to than the Detroit. We used these in lifts, loaders and backhoes. The 3208 Cat and 330B Cummins are engines that were designed for somewhat lighter duty. The 3208 was used in light duty Ford trucks and the 330B started out as a AG pump engine. The 3208 has worked out very well as a marine engine and has proven it self over time. Time will tell if the 330B has the same creds.
ronlord
Senior Member
Well, if you want to shoot the Niagara into Lake Erie, you have to fight. The river is at is narrowest width right at the Peace Bridge, and the water never slows down on it's way to Niagara Falls. There is a canal that runs parallel to the river to avoid the current, but we would rather just run straight to the lake and skip the lock and lift bridges.
2800 rpm - 4 knots against the current
1600 rpm - 17 knots with the current
It's the only time I ever use all 300 hp that our CAT has to offer. Most of our cruising is done at 1600-1800.
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
I think the Niagra river only runs one way. Hard to plan for that. Here on the coast most currents flip with the tide, so with good planning you can time to ride it. Although I often screw that up and buck it anyway. Hate that.
