Wing Engine

Ok I did a search and can't find much on the subject of "wing engines" on a single screw Trawler. Refitting to be more precise.
I just had an occasion where I wish I had a Wing Engine on my single engine Trawler. We had gone into Princes Louisa Inlet in BC and was coming out. If any of you have been there you know that getting there is a beautiful trip up the strait with vertical cliffs up to 3000 feet on each side, and the water is up to 1900 feet deep.
So we are going along and enjoying the view when I heard a funny "new" sound from the engine room. After inspection I find that the coolant pump,(not the raw water pump) is throwing grease from it's bearings. After shutting down the engine I could wiggle the pulley back and forth. So not hard to figure out that the coolant pump on the front of the John Deere 6068 is going out. Don't have a spare and if it goes out there is no place to anchor, (don't have a rode long enough!) and these cliffs go right down at the edge of the water shear to the 1900 depth. No beaches and no place to anchor. Engine goes out you are on the rock wall on both sides.
So the question is does anyone have any experience refitting a Trawler with a Wing Engine? My boat is a 48" Kadey Krogen NS. Not a lot of extra room in the engine room after the JD and a Northern Lights 12KW gen.
Oh just as an aside we limped into Pender Harbor and found a shop that had the parts to rebuild the pump! Go figure. I asked the mechanic why he had parts to rebuild that pump way out here. He said that he maintains 3 commercial fishing boats that have the exact same engine. Nice!

Is Cabernet the old Wild Her? Sorry to hear about your mis-adventure. I would suggest giving Dennis Lawrence a call at KK Seattle. There have been a few wing engines added to KK48's.

My only advice would be to stick with a John Deere for the wing. My boat uses common parts for the Main, Wing and Generator (Lugger, John Deere and Northern Lights), which are all John Deere Blocks. Many of the pumps, impellers, filters, etc. are interchangeable. Carrying spares is easier and you can always rob parts off of one to get the other running if needed.

Good Luck,

Yes one in the same. We renamed her Cabernet. She is a great boat, and things happen, but now my wife is not crazy venturing down to Mexico without a wing. She is powered by a JD 6068 and a 12K Northern Lights gen. Thanks for the name of a person to call.

Mount an outboard on your swim platform. Or figure out how to use your genset to power your existing prop and shaft perhaps.

Adding a wing engine is going to be pretty expensive if you even have room for one. Then there is the cost benefit of it in the long run considering the potentially small chance you'll ever use it.

Pretty sure Bay Pelican has a wing engine on a KK42, that could be a good starting point. Liked the 48 displayed at Sydney Boat Show just held, star of the show imo.

Hydraulics on my 20KW genset powers my "get home" through a chain and sprocket type system on the main prop shaft. Might look into something like that.

Have you asked Krogen?

Bay Pelican, like many of the Caribbean Krogens and Nordhavns, has a wing engine. Yanmar 27 hp with its own shaft, prop (max prop) and fuel supply.

Three uses:

Steering when pulling into slip backs opposite way of main engine.
Back Up generator, the Yanama accepted a large alternator
Get home. Never needed one until started playing around with new fuel tanks. Have had air in the lines problems, perhaps now fixed.

Whatever you do, exercise the wing engine. We routinely enter/leave anchorages using the wing engine.

There was a KK44 that had a wing engine installed prior to crossing the Atlantic ocean. Maybe the owner can be reached at a KK forum. Below is an article of his crossing.

http://kadeykrogen.com/articles/pages/-sea_magazine-98.pdf

I think with a 12KW genset, Northern Lights has a front pulley and shaft setup for a hydraulic drive, or you may have enough juice to run a decent electric motor, shaft and foldable prop. You won't get much umph out of it, but it is, after all, a get home.

My eventual plan for my own get-home is a Yanmar diesel outboard on a transom bracket. The 27 HP is more than enough for 4-5 knots on my boat, ....probably four knots on yours. You can't buy then here in the US (EPA) but you can have one sent to the Islands, etc.. Expensive, yes, but not as much as a built-in get home system, and you can take it to your next boat, sell it, or even power your dinghy with it. If you had it hanging on your boat now, I'd buy it from you....so would a lot of other Krogen owners probably. My two cents.

healhustler said:

I think with a 12KW genset, Northern Lights has a front pulley and shaft setup for a hydraulic drive, or you may have enough juice to run a decent electric motor, shaft and foldable prop. You won't get much umph out of it, but it is, after all, a get home.

My eventual plan for my own get-home is a Yanmar diesel outboard on a transom bracket. The 27 HP is more than enough for 4-5 knots on my boat, ....probably four knots on yours. You can't buy then here in the US (EPA) but you can have one sent to the Islands, etc.. Expensive, yes, but not as much as a built-in get home system, and you can take it to your next boat, sell it, or even power your dinghy with it. If you had it hanging on your boat now, I'd buy it from you....so would a lot of other Krogen owners probably. My two cents.

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I think this is the best approach.

Also keep in mind that you can buy and stock a lot of spare parts before you come close to the cost of a wing engine. In the situation you encountered, having spares on board would have solved the problem, and an outboard, or even using your dinghy as a tug, would keep you away from the walls or other hazards.

Boydski said:

Is Cabernet the old Wild Her? Sorry to hear about your mis-adventure. I would suggest giving Dennis Lawrence a call at KK Seattle. There have been a few wing engines added to KK48's.

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The first thing I would do is to give Dennis a call. He really knows his stuff when it comes to Krogens both old and new. He also has the knowledge base of the entire Krogen staff and the many different configurations owners have tried.

Jim

healhustler said:

My eventual plan for my own get-home is a Yanmar diesel outboard on a transom bracket. The 27 HP is more than enough for 4-5 knots on my boat, ....probably four knots on yours.

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Bay Pelican, a Krogen 42, has a 27 hp Yanmar with a Max Prop. With the wing engine alone, she does 4 kts in normal seas. I have run across Krogen 48s and Nordhavn 46s wth 40hp wing engines. I think with a 48 Krogen I would go with a 40 hp wing engine.

>Hydraulics on my 20KW genset powers my "get home" through a chain and sprocket type system on the main prop shaft. Might look into something like that.<

This would be a true upgrade as the hyd could power a windlass , with no white smoke problems, and a bow thruster with the ON time not measured in seconds.

FF said:

>Hydraulics on my 20KW genset powers my "get home" through a chain and sprocket type system on the main prop shaft. Might look into something like that.<

This would be a true upgrade as the hyd could power a windlass , with no white smoke problems, and a bow thruster with the ON time not measured in seconds.

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And being fitted to the generator, it will probably be "exercised" often ready to go when you need it.

healhustler said:

I think with a 12KW genset, Northern Lights has a front pulley and shaft setup for a hydraulic drive, or you may have enough juice to run a decent electric motor, shaft and foldable prop. You won't get much umph out of it, but it is, after all, a get home.

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You front mount a PTO with an electric clutch directly. You have to be aware that when the PTO is engaged you may not be able to have much electrical load on the genset.

Anne Louise, a Krogen 48, has the 12 kv genset with a power take off for a get home arrangement. They mentioned that they were thinking of removing the power take off and installing a wing engine. They are currently in the Caribbean so the needs change.

Do those hydraulic units have some sort of water cooling?I have operated machinery with hydro motors and those things have huge air/air coolers.They're also not designed to operate at 100% duty cycle for hours on end.

The hydraulic system for Bay Pelican's stabilizers has a ten gallon (US) tank with a heat exchanger connected to the raw water pump on the main engine.

Bay Pelican said:

The hydraulic system for Bay Pelican's stabilizers has a ten gallon (US) tank with a heat exchanger connected to the raw water pump on the main engine.

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Thanks.I knew there had to be something keeping all that hot fluid cool.

The duty cycle will be the factor for weather extra cooling is required for hyd.

With a wing engine or hyd generator (powered from the main) the long cont. on time will need cooling.

For minor stiff , our boat has hyd steering , a full time pump pressurizes the setup , the wheel is a simple L/R valve with wooden spokes , and the AP is a Robertson that dimply opens solenoids to steer 2A fuse.

Only the surface area of the 5G or so gal aluminum tank is sufficient to cool the unit , so sez the steering system mfg.

When adding a Hyd windlass the hyd hoses were simply run thru the bilge for water cooling on the hoses , about 15-20 ft in the water.

AS the windlass is usually used at the start of the day for a few min after engine start , the cold hyd fluid is barely warm .

If we install a hyd dink hoist , again the on time would be too short to require a special heat exchanger.

KISS

Bay Pelican do you know why Anne Louise is changing out power take-off for a wing engine? Did the power take-off not work well enough? We will be heading to the Caribbean next year so I want to get this figured out.

I have been talking to Tom Button from Kadey Krogen and he said that they used to set up KK's with all of the wiring, and plumbing for the installation of a wing engine but found very few buyers had them installed. He sent me plans that they used to set up the engine room for a wing. Pretty crowded!
He also sent me some ideas that KK uses to add the power take-off from the Northern Lights gen. That to me looks like the most favorable at this point.

Wesmar Co. ( I think?) makes a hydraulic system that attaches to the main prop shaft and it's powered by the pto from a 12 KW or larger generator. About 20 grand I recall; less than the price of a small 27 hp diesel and installation and strut and folding prop, etc.

Just from my set-up's point of view-with the hydraulic chain drive off of gen set, you should address the drip-less bearing's and reduction gear's cooling/lubrication etc.. when in get home drive mode. May or may not have to make some adaptions.
dan

ulysses said:

Just from my set-up's point of view-with the hydraulic chain drive off of gen set, you should address the drip-less bearing's and reduction gear's cooling/lubrication etc.. when in get home drive mode. May or may not have to make some adaptions.
dan

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This is exactly why I've all but given up on installing a second inboard driving system. Right now, my genset relocation to the veranda gives me two other choices, one being that the crankshaft pulley of my genset is directly over the prop shaft. A small pulley on the genset, a large pulley on the shaft, and an idler pulley to produce tension is all that's necessary for a rudimentary get=home system. Still, the design doesn't consider any consequences of pulling against the side of the shaft, the effects on the PSS seal or lack of lubrication, the seal log itself, transmission bearings, or even the practicality of assuming that the main shaft and prop would not be part of the breakdown issue.

The diesel outboard with it's own day tank makes an independent system that isn't subject to main engine, electrical, fuel, or drive-line failures. Above a knot or so, the boats rudder becomes responsive and there's no need to steer the outboard, Above two knots, maybe even the auto-pilot could be engaged. If the rudder has also been damaged, there again, one has an alternative way to steer the boat. In a pinch, docking from the veranda or cockpit with hand control on the outboard might be challenging, but hardly impossible. Frankly, I don't like the idea of an outboard hanging on a stern bracket. I just can't think of anything more practical or easy to do/undo. I already have two starting batteries, a fuel supply from the main tanks, a day tank space, and a solar charger all within 6 ft. of my stern.

Larry, I'm with you an auxiliary motor hanging on the swim platform does not seem practical to me. It might be functional, but not practical. I also don't have a lot of room unless I go into my engine room and start rearranging.
Hoping we would get someone that has actually gone through an installation of a wing engine and/or the PTO take-off.

Sorry, looked up the proposal and it was 14k

Larry:
You touched on a very good point in that you can have numerous back-up systems for just about everything on a boat and sure enough it will be the point they come together or the one part that wasn't backed up that will fail. Or the one thing that they both require whether it be fuel, prop or whatever. Sometimes I think it would be better if I just towed a back up boat with me.
dan