A few of the course I had to take to get my Masters ticket among others .....
Marine Emergency Duties
ARPA
Marine Radar
Marine Emergency Duties
ARPA
Marine Radar
Hands on Training
- Thread starter psneeld
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Did the emergency duties course give you a little more sense that you'd be able to handle an emergency if one arose? To us taking the courses gave us a feeling that in the time emotions could take over and create havoc, that we'd have something concrete and non-emotional to fall back to and be more likely to be able to think clearly and do the right thing.
I took the MED -A2 course in Port Colbourne, Ontario and found it instilled a little more confidence and a lot more respect for what can go wrong. They have a huge mock steel bridge similar to a lake freighter. One of the classes involved setting the bridge on fire yhen finding your way through dense black smoke to put it out. It gave me a very healthy respect for fire and what it can do on a boat. I later took part in an exercise that set an FRP cruiser on fire and then attempted to put that out.
Some people think I am far too critical in my surveys of electrical/gasoline and or propane systems but once you realize how extremely difficult it is to put out a fire on a boat you tend to take it more seriously
Wifey B: The part that freaked me was the speed, especially if there's an accelerant. You think at first watching video that it's sped up and when you realize it's real time....wow. You don't have time to stand and think. You have to know what you are going to do.
Also, people think my hubby is crazy (well he might be but not in this situation) that we don't have any propane on board. Electric grills. Yeah, we did the fire exercise too. Real fire, real fire fighting equipment. Same facility used to train Carnival people and others. I mean just using an extinguisher was shocking to me. Not the time to learn how. You better know already. Not something we have but they also had like real fire hoses we got to try since it's set up for other than just small boats. Let's just say after that day we were tired, hot, and had some lasting images. It's the stuff nightmares are made of too. And handling all your panicked guests.
And I think you can't be too critical on that stuff. Motor doesn't run, boat doesn't leave dock. Fire starts, deep trouble.
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psneeld
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This is the kind of training I was alluding to in my start of the thread,
Until you have crawled on your hands and knees through smoke and heat...or sat in a liferaft in 5 foot seas or even sat n one all day....until you have freezing cold water up to your waist and are trying you find a leak and secure it....all the reading and talking about it seems dreamlike.
Until you have crawled on your hands and knees through smoke and heat...or sat in a liferaft in 5 foot seas or even sat n one all day....until you have freezing cold water up to your waist and are trying you find a leak and secure it....all the reading and talking about it seems dreamlike.
I think the need for some of this training needs to be put in perspective. The guy who runs his boat over to the sand bar a few times a year doesn't really need the same training as the guy who plans to circumnavigate solo.
We would also expect the person who makes his/her living in the marine industry to have a higher level of training than the part time hobbyist.
We would also expect the person who makes his/her living in the marine industry to have a higher level of training than the part time hobbyist.
Certainly some truth and the reason we wanted training. We do intend to one day cross oceans and we cross to the Bahamas often and cruise outside on the East Coast and in the Gulf of Mexico. Panama Canal coming within the next few months.
But there is also just a difference in desire to learn more. Perhaps it's youthful exuberance in our case depending on how you define youthful.
However, I must point out in regard to a couple of the areas of training. Few of the fires are off shore. Most are either at marinas or within sight of land. Time is so critical though that by the time help arrives it's a bit late. As to medical training, I would encourage some degree, at least more than I had previously. Yes, far from shore is most critical. However, some of those who encouraged me to get training are ones who have found their training to come into play in just weekend cruising. A lot around small boats, jet skis, just swimming or walking ashore from an anchorage. Perhaps it's that wooded area just an hour from home, but what about a snake bite or bee sting to someone you suddenly find out is quite allergic?
I guess even at home I feel just a little more secure knowing if something happened to a guest, I just know now what to do in the 10 minutes it takes paramedics to arrive. Or the 45 minutes if it's during the boat show. Honestly, I was a bit embarrassed that I knew so little before. But then most have at least had some type of first aid course, maybe learned CPR. My wife had those basics, but I had not.
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psneeld
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Part of the thread was also to point out that some posters here will go on and on about perfect crimping or reading the manual ad nauseum or doing this or that but never disagree with a manufacturer's recommendations...but when it comes to the most important part of the boat...the captain...they are as lax as can be...just my observation of the hypocrisy of some posters in TF.
While I value training, I do believe there is a greater problem contributing to more serious accidents than the lack of training. Alcohol. Training, unfortunately, won't make boaters more responsible. Now more responsible boaters may get more training. But we continue to have horrible accidents occurring as inebriated operators fly quickly through other boats in spite of darkness or otherwise operate as one would expect from those under the influence. Many of the accidents not attributable to the operator also involve alcohol. But then look at traffic fatalities on the road. In the US, over 10,000 lives are lost per year as a result of alcohol related accidents. I may be safer because I'm trained, but I'm definitely safer because I don't operate or allow anyone else to operate my boat while drinking. Not .08, not three drinks, not two drinks, not two hours ago. Zero. It's a personal choice, we either drink or drive but never do both. You don't have to be legally under the influence to be affected. Get to your destination for the day and drink all you wish. You look at the Biscayne Bay accident after the fireworks of the 4th. It wasn't lack of training. It was disregard for basic safety. That's why we don't go to such events. We boated more than anyone we knew when we lived on a lake but we never got out on July 4.
Yes, I'm on my soapbox, but I believe in this topic so strongly. We aren't non-drinkers. We celebrate occasionally as well as anyone. But we just don't choose to put our lives or others at increased risk.
One of the large causes of rescue operations is inexperienced sailors or those using poor judgement heading offshore in conditions they shouldn't. But part of this is encouraged even by more experienced sailors who say "go for it." It's part of an attitude of challenging the seas. I don't know if education and licensing would address that at all either.
Now I do believe the vast majority of TF'ers operate their boats responsibly. Trawler owners tend to be rather conservative. They tend not to challenge conditions and to respect the weather and the seas. But to those who do decide just to jump in, I still advise some training. Many captains do offer it. You will learn your boat's capabilities and your own. I do think Trawler owners tend to respect their own limitations probably better than any other boating group I know. Yes, you can learn it all through the college of experience but you can accelerate that with training. We felt we were years behind those our age who started down the path when they were 10 and 15 years younger. We're still amazed at the knowledge and experience of some Captains we know. But we think based on only two years of coastal boating we've accelerated things beyond that.
Some states have implemented licensing requirements but they're basically rules of the road. Of course we all thought we were great drivers of cars when we turned 16 and got our license and that even included driver's training. Now we know we really weren't. We knew the mechanics of driving but not the things learned through experience.
Interesting discussion. I don't have all the answers. But I suggest the start is alcohol and other reckless operation. Second to that I do believe we all can learn more and there are many ways to do so. Other than our health, my wife and I think of only one thing that might end our boating. That's the loss of life or serious injury of one of our guests or of another as a result of an accident with our boat. So we'll continue to try to do all we can to be as safe as possible.
Capt.Bill11
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My suspicions were confirmed, thanks OB.
You're quite welcome.
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psneeld
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Please don't bring alcohol into the discussion...that may have it's place in another discussion but it has NOTHING to do with the intention of this thread.
None of the training I was hoping people would discuss would stop TRUE alcohol related incidents (my training as a accident investigator proved to me few alcohol related incidents can be without a doubt proven to be because of alcohol solely or even remotely)....nor would it stop many of the boating accidents that wind up in the statistics.
The training I was hoping people would share is the kind that stops a long chain of events that prevents the loss of boat or life such as picking weather, choosing anchorages, temporary mechanical fixes to keep going till safe harbor, medical, damage control, firefighting, etc...etc...
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I am required to take CE credit courses every year to maintain my SAMS AMS status and love every minute of it, forensic fire investigation, accident reconstruction analysis, failure analysis, electrical inspection and a host of ABYC courses (among the very best). The more I study, the more I realize how little I know.
Even before I got in to this business I took night classes every year and as soon as they were old enough, my boys joined me in everything from Spanish to woodworking to cooking classes. Now in their late 30's my boys are still continually taking various courses one or two nights a week.
Some people love to learn and some would rather watch The Bachelor !
Even before I got in to this business I took night classes every year and as soon as they were old enough, my boys joined me in everything from Spanish to woodworking to cooking classes. Now in their late 30's my boys are still continually taking various courses one or two nights a week.
Some people love to learn and some would rather watch The Bachelor !
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psneeld
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It I nice when your job dovetails enough with your hobby (passion) that the two share some great learning experiences.
Can anyone attend those ABYC courses? What's a average cost to attend?
AusCan
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Although I've had very little formal boating specific training, I have had a considerable amount work training which have or could be valuable at sea.
A few examples:
Risk assessment management and control
Emergency Response Planning
First Aid & CPR courses
Advanced Oil & Gas Firefighting
Caterpillar engine courses
Fluid Dynamics
Sea Survival Training
Helicopter Underwater Exit Training
Various electrical courses
Thinking about it, the most valuable of those courses listed above has probably been the first one. Risk Assessment, Management and Control. If you can't properly assess your risks in your boat, it's tough to put the control measures in place. It's better to be proactive in minimizing the risk rather than dealing with the aftermath.
A few examples:
Risk assessment management and control
Emergency Response Planning
First Aid & CPR courses
Advanced Oil & Gas Firefighting
Caterpillar engine courses
Fluid Dynamics
Sea Survival Training
Helicopter Underwater Exit Training
Various electrical courses
Thinking about it, the most valuable of those courses listed above has probably been the first one. Risk Assessment, Management and Control. If you can't properly assess your risks in your boat, it's tough to put the control measures in place. It's better to be proactive in minimizing the risk rather than dealing with the aftermath.
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psneeld
Guru
Absolutely....boating, especially cruising is a prime candidate for risk management.
Fortunately with all the literature, forums and the way most boaters get experience, risk management becomes what many call second nature...
The problem for many is...recognizing potential hazards that are often two and three levels removed from the present..
And sometimes making a decision to mitigate that hazard actually increases their risks.
I often respond to boaters in distress that thought boating on a breezy day would be "no big deal"...we aren't going far...
Till something goes wrong...and now they have wound up on a lee shore and more and more things are going wrong. This is where both knowing what the true hazards are and start using risk management to mitigate them is invaluable.
They think no big deal...just call my assistance tower. Great idea but as the time passes and the wind picks up a little more while enroute, and the tide has been dropping, a simple ungrounding is no longer possible. Most of the time things work out but for the want of one more little issue for them or for me...something so simple can turn into tragedy.
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As I pointed out in my first post on this thread, getting training from a "captain" can be a hit or miss proposition. Anyone can call him/herself a captain and offer training. I think one would do better to take classes at a recognized school.
I agree with you on the problem of people operating boats under the influence of alcohol. I think that's the biggest safety issue out there. It's not that you are under the influence, it's the other people. After a busy weekend, the trash cans at my marina are full of beer cans.
JNandJN
Veteran Member
Anyone piloting their boat is the "captain" in a generic use of the term, but you can't hire yourself out as a captain (commercially) unless you have a USCG captain's license. For most small charters, sunset cruises, sight seeing, etc one would need an OUPV "six pack" license. One of the bigger obstacles involved in obtaining a captain's license is the number of days on the water that are required before you can get the license. One needs at least 90 days in the past 3 years, and 360 days total experience.
Here is a link that be helpful: USCG: Passenger Vessel Safety Program - Uninspected Passenger Vessel
Here is a link that be helpful: USCG: Passenger Vessel Safety Program - Uninspected Passenger Vessel
We've already covered this. You don't need any of that to call yourself a captain and give boating lessons or training. Just a phone and some business cards will do it.
sunchaser
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There have been some excellent points raised on this topic. A few have even raised sailing offshore experiences. To me this type of experience is unique in preparing one for safe travels and good boat decision making. A few years ago while in NZ I was struck by the depth of seamanship that country imbues, being an island or two helps in this regard.
Weather knowledge, hours if not months spent under sail, rigging details, mechanical savvy and common sense seem in adequate abundance for many of the NZers I met and know. I never had the thought or inkling that asking these types " do you have specific training or course work?" was a pertinent question. I'm sure they do, but what would it be?
A look at the Americas Cup teams, Olympic Gold Medal winners or Volvo Series resumes is heavy on sailing vessel types, winnings and years at the wheel or crew. Amazing at how many are from down under. But the qualifications and course materials is not asked or brought up as a subject when around these truly remarkable winners.
To me the same can be said for pleasure boating. I've known many who Captain a vessel like BandB's who cover the spectrum from very good to very bad. The bad ones stand out - Sure they have the certificates but are not any good as they lack people skills, good decision making or don't care about costs.
When boating in Europe, Mexico, Down Under, East Coast, West Coast, South America, inland waters or wherever it is evident to me within a short time who the good, bad and indifferent captain/owners/operators are. Is the vessel ship shape, ER orderly, decks clear, dinghy stowed, charts out, nav instrument knowledge there, basic questions answered correctly, decision making skills evident etc.
This summer I have met two TF members who have their act together both on and off the water. Like my friends and acquaintances from down under, the thought never crossed my mind to grill them on their paper resumes,
I could just tell. They are the real deals.
Weather knowledge, hours if not months spent under sail, rigging details, mechanical savvy and common sense seem in adequate abundance for many of the NZers I met and know. I never had the thought or inkling that asking these types " do you have specific training or course work?" was a pertinent question. I'm sure they do, but what would it be?
A look at the Americas Cup teams, Olympic Gold Medal winners or Volvo Series resumes is heavy on sailing vessel types, winnings and years at the wheel or crew. Amazing at how many are from down under. But the qualifications and course materials is not asked or brought up as a subject when around these truly remarkable winners.
To me the same can be said for pleasure boating. I've known many who Captain a vessel like BandB's who cover the spectrum from very good to very bad. The bad ones stand out - Sure they have the certificates but are not any good as they lack people skills, good decision making or don't care about costs.
When boating in Europe, Mexico, Down Under, East Coast, West Coast, South America, inland waters or wherever it is evident to me within a short time who the good, bad and indifferent captain/owners/operators are. Is the vessel ship shape, ER orderly, decks clear, dinghy stowed, charts out, nav instrument knowledge there, basic questions answered correctly, decision making skills evident etc.
This summer I have met two TF members who have their act together both on and off the water. Like my friends and acquaintances from down under, the thought never crossed my mind to grill them on their paper resumes,
I could just tell. They are the real deals.
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I don't think anyone suggests just choose the guy walking by who calls himself a Captain for training. However, there are licensed Captains who are good trainers, including many who specialize in training new boat owners. Check references and find the right one for you. Captains are like any other in that there are good and bad. There are also excellent ones who aren't good at training.
I also know people who have been trained by more experienced friends and actually done well.
Then there are some topics that just require schools or programs of some sort. Fire fighting and medical care would be two of those.
Someone asked about the prices of courses. We've found most run in the range of $150-200 per day. That seems to hold true for the ABYC courses as well.
I also know people who have been trained by more experienced friends and actually done well.
Then there are some topics that just require schools or programs of some sort. Fire fighting and medical care would be two of those.
Someone asked about the prices of courses. We've found most run in the range of $150-200 per day. That seems to hold true for the ABYC courses as well.
JDCAVE
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The title of the thread is "Hands on Training". As such, I will restrict my comments to the operation of the vessel. Fire control, survival, etc is a separate issue. I'll start by asking PSNeeld what what training should I have as the owner of a 20 tonne vessel?
25 years ago, I took a course in operating a sail boat that included considerable sea time in a small sailboat. I used to single hand my sailboat and made mistakes along the way. I still draw from that training. 2 years ago, My wife and I took the 8 weeks power squadron course which entitled me to the Pleasure Craft Operators card. I also have my ROC-M. In my career, I obtained a lot of ship time on commercial salmon fishing vessels, often in adverse conditions. The operators of larger vessels had captain's tickets but I'm uncertain about the tonnage of those licenses. I should stress that I only chartered the best vessels and the best fishermen and they clearly knew their trade. I learned use of radar, Loran C, and charting. There's a lot that can go wrong on a fishing vessel. When a block or line fails, people die. You learn "where to stand" on a fishing vessel. In my 30 years running the program, with thousands of days of ship time, there were two injuries that required medical attention of crew, no collisions and no one ran aground or sunk. One of those ticketed captains taught me vessel handling, particularly close quarter handling.
As I said, these were the best fishermen, with the best vessels and gear. Breakdowns were rare, because of their preparation before they left port. That was a huge takeaway for me, and that's where I have focused my questions on this forum.
Ghost said "The most important thing I learned somewhere along the way, I don't know exactly where, was an increased ability to judge my own ability against the conditions." Bang on! That's exactly what I took away from the fishermen I worked with. Whether it is docking, weather conditions or tidal rapids, I ask myself whether my skills are sufficient to handle the situation before I put myself, my vessel and those on board at risk.
I supervised enumeration programs on salmon rivers. We negotiated small oar-powered rafts throughout rapids, often around log jams. You learn quickly in these situations, how to read the current and which way to row-there was no such thing as "slack tide". Believe me, those first few log jams with sweepers teaches you to respect the situation...to "judge my own ability against the conditions." At the time there was no such thing as "white water training" although these courses are now a requirement for government workers who operate on rivers. I drawn on this experience all the time when I negotiate tidal rapids, even at so called slack tide. If all of your training is in Florida, if you have your 200 tonne license, how much do you know about going through Seymour Narrows? Obviously it fools the best of them!
http://www.courierislander.com/news/local/costa-concordia-brings-back-sundancer-memory-1.135674
All said, I agree it's is important to look into additional training, commensurate with what is best for my situation.
Jim
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25 years ago, I took a course in operating a sail boat that included considerable sea time in a small sailboat. I used to single hand my sailboat and made mistakes along the way. I still draw from that training. 2 years ago, My wife and I took the 8 weeks power squadron course which entitled me to the Pleasure Craft Operators card. I also have my ROC-M. In my career, I obtained a lot of ship time on commercial salmon fishing vessels, often in adverse conditions. The operators of larger vessels had captain's tickets but I'm uncertain about the tonnage of those licenses. I should stress that I only chartered the best vessels and the best fishermen and they clearly knew their trade. I learned use of radar, Loran C, and charting. There's a lot that can go wrong on a fishing vessel. When a block or line fails, people die. You learn "where to stand" on a fishing vessel. In my 30 years running the program, with thousands of days of ship time, there were two injuries that required medical attention of crew, no collisions and no one ran aground or sunk. One of those ticketed captains taught me vessel handling, particularly close quarter handling.
As I said, these were the best fishermen, with the best vessels and gear. Breakdowns were rare, because of their preparation before they left port. That was a huge takeaway for me, and that's where I have focused my questions on this forum.
Ghost said "The most important thing I learned somewhere along the way, I don't know exactly where, was an increased ability to judge my own ability against the conditions." Bang on! That's exactly what I took away from the fishermen I worked with. Whether it is docking, weather conditions or tidal rapids, I ask myself whether my skills are sufficient to handle the situation before I put myself, my vessel and those on board at risk.
I supervised enumeration programs on salmon rivers. We negotiated small oar-powered rafts throughout rapids, often around log jams. You learn quickly in these situations, how to read the current and which way to row-there was no such thing as "slack tide". Believe me, those first few log jams with sweepers teaches you to respect the situation...to "judge my own ability against the conditions." At the time there was no such thing as "white water training" although these courses are now a requirement for government workers who operate on rivers. I drawn on this experience all the time when I negotiate tidal rapids, even at so called slack tide. If all of your training is in Florida, if you have your 200 tonne license, how much do you know about going through Seymour Narrows? Obviously it fools the best of them!
http://www.courierislander.com/news/local/costa-concordia-brings-back-sundancer-memory-1.135674
All said, I agree it's is important to look into additional training, commensurate with what is best for my situation.
Jim
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psneeld
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Like almost every discussion here...it depends on you, your experience and how you plan on boating.
Life raft survival isn't gonna do mostly the ICW huggers or weekenders much good...probably a good idea for those with liferafts and are headed for Hawaii or Europe.
Like I said in post one...I'm just curious what people have or think is good training commensurate with what kind of boating they do.
I also thought it nice that if someone thought they should get or brush up on something before a big trip, we could share where we got our training or what's out there to help.
It's also to make some think about how they discuss some maintenance issues. ABYC standards are set for boats that cross oceans or puddles yet are the same. Shouldn't it be for captains too? Of course not ...so the same can be said for some of the contested discussions on how things "must" be done to be done correctly....
JDCAVE
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I think I still need pointers on my close quarters handling skills. I spent quite a bit of time with a captain several years ago and I'm ok in most situations. I keep it as simple as possible. However, I still find docking against wind or current a challenge in some situations. I also have a bit of difficulty backing up for long stretches. Few docks in BC have cleats, so a crew member usually has to step off to secure the spring line around the railing. At this stage spending time with an experience captain again would be beneficial as I'm sure there are a few tricks I can use to make things easier. I do find, however, that I make much less use of the bow thruster than formerly.
A couple of weeks ago, we watched a 75 year old woman shoe-horn in an 85 footer in Port McNeil using a remote. It was expertly done. She was quite humble about the whole affair but she had told her husband that she wasn't strong enough to handle 5' fenders, so they exchanged roles.
Jim
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A couple of weeks ago, we watched a 75 year old woman shoe-horn in an 85 footer in Port McNeil using a remote. It was expertly done. She was quite humble about the whole affair but she had told her husband that she wasn't strong enough to handle 5' fenders, so they exchanged roles.
Jim
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psneeld
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Good..part of what I was hoping for...
Just remember...the same guy/school/instructor may not click with you or be good with your class vessel or experience level.
Capt.Bill11
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Scott, the Navy does in fact take people off the street, and put them in charge of a bridge. Some of the best naval officers have come from the midwest and plains states. Adm. Frank Kelso was from Columbia, TN.
I have a close friend that taught ship handling at the Naval Academy. He took me down to the wall where they would practice docking the 80' training vessels. There were many chunks of concrete missing from the seawall. He said that no matter how much class room training when you put guys with little practical boating experience in charge things could go wrong quickly. Of course, the ship handler does not touch the throttle, gears, or wheel. They would stand behind, and give orders. It could be a very humbling experience for them. He said that it did serve to take some cockiness out of some of them.
Absolutely correct.
We have been looking at a variety of schools/instructors on the east and west coasts not only for the reason you mention but to also get a variety of instructors with different experiences, viewpoints, and skills.
One of my parallel careers mandates certain training every year. Some training is new each year but much is the same old, same old. You would think the same old, same old would get boring but for the most part, with different instructors, one picks up something new even though one has been doing the same training for decades. Worst case, you just get a bit better/more efficient in doing the work. Usually you learn something new and get a bit better with the subject.
Later,
Dan
