diesel additive

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Capt.Bill11 said:
The mystery is why anybody would pour it in their fuel.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

http://cdn.teachersource.com/downloads/msds/ENV-105MSDS.pdf

Or at least save yourself some money and just buy mineral oil and add some solvent to it then dump it in your tanks.
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I read the test, and I believe in science and scientist. If people in their field show me, I will believe them. Scientist just told me that Marvel Mystery Oil is BULLSHI+. I believe them. Anybody want to buy a gallon of MMO...make ya a deal.
 
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Marin,
When I worked at a large machine shop where the machinists regularly went outside the shop on jobs most wouldn't go without MMO. They used it as a cutting oil. Use any other oil and there were problems like the tool getting hot and smoking a lot. Or the tool would chatter and leave a rough surface. Or the tool would become dull prematurely. I've never used it for anything.

I would think two cycle lube oil would make a reasonable lubricant for diesel fuel pumps. Must be a reason I've never heard of it being used for that. Inexpensive and readily available. Anybody have an opinion or knowledge on that. Notice I mentioned opinion first. Better chance of success.
 
There are times and places for even some of the bad products as long as people know the limitations. You want to break up gunk in a neglected tank or engine, that's one thing.

Maybe the best example I would give is unscrupulous people trying to see an old junker car putting sawdust in the oil or transmission fluid. I even saw an Andy Griffith episode once with that. It supposedly will quieten the sounds being made for 10 or 20 miles.

So something might help get through an immediate problem and yet be very bad for long term use.
 
A number of years ago a good friend loaned me his copy of Nigel Calder's book on diesel engines. In it he explains and illustrates the principles of a jerk-injection engine, which is what a Ford Lehman 120 is.

In this type of engine, the injection plungers that send the shots of fuel to the cylinders are lubricated in their bores solely by the fuel they are pumping. The lube oil in the sump of the FL120s injection pump is there to lube the drive mechanism in the pump. It has nothing to do with lubing the injection plungers themselves.

The plungers and the walls of the bores they run in wear down over time. It's the nature of the beast. So the better the lubricity in the fuel, the better the plungers are lubed in their bores, and the slower the wear rate will be. Which means the longer the interval will be beween injection pump rebuilds, which are not cheap.

I have no idea if today's diesel fuel contains sufficient lubricity to minimize the plunger and bore wear in the injection pumps on our engines, I know that there are people who vehemently say there is, and people who just as vehemently say there isn't.

Logic tells me that when it comes to two pieces of metal rubbing against each other at high speed, the more the friction between them can be reduced, the less wear there will be. As long as a lubricity additive doesn't seriously screw up the ignition and burn characteristics of the fuel it's in, I don't see any problem with using it. Even if all it does is reduce the friction by just a wee, tiny bit, that's still a reduction and maybe our injection pumps will go that much longer before needing an overhaul.

My logic extends only to the jerk-injection diesels in our boat. What the lubricity situation is like in other types of diesels, or newer generations of diesels, I have no idea. We don't have them. The only diesels whose longevity we have a vested interest in are the two in our boat, and they were designed in the 1950s using the very latest 1950s technology and metallurgy.:)

So if a little slippery-juice in the fuel helps them out a bit, I'm all for it.
 
Marin, What you described is the same as my GMC diesel. The IP has to have lubrication from the fuel and my IP doesn't have an oil sump either.

This is why I tried every additive sold and I'm in Los Angeles so I pretty much have every additive available here on the shelves. What that test proved my own results proved and backed up their findings. What they didn't test was ATF and I saw that fail also.

My findings today is the ULSD, what we are buying now, is adequate. Buying any additive for lubricity isn't really needed and wasn't needed in the past. Red dye was sulfur diesel, then ULSD, It never was LSD where all the IP failures occurred. I was in the SCAMD where they experimented with the low sulfur first. There was a class action lawsuit that won and I was reimbursed 600.00 for my troubles from the state of CA.

Biobor would be needed in areas where you get lots of condensation build up in your tanks. I have my own formula for that and use a product that absorbs all water and doesn't contain alcohol so I don't use biobor because I never have standing water.

I say treat the problem at the start, not after it happens.
 
Red dyed diesel fuel. Some may not know why some diesel fuel is dyed red. It is NOT because it is different than any other No. 2 diesel fuel. Diesel fuel used in over-the-road vehicles is subject to a 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax. Diesel fuel used in off-road vehicles (farm machinery, construction vehicles not driven on roads and not subject to registration) and for marine use is not subject to taxation. It is dyed red so that tax scofflaws who use it in on-road vehicles can be caught.

The fines for doing so are heavy. The penalty is $1,000 or $10/gallon, whichever is higher. The penalty for refusal to allow an inspection is $1,000. No doubt some folks take the chance using dyed diesel in their pickups. Know also that the dye can be detected long after many fill-ups.
 
catalinajack said:
Diesel fuel used in off-road vehicles (farm machinery, construction vehicles not driven on roads and not subject to registration) and for marine use is not subject to [Federal] taxation.
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Unfortunately, red-dye-diesel IS subject to state sales tax. Which in this state is pretty significant I'm sorry to say.
 
Marin said:
Unfortunately, red-dye-diesel IS subject to state sales tax. Which in this state is pretty significant I'm sorry to say.
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Federal tax is 24.4 cents for diesel (18.4 for gas) and the average state tax is 31 cents for diesel (31.5 for gas).

Highest state sales tax on diesel is Indiana at 51.3 cents. Yes, I thought it would be California too. They are only 1.7 cents lower. Lowest is Alaska at 12.7 cents. Oklahoma is second lowest at 14 cents.
 
Personally, the only advice I trust on additives is that in the operating and service manual of the engine manufacturer. Superstition, dockside urban legend, old habits, fuggedaboutit. Even some called experts, who otherwise may know a lot about the workings of engines, may still hold to some unsubstantiated superstition that was passed down to them years ago.

The continuation of the USLD lubricity myth is one example. The refiners addressed this many many moons ago, yet there are still people that think more sulfur is good, that it was the sulfur that supplied the lubricity.

Take the old school Detroits in my old Hatteras. What does Detroit have to say in their very thorough fuel specs? First and foremost, they specify maximum sulfur content, not minimum. (They do so for their newer engines as well). Secondly, the only additives they recommend is something like BioBor if the fuel is going to sit in storage exposed to moisture in the air for a long period of time.

If anyone is gonna drink snake oil on my boat, it's going to be me, not some big hunk of metal that doesn't appreciate it!

If you want to be paranoid about the fuel bogeymen, my opinion is to either 1) patronize high volume, high turnover fuel docks or 2) use a place that sells ValvTech enhanced fuel. Our last marina was both of the above, and it always amazed us and the dockmaster when someone would come in, grouse about the cost of diesel then jack it up further by adding yet another additive to the tank, worst of all MMO!
 
caltexflanc said:
my opinion is to either 1) patronize high volume, high turnover fuel docks or 2) use a place that sells ValvTech enhanced fuel. !
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We do both as well, either Valvtech or comparable in another brand. We then just add Valvtech's additive only when there are circumstances that we believe the fuel not to be equivalent. It probably isn't necessary. We've only done so twice in the past two years. Once was when we were fueled by a truck that normally did not fuel boats. The other was when the marina's diesel tank ran out of fuel while filling us and the fuel itself was not a brand we were especially comfortable with.
 
BandB said:
We do both as well, either Valvtech or comparable in another brand. We then just add Valvtech's additive only when there are circumstances that we believe the fuel not to be equivalent. It probably isn't necessary. We've only done so twice in the past two years. Once was when we were fueled by a truck that normally did not fuel boats. The other was when the marina's diesel tank ran out of fuel while filling us and the fuel itself was not a brand we were especially comfortable with.
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Valvtech did not do well on the study posted above.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf
 
rwidman said:
Valvtech did not do well on the study posted above.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf
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Prior to that study, ValvTect's primary additive products seemed to be Diesel Guard (tested) and Bio Guard. More recently, I've mostly seen Bio Guard Plus 6 (often alongside Bio Guard) with wording about improved lubricity on the label. I've often wondered whether study results (which they helped fund) influenced their product evolution.

-Chris
 
Old oil company adage about fuel/oil additives:

"Remember this. . .If there was an additive that would make one oil companies product better than their competitors, we would buy it, put it in our products and advertise the hell out of it and watch the money come rolling in!!"

Most often the "Value Added" products do more harm than good!!
 
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Good advice above.

When I bought my Camargue last October, many here suggested having the tanks cleaned and fuel polished, which I did. It was worth every penny as I had zero fuel problems from S.F. to the Columbia River. They did give me this advice always keep your tanks full when possible to reduce condensation and always use a biocide additive in your fuel. He said all you have to do is look at the bottom of your fuel cap and if there are droplets of water you are almost 100% sure you have water in your tanks. He and others here have told me that being on the ocean getting tossed around is the wrong time to find out you have critters in your fuel. So I use this every time I fill and a few times during the winter.

http://www.powerservice.com/bk/

You can buy it a O’Reilly’s auto parts for about $125 a gallon.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PWS4/9080.oap?ck=Search_biocide_-1_2505&keyword=biocide
 
rwidman said:
Valvtech did not do well on the study posted above.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf
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Yeah that 7 year old amateurish study, let's run with that.

Old oil company adage about fuel/oil additives:

"Remember this. . .If there was an additive that would make one oil companies product better than their competitors, we would buy it, put it in our products and advertise the hell out of it and watch the money come rolling in!!"

Most often the "Value Added" products do more harm than good!!
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So true. I worked for Mobil many many years ago and still have friends at Exxon both from back then and having lived in Dallas for quite awhile. They just shake their heads and roll their eyes at all at the wive's tales and snake oil.
 
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rwidman said:
Valvtech did not do well on the study posted above.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf
Click to expand...

I wouldn't put much faith in that unscientific study.

ASTM D6079 (the HFRR test standard) itself states that no correlation between the HFRR test and field performance of diesel injection systems has been determined.

In fact no correlation can be made between D6079 and D6078, the SLBOCLE test.

It even goes further and has annexed ISO 12156 discussing the incomparability of the different effect of wear scar that occurs on the ball when lubricity additives are present.

BTW, there are 55 ASTM tests associated with ASTM D975, the Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oil.

The fact that they used a fuel that had a HFRR lubricity rating of 636 for a baseline casts further suspicion in the whole test to me.

I know its not your report Ron. I'm just sayin'...

For the record. I have used Biobor JF on a questionable fuel load when I had a known water ingress problem due to an o ring leak of my fuel filler.
 
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caltexflanc said:
So true. I worked for Mobil many many years ago and still have friends at Exxon both from back then and having lived in Dallas for quite awhile. They just shake their heads and roll their eyes at all at the wive's tales and snake oil.
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Hah!! Me too. . Union Oil Company of California until they sold their PNW operation and moved back to California and I didn't want to move south!! Yes, I worked as a rep with the dealers and later the company station operations and was constantly monitoring them to keep the STP, Bardahl, Hilton Hyperlube and Marvel Mystery Oil out of their stores. The Snake oil products were dangerous and cost the company money every year in product liability claims. Even though we didn't make the stuff or market it, all the old dealers wanted to sell it, as a "Value Added product" because the profit margin was high.

Just before I left the company we had one claim that involved Hilton Hyperlube I believe. One of our truck stop dealers, not mine, was selling and adding it to long haul tractor engines, like Cummins and Cats, on oil changes. Cat refused to honor a warranty when they found it in the bottom of an oil pan on a failed engine. Hilton filed chapter 11 and the trucking company came after Union Oil !!
 
A truck driver told me that they would use one quart of tranny fluid to a hundred gallons of diesel fuel to clean the injectors. Anyone heard of this?
 
Knot Tide Down said:
A truck driver told me that they would use one quart of tranny fluid to a hundred gallons of diesel fuel to clean the injectors. Anyone heard of this?
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Yea, people used to recommend pouring coca cola down their carburetors to clean the fuel passages or valves or something. Somewhere, someone has done just about every stupid thing that can be done to an engine to try to solve some mystery problem.

Find your owner's manual and follow the instructions from the manufacturer.
 
George, snake oil? Well, I guess you are indeed snake oil it cuz ValvTect fuel contains lubricity improvers. Here's a quote from the ValvTect website.

[FONT=&quot]Today’s low and ultra-low sulfur diesel fuels destabilize more rapidly, offer poor lubricity, contain higher levels of moisture and are more susceptible to bacterial growth and filter plugging than higher sulfur diesel. Because sulfur helped to lubricate the fuel system, premature injector and fuel pump wear may also occur.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ValvTect Marine Premium Diesel contains BioGuard™ biocide, lubricity improver, water dispersant, corrosion inhibitor and fuel stabilizer and is specifically formulated to prevent problems caused by the reduction of sulfur content.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ValvTect Marine Diesel with BioGuard™ is "specially formulated" for your marine diesel engine. It requires no additional fuel additives to protect your engine, eliminating any risk of improper additive use and saves time and money.[/FONT]

Remember when lead was removed from gasoline? Well, lead was a lubricant as well and engine manufacturers needed to make changes to engine design, primarily hardening valve seats. This is nothing more than science denial. Next we'll hear is that dino oil is just as good and long-lasting as synthetic oil despite the fact that it is OEM-specified on many of today's vehicles. In that vein I ask you: why would any manufacturer go to the added expense of using synthetic oil in the new vehicles if there were not significant added benefit?

But, if you ordinarily use ValvTect fuel then, yes, no additive for lubricity is beneficial. The damaging effects of using ULSD without a lubricity improver may not become evident for 1000's of hours and will not be apparent from day-to-day. For example, my Lehman 120 injection pumps rely on the fuel (in part) for lubrication. They are not inexpensive to replace or rebuild. Pay me now or pay me later. Lubricity improvers are very cheap insurance, pennies per mile. It's like smoking cigarettes, it gets you in the end.

I believe diesel engines produced after 2007 take into account the use of ULSD.
 
it's my understanding that ALL ULSD has lubricity improvers added by the refiner to meet some general spec. It may be borderline....but it's an industry standard spec.

the big diesel manufacturers both suggest additives...but to my knowledge don't require them for warranty.

anyone with a new engine that is required by warranty to use additives?
 
I wish I was at my boat so I could post the page from the owner's manual where Volvo states that no fuel additives are recommended but then goes on to recommend two, Stanadyne and one other that escapes my mind at the moment. Their concern was lack of lubricity in low sulphur fuel.

So - I use the Stanadyne just to be sure.
 
Just to add to the general fray - no additives for me. If a 40 year old engine bakes it's injection pump, does anyone really think that a can of aftermarket crap would have prevented it? Sooner or later mechanical things wear out or fail and a can of spooge in the fuel or oil will not prevent it. All that extra stuff does is to lighten your wallet. "Pay me now or pay me later?" Really. Most of us will never use up a Diesel engine in our lifetimes if it's maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions. How many actually change the oil in a Simms pump at 50 hours? Change the coolant when the book says?

How many have bought new Diesel engines and used them for 10 or 20,000 hours? Honestly, give your heads a shake, use a little common sense and listen to Capt. Head if you don't like what I'm saying, save your money for fishing tackle.
 
Anybody know good or bad things about adding 2 stroke lube oil to diesel fuel?

I've never done it but it seems like an obvious fuel injector lube.
 
Low Sulphur Diesel from Shell - Australia

"Low Sulphur Diesel (LSD) - Shell Diesel 10

Shell Diesel 10 is a premium grade automotive diesel suitable for use in high speed diesel engines in both automotive and industrial applications. The diesel properties are adjusted during winter to minimise waxing in cold locations. Shell Diesel has a high cetane number to help ensure smooth running and which assists starting at temperatures well below those prevailing in Australia. In addition the lubricity of the diesel fuel is controlled and monitored to help ensure that adequate lubricity is maintained to prevent fuel pump and fuel injector wear.

Low Sulphur Diesel contains 10 parts per million (or 10mg/kg) of sulphur.

Shell Diesel 10 meets the requirements of the Australian National Fuels Quality Standards Act 2000. "
 
Having an old FL120 I was worried about the ULSD not having the same lubricating properties as the old diesel did when the engine was designed. That is why through a search I happened upon this thread. I just bought 100 gallons of diesel from a Valero station for the boat. I went to NAPA, Advance Auto, and West Marine looking for an additive that specifically addressed my concern about the decreased lubrication of the ULSD now being sold. I could not find a single product claiming to address this issue. So I emailed Valero and asked if they used some sort of additive to compensate for the low sulfur. Here is the response from Pat Troyer.

Mr. Dunsworth,

The lubricating quality of diesel fuel was affected when the EPA lowered the maximum sulfur content in diesel fuel to 15 parts per million in 2006. A test for the lubricating quality of diesel fuel was developed, a standard was established, and an additive is used to meet this standard. Valero additizes our diesel fuel to meet this standard or better.

The standard was established for diesel fuel as a whole, and these standards are incorporated into state regulations for fuels. All diesel fuel should be sold to meet this minimum standard.

Patrick Troyer
Gulf Coast Supply
work (210) 345-2611
pat.troyer@valero.com

Mr. Troyer,
Thank you for your prompt reply. Several of us with older diesels have been discussing this issue on trawlerforum.com. May I post your reply there so others may be informed as well?

Thank you,
Mike Dunsworth

I have not revealed any secrets. This is an industry standard and I do not see why you cannot share this.

Patrick Troyer
Gulf Coast Supply
work (210) 345-2611
pat.troyer@valero.comat


My conclusion is that I will not spend any more time looking for additives as it seem the industry has already taken care of the problem.
 
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