120hp Lehman lube

Well the reason I went with synthetic* motor oil was because it has better lubrication, it has anti-foaming properties to 3000 rpm and I can only do 2500,**ab\nd I had a very long detailed discusion with th e old(er) and very experienced tech guys at BW in Rowley, Ma. We talked about foaming and motor oil and synthetic and we decided synthetic was a much better lube choice TODAY.
Actually I also consulted FF* Fred and he also supported synthetic.
Fred* hope you recall that discussion at Yankee Boatyard. I miss your honesty and candor hope you're doiing well.
I think I made a great choice .
Being an engineer I could discuss thiss to infinitem. Howevcer I think I'm done with my "argument".
Cheers my trawler friends.
Jay

So given that the Velvet Drive manual states that EITHER 30w oil or DEXTRON tranny fluid can be used......what is the downside of using the Dextron?

Nomadwilly asked what the failure modes of the BW tranny was.
I submitted for your consideration that ENGINE ALIGNMENT is the cause of most tranny failures you will hear about in trawlers....which has nothing to do with an inherent failure of the tranny itself UNDER NORMAL OPERATING CONDITIONS.

R.

Only downside would be one more fluid to carry on board. When I bought my boat, the PO used straight 30 W in everything. Main engine (lehman 135), tranny and genset. I now use straight 40W in the main, 30W in the genset and Dexron in the tranny. No big deal to carry the different oils.

"So given that the Velvet Drive manual states that EITHER 30w oil or DEXTRON tranny fluid can be used......what is the downside of using the Dextron?"

The only downside I see is that motor oil is a better lubricant.*I only know this because if my time working at a bearing company.

At the higher rpms that gas engines run at the tranny needs the anti-foaming properties that dextron contains. I'm assuming BW engineers did their homework and know that non-foaming dextron lubricates better than foamy motor oil.

And while it's true that engine alignment is a huge cause of tranny bearing failures, I submit that since motor oil (or synthetic even better) has superior lubrication qualities that an "out of alignment" *tranny can likely survive longer. That is MY opinion based on my knowledge.

Will the tranny fluid change be any different if using oil vs Dextron?

How many engine hours are you changing tranny lube ?

R.

The manual for our Velvet Drives states that only ATF (Dexron) should be used in them. Later manuals apparently added the bit about using lube oil but from what I've been told by our diesel shop and a marine gear transmission specialist, ATF is still the preferred lubricant for a Velvet Drive. As I understand it there are restrictions that apply when using lube oil. There are no restrictions when using ATF.

The bit about lube oil being a better lubricant for transmissions makes no sense to me since it's not like motor oil was invented after ATF. When Borg Warner--- a company I suspect knows a thing or two about transmissions--- created the Velvet Drive they could have used lube oil, ATF, whale oil, or spit as the lubricant since they all existed at the time. The fact that they chose ATF and only added the bit about using lube oil later (with restrictions) tells me that they chose ATF for a reason. If someone wants to armchair theorize about lube oil being a better lubricant for automatic transmissions (all the ones in our vehicles use ATF, by the way), that's fine since it will be their overhaul bill not mine.

On the advice of our diesel/transmission shop we change the ATF in our transmissions every couple of years, so say every 200 to 300 hours. You certainly want to change it before it starts looking dirty--- losing its pink color. If you run lube oil in your Velvet Drive I have no clue when it should be changed nor does out shop since they don't recommend it.

And for the armchair crowd, here's one you can ponder.* Our Range Rover, as well as a couple other 4wd vehicles I've dealt with, uses ATF as the lubricant in the transfer case.* Not gear oil.* Why?* Because they have determined that ATF acutally does a better lubricating job in this application than gear oil.* Go figure.

-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 8th of September 2010 10:17:13 AM

ralphyost wrote:

Will the tranny fluid change be any different if using oil vs Dextron?

How many engine hours are you changing tranny lube ?

R.

Click to expand...

I am changing every other season, which for me ends up being 150 or so hours right now.

" Later manuals apparently added the bit about using lube oil"

Not apparently, they put it in writing.

I had a Dodge with a manual tranny that specified ATF. That was becasue the clearances were too tight for motor oil or gear lube.*It would not shift with gear oil or motor oil.

"The bit about lube oil being a better lubricant for transmissions makes no sense to me"

Like I said it only makes sense to me because I worked with many bearing design and development engineers. The simple fact was bearings in ATF had a horrible life span comapred to bearings in motor oil.*They all cringed when they had to work on an application*where the bearing was in ATF. That is real life. Not armchair.

Sure ATF works. Use it if you'd like. There are other choices today depending upon application.


*

"The manual for our Velvet Drives states that only ATF (Dexron) should be used in them. Later manuals apparently added the bit about using lube oil but from what I've been told by our diesel shop and a marine gear transmission specialist, ATF is still the preferred lubricant for a Velvet Drive. As I understand it there are restrictions that apply when using lube oil. There are no restrictions when using ATF."

Quoting directly from the Velvet Drive manual, dated 8-82, it states on page 11:

Type F Dexron and other hydraulic fluids which meet Detroit Diesel Allison Division of General Motors Corp specifications for type C3 oils are recommended for use in all Velvet drive marine gears.
Lubricating oils which are recommended for us in diesel engines and fall within the Allison specifications for C3 oils may be used in all Velvet drive marine gears if the engine RPM does not exceed 3000 RPM. SAE #30 is preferred. SAE #40 is acceptable if high operating temperatures are anticipated. Multi viscosity oils such as 10-40W are not acceptable. The first choice is SAE-API service class "CD" oils. The second choice is SAE-API service class "CC" oils.
The equivelent DOD* mil specs are:
CD MIL-L-21046
CC* MIL-L-45199

Detroit Diesel Allison Division of General Motors Corp developed the C3 specifications for oils to be used in their hydraulic automatic and power shift* transmissions used in heavy duty or severe service conditions.These oils are very well suited for use in all Velvet drive marine gears.

My Hurth tranny manual says use ATF. It is quite common that industrial hydraulic fluids are indeed motor oils (Cat), but so stipulated in the book. In a hydralic pump like a transmission, there is more to longevity than bearing life - try seals, valves, temperature shedding and internal pressure guidelines. For the transmissions we are discussing, the manufacturer warranties his product if used according to the book.* Lots of thought, testing*and experience goes into the oil seleection. And don't forget to change the filter.

The most overlooked tranny item is the HX. No matter what fluid you use, let that HX get dirty and you are courting disaster. FYI, I shoot my transmissions with an IR gun routinely during operation. If you don't have a temperature gauge, I recommend the IR gun technique.

" I shoot my transmissions with an IR gun routinely during operation. If you don't have a temperature gauge, I recommend the IR gun technique."

Hey Tom
Do you mark a spot on the tranny to which you hit with the IR gun so that you are making a consistent measurement each time? What area of the tranny do you measure heat ?
R.

"For the transmissions we are discussing, the manufacturer warranties his product if used according to the book.* Lots of thought, testing*and experience goes into the oil seleection."

Yes I dod consider all that and like I said I had discussions with the oldtimers at the local distributor before I made my choice.

*

Ralph, I take my tranny's temperature at the inlet and outlet fittings of the heat exchanger. Those fittings are plated steel and they have nice flat surfaces so I feel I am getting consistant readings. I also do a "feel" with my hand on the side of the sump. "Warm to the touch" is my criteria there again after my discussion with the VD (Velvet Drive) guys. I realize that is very subjective but I use it as a reality check.

jleonard wrote:Sure ATF works. Use it if you'd like. There are other choices today depending upon application.*

Click to expand...

So you're saying that all the transmission manufacturers and vehicle manufacturers are wrong and you're right?* Guess what---- I'm sticking with the people who've been designing and building transmissions for longer than I've been alive.* Armchair theories and shade-tree mechanics are fine as long as my wallet doesn't depend on their "experience."* But when it does, I think I'll take the advice of Borg Warner, ZF, etc. and use what they tell me to use.

"So you're saying that all the transmission manufacturers and vehicle manufacturers are wrong and you're right?*"

Never said that Marin. Re-read my posts and you'll see that.

Of course you said that Jay. You said that because of your experience at some bearing house you discovered that engine lube oil (specifically 5W30) and w some amount of synthetic oil added was far better at lubricating bearings than ATF.

For trawler use, ie RPM less than 3000, DA BOOK says that either 30W oil or Dexron can be used.

Pick your poison. BOTH are correct AND endorsed by the manufacturer.

R.

That's true Ralph. How'ed we ever get started pic'in on Jay then? Very sorry Jay. That IS true and I even knew it but most "experts" do recommend ATF. AND I do think your 5W30 lube oil synthetic blend MAY be better in the BW but BW does not recommend a multi-vis oil. Ralph said 30W and I think he's right. The viscosity improvers put in multi-vis oils may not be good for clutches or some other part of the transmission. I think VIs are not good in engine lube oil either unless they are NEEDED (as in very cold weather (and now synthetics are better for that)) Then they may become a beneficial evil. I think Sabb or Audi voids warranties if one uses MV oil. Can anyone confirm that? Another thing these "blend" oils may not have very much synthetic component at all. What's required for them to be able to put the "blend" label on the oil? Five percent synthetic stock?I'd lean to 100% synthetic like Mobile 1 and the 100% synthetic may not have any VIs at all as the properties of the base stock flows at the multi-vis rating without VIs.

Like most of these kinds of armchair disussions this one is pretty meaningless in the light of reality. ATF or lube oil, a Velvet Drive is going to fail and need an overhaul long before the wear difference between the two lubricants is going to make one iota of difference.

All the failure of Velvet Drives I've heard about--- and I've heard about a lot of them because it's not all that good of a transmission--- have been due to factors that had nothing to do with bearing wear. Clutch plate failures, spring failures, shifter failure, heat exchanger failure and subsequent contamination of the transmission with salt water--- bearing wear is the least of a VD owner's worrys assuming he changes the fluid to a sensible schedule.

Marin,Well.........It's not every day someone calls my posts "meaningless". It looks like your'e trying to wrap this up, come to a conclusion and get on w something "meaningful". I think this thread has developed into a very meaningful discussion. But then I like this kind of subject matter. How to operate your boat, what equipment to use and how to use it are about as meaningful as we get. I think it's your personality type. You don't like things undecided. You like things decided. I like things undecided as it presents options. Lots and lots of options. And so many things to discover while considering the options and exciting new options then come to be considered. I think you try and end meaningful discussions so a decision can be made and you feel comfortable AFTER decisions have been made * *...not before. For me when a decision has been made it's like the end of a movie, a bit like death, game over * *...the end.


"All the failure of Velvet Drives I've heard about have been due to factors that had nothing to do with bearing wear. Clutch plate failures, spring failures, shifter failure, heat exchanger failure and subsequent contamination of the transmission with salt water--- bearing wear is the least of a VD owner's worrys assuming he changes the fluid to a sensible schedule."



I believe I covered this some time back. Why are you posting on this thread if you feel it's meaningless?


That's a good point Marin about the heat exchanger. I just replaced the zincs in my engine heat exchanger but found none on the transmission HE. I should probably replace it occasionally. How long should they last. One should think about such things and preferably in a timely manner. But if you don't think it's meaningful perhaps someone else will shed light on this operational issue.

My background involves the mining heavy equipment business.**An operating mandate is that every shift the engine, hydraulic and transmission oils are checked by the operator. Not only for level but color. Water migration will turn most any natural lube oil milky. Some synthetics will not clearly show (some are too hydrophobic) the early signs of water intrusion.

When cruising, I check my lubes every AM, out of habit I guess and it says to do so in the book. I love ATF because if burned it smells funny and if any water migration occurs it is no longer pink.

Most modern day ATFs are indeed wonderful lubes but more importantly they match the manufacturers spin rates (anti foam) and internal valve viscosity (pressure and flow design) requirements. Some 30 weight lube oils do too, but it again comes down to the design criteria each manufacturer applies.

And no heavy equipment or marine engine*manufacturer I know of (Cat, Cummins or MTU) will lengthen the oil change out period if synthetics are used during the warranty period. This applies*for both IC engines and hydraulic systems.

Cat offers lifetime (between 7500 to 15,000 hrs on some "main" engine/drive train related components - negotiable of course through a MARC)*warranties on new and rebuilds in my business. This pretty well precludes the use of synthetics, unless the very expensive Cat branded synthetic of course.*Since synthetics cost*more purchase $$ and with change out intervals the same as dino lube, big mining equipment users do not favor synthetics. Cat is trying to generate branded synthetic sales by offering longer change out periods when using the Cat SOS oil monitoring program. This will be interesting to see how it plays out.

So how many of you do different than the manufacturer recommends? If so, why. *It can't be for money whne comparing ATF to 30 wt. Maybe it is just believing the "mouse milk" (thanks to rickB) sellers. Or you use AlgaeX magnets etc.

Please note I have not said that synthetics are not used nor recommended. In* many applications they are teh right thing - particulary auto or motorcycle racing,**turbines or very cold weather applications. Nor have I said synthetics don't work.

I leave you with this question, what constitutes* a synthetic oil in the US? You may be surprised.


-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 10th of September 2010 12:20:27 PM

nomadwilly wrote:Well.........It's not every day someone calls my posts "meaningless". ...

*
That's a good point Marin about the heat exchanger. I just replaced the zincs in my engine heat exchanger but found none on the transmission HE. I should probably replace it occasionally. How long should they last.

Click to expand...

Eric-* I didn't mean to imply your post was meaningless.* Just that in the overall scope of things the difference in bearing wear between ATF and lube oil in*something like a slow-turning Velvet Drive*is probably meaningless.* Maybe that's the wrong word.* Maybe "irrelevant" would have*be better.* In any event, it's sort of like debating which is better, a brown rat or a gray rat whent the only really important thing is that you need a rat.

I can't speak for the kind of engine you have, but none of the curpro-nickel*lube oil and transmission fluid heat exhangers (the FL120 uses the same model cooler for both applications) have zincs in them anymore, at least not the ones I buy through Amercian Diesel.* When we bought the boat, one oil cooler on one engine was old enough to still have a zinc and a tab for a bonding wire.* The new ones I've bought don't have either of these features.*

According to one of the more experienced folks on the GB owners forum, there are heat exchangers of this type that are still made with a zinc holder and wire tab.* But I don't know who carries them.

The big engine coolant heat exchanger does*have a*zinc*in it, a replaceable pencil zinc.* I check it every six months or so, and while there is always half or more*of it left, I go ahead and replace it.* The first time I let them go a year before I checked them and while there was still some zinc there it was getting pretty small.* So*I decided on a six month check.*

My guess*is that*the*longevity of this zinc is dependent on several variables, same as the ones on your hull are.* So where six months works for me, someone else with a different boat, different engine, different elecrical setup, in a different marina might have to change it more often or less often.

There have been several discussions on the GB forum about whether or not heat exhchangers should be electrically isolated from the engine or not.* Our diesel shop says no, and in fact has advised me to remove the paint on the small oil and transmission coolers*where the mounting bracket grabs them to make an electrical connection between the exchanger and the engine.* This is perhaps one reason why these coolers no longer are made*with zincs and wire tabs--- the cooler can be tied into the boat's bonding system through the engine.

The theory that's been posed about isolating the main exchanger is that if it's connected electrically to the engine, it's possible that the cooler zinc may*end up being a sacrifical anode for much more than the cooler itself, thus eating up the zinc in a big hurry.* I can see the*validity in this theory, but there are a lot of variables that would have to line up to make this happen.* It's certainly not happening on our boat (our cooler is bolted to the engine).
*

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 10th of September 2010 12:37:03 PM

Marin

Would not the coolers be bonded to the engine by mere fact of the fluid (electrolyte) flowing through both at the same time?

Yeah, that's another factor in the debate on the GB site. Some people use that "fact" to support isolating the coolers from the engine, others use it to support connecting the coolers to the engine via the mounting brackets.

We've elected to do what our diesel shop says to do. And so far, we haven't noticed any deterioration of the coolers as a result. It makes sense to me that if a component that could be susceptible to corrosion and electrolysis can't be protected by its own anode then it should be connected to something that IS connected to an anode.

But what I understand about electricity wouldn't fit on the head of a pin so I just do what I feel the most credible people on the subject advise me to do.

My oil and tranny coolers don't have zincs, so I bonded them to the engine with wires.

Marin wrote:

All the failure of Velvet Drives I've heard about--- and I've heard about a lot of them because it's not all that good of a transmission--- have been due to factors that had nothing to do with bearing wear. Clutch plate failures, spring failures, shifter failure, heat exchanger failure and subsequent contamination of the transmission with salt water--- bearing wear is the least of a VD owner's worrys assuming he changes the fluid to a sensible schedule.

Click to expand...

Add one more to whatever you've heard about: HX slowly leaked the fluid out and salt water got in there during a 5 day cruise.* At the end of the 4th day I realized I had no power through the transmission.* By the time I realized what had happened it was totally ruined and needed to be rebuilt totally = several boat bucks and a month of no boating.* The mechanic said a pressure guage would have tipped me off by rising and falling and eventually going down permanantly.

I had used straight 30 in my 120 On a trip down The icw running 12 hrs a day I used a quart of oil about every 5 days The on the advice of a friend who owns dumptrucks I switched to 10w 40 same make oil On my next trip down the icw I used maybe 2 quarts in 200 hrs I was confused until I remamber changing to the muti vicosity oil You decide

Lots of subjects on this post - do you mean engine or transmission oil? If engine, what weight does the book call for?

motion,

You may have been using low detergent or non detergent 30W oil and when you switched to 10W40 the higher detergent oil cleaned out the ring lands permitting the rings to expand against the cylinder walls and do their job properly. Unless your engine is worn out oil consumption is controlled mostly by the rings. Most American motorists have been under the impression that any oil consumption is bad and more oil consumption is even worse. Older Jaguars burned considerably more oil than American cars and lots of 1st time Jag owners were alarmed at how much oil their Jags burned. I read or was told that the rings on Jaguars were designed to coat the cylinder walls liberally (relatively speaking) w oil for better cylinder lubrication. The engineers (it seems) felt that low wear and longer engine life was preferable to low oil consumption. So I think your reduction in oil consumption probably had little or nothing (leaning heavily toward "nothing") to do w the change in viscosity. I don't think multi viscosity oil is desirable or needed in my boat engine so I use mono-vis lube oil. Engineers argue about lots of things but one thing they all agree on is that the higher viscosity the lower the wear. Too much of a good thing is always bad so 90W oil is out but in this regard 40W is better than 30W*** .....as far as wear is concerned. If you have trouble starting your engine because the oil is too thick you've gone too far. I personally think mono-vis oil is a bit better but the difference in desirability is fly stuff. We all warm up our engines rather slowly and I've never heard of anybody having trouble cranking up their engines during start-up so I'm inclined to think we don't need viscosity improver's in our oil. And anything they put in there that's not oil dos'nt lubricate your engine so unless you need it nix on it.

nomadwilly
I had used shell rotella 30 and 10-40 I have no explaintion for the reduction in oil usages but have since gone another 800hrs with no problem My motor starts quickly and runs great What else could have happened?

We should ask FF about Delo100. I think that is one of the non-detergent oils and Shell could be marketing a non-detergent oil also and you may have been using that. I'll bet if you switched back to the 30W all would be well** ...at least for some time. I use Delo 30W and 40W. I'd use Shell if it were widely available here in Alaska but it is not. Delo 100 30W is (I think) mostly for Detroit Diesels and not much else and I don't know if Shell has a comparable product. I think viscosity improver's are better now but it could be that 10W40 oil is 10W oil with the VI added so when or if (more like when I think) the VI wears out the oil will be 10W again and when running at cruise all warmed up I'd say 10W oil is not viscous enough. I know that the VI stuff makes oil more viscous*** ...not less.

My recollection is that Chevron Delo 100 is a non or low detergent and Delo 400 is a detergent oil. I run the Delo 400 30wt in the Pacific Northwest in my Lehman 120. My engine has lived its entire life in the PNW and used Delo 400 30wt. In both La Conner, WA and Ketchican, AK I buy the Delo 400 at the Napa store.