John Deere?

Probably gas something to do with additional balancer shaft(s). The industrial versions (lower tier) of the 4045 has balancer shafts as an option. Can't imagine what that would be like at idle.

Most displacement boats might require more HP than the VW can produce for hours on end.

1.8 liters would be about 90 cubic inches , so perhaps 30 HP on a cont basis.

Two might be OK , but headwinds or blue water wave climbing might be slow going.

>Can you imagine how smooth and quiet a TDI 36GB would be at 10 knots? <

Real quiet after a couple of hours on the pin.

Car & motorcycle engines are NOT industrial duty ., so can nor be operated at their rating for very long.

Even most piston aircraft engines can only provide Take Off power for 5 min.

Might be better in a ski boat where full throttle is only to get the skier up.

You can buy the 115hp 2.0l TDI VW engine from Mercury. Or with variable vane turbo for 150 and 170 hp.

Insequent said:

I ought to have asked the JD dealer for some hard data to support his smoothness claim, and will try to remember to do that at the next boat show. ...........

Click to expand...

Asking a salesperson why his product is better than others is not the best way to get accurate information.

You would do better to find third party reviews.

manyboats said:

Ski,
............ Two TDI engines would power a 36GB don't you think? That would save over a ton (literally) of weight. ......

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But removing that much weight might change the boat's stability or handling. You might have to replace it with ballast so you would gain nothing.

A few months back we were on a boat with a 4045 with 135 HP. I thought the engine was running 1600-1700 RPM when I was at the helm but the wifey thought she was running 1300 RPM when she had the helm. Max RPM is 2600.

You could hear the engine in the background but it was not bothersome at all on deck, down below, or in the pilot house. The sound was just a muted, well it was a bit loud in the engine room.

The only noise problem we heard as from an engine accessory squealing which the owner fixed pronto. That was the only annoying thing we heard. I did not notice any "roughness" from the engine either.

One person took a nap in the cockpit while another fell asleep on the sofa which is pretty close to the ER.

Those of us in the pilot house had no problem having a conversation. The engine was there if you listened for it but that was all. I am sure we would have noticed if the engine STOPPED working but the engines operation was something one did not notice either from noise or vibration.

My two cents is that many full displacement boats have engines with too much HP. I suspect those boats are not running with a large enough load on the engine.

Later,
Dan

With twin Lehmans a GB 36 is heavy. Two tons of noth'in bur engine and gears. I can't imagine that loosing a ton or two would'nt do great good for the GB. It would be like disembarking 20 to 25 people. Much less power would be required to move the boat.

And speaking of power claiming the VW engine would only be capable of 30 continuous hp is ridiculous .. IMO but I don't know what it would really be capable of. My gas VW is 170hp but I don't know what the diesel has. I'm think'in more like 60 or 70 continuos hp . That would be about the same as a single engined GB36. And w all that weight gone it should perform better than the single. It would weigh about as much as a 4cyl Lehman GB36.

But a preview of the future is all I intended.

Dannc,
A romp through the archives will reveal that you are absolutely correct.

I am planning to run a 130/140hp VW 1.9 M-TDI sterndrive in my 30' dory.Straight marinized auto engine.It's done quite regularly.

Interesting that the 4045 idle is 600. That is much lower than other fours. I'll be impressed if it can run at that speed without shaking.

Anyone have first hand experience with that engine at idle?

Dannc do you remember idle on the boat you were on?

Regarding the TDI, they are fine engines, but with the aluminum head on an iron block there are galvanic issues there. Probably not suitable for trawlers where it is normal for engines to be in service 40yrs plus. Aluminum in contact with coolant is trouble long term, just think of Mani-coolers, Yanmar manifolds, Lehman 275 aluminum bits. The really serious industrial/marine engines (Cat, Detroit, Cummins) you rarely find aluminum in contact with coolant.

Black smoke is probably just abad injector. No way I would do a repowner at 2000 hours. Just broken in unless way over propped even then it probably could out live you.

Ski in NC said:

Interesting that the 4045 idle is 600. That is much lower than other fours. I'll be impressed if it can run at that speed without shaking. ...

Click to expand...

My naturally-aspirated 4045DFM70 has a minimum/idle speed of 750 RPM. The engine is more "comfortable" (smoother) at an 800 idle. Start engine with throttle at one-third position, resulting in 1400 RPM. Once started, reduced to 1000, and when ready to depart/engage gears, reduced to 800. Run at 1000-1100 RPM in marina fairway and then up to 1400 for ten minutes or so when operating temperature is reached before going to 1800 for normal cruise. While engine is in the compartment below the pilothouse, normal conversation is possible in the pilothouse and elsewhere on the boat.

manyboats said:

With twin Lehmans a GB 36 is heavy. Two tons of noth'in bur engine and gears. I can't imagine that loosing a ton or two would'nt do great good for the GB. It would be like disembarking 20 to 25 people. Much less power would be required to move the boat. ............

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Remember, the two tons is down low in the boat. It's not the same as disembarking 20 to 25 people. It's going to change the center of gravity.

This is the sort of thing that needs to be run by a naval architect before doing it.

VW diesels are very popular in boats in Europe; except that you'd need a VW mechanic to work on one, they are not compromised in any way as boat engines.

For the record, I wouldn't give you a gun license if you confessed to me you were swapping out a healthy 2000 hour Lehman engine for a John Deere just for the hell of it. In fact, give me half of what the swap will cost you and I'll get you a chrome valve cover, paint the block, insulate your engine hatches and make sure your Lehman is serviced and you'll save 15 to 20 boat dollars which you can then use to buy a stern thruster, another pointless but currently sexy expense. (Did I say that last bit out loud? Oops.)

Well guys, as for the TDI, I have had 4 of em, 03, 06, 09 and back to an 06. The run on the highway like a sewing machine. In big bend country in my first 06 I hit 130 mph and still had 400 RPM left when the governor kicked in. And that is stone cold stock. The European chip and a few other changes i would guess 155 and no less than 140. The old marinized VW was called Pathfinder. Great engine. This block and design is the small block chevy of Diesel. Used in trucks, boats, fork lifts and so on. Been around forever.
As for marine application for the new modern electronic model. Well I say it must be tuned to max torque and largely forget hp (whack a mole) because a boat is going up hill all the time. Gear it correctly, prop it right and off you go for a long time. On the street the timing belt must be changed every 100k miles, cause it is an interference engine. BTW to the gasoline GTI guy, the hot rodded TDI will look respectable up against your stock GTI, but put in the European chip in yours, add prem fuel..... look out AGM Mercedes.

Ski in NC said:

Interesting that the 4045 idle is 600. That is much lower than other fours. I'll be impressed if it can run at that speed without shaking.

Anyone have first hand experience with that engine at idle?

Dannc do you remember idle on the boat you were on?

...

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I don't remember the idle speed and I think we idled for a few minutes before leaving the slip and I did not notice the engine at idle.

On my tractor, a four banger Yanmar, I only idle for 30-60 seconds and then I crank up the speed to 1800 RPM at which point I let the engine warm up. My truck is sorta the same except that I start moving as soon as the engine starts. The first mile is low speed and low load but I keep the RPMs up on cold days when the engine is cold. The truck's computer will run the engine at higher RPMs if the engine is cold and the outside temp is low.

I have had fuel in the oil per used oil analysis due to idling the engine. I THOUGHT I was not idling enough to cause a problem but there was the fuel on the report. The tractor was easy to solve by simply changing throttle settings at start up and operation. For the truck, I was able to change my route. Idling B Bad.

Per the JD specs, the 80 HP 4045 idles at 750 while the higher HP turbo models including the 135 HP 4045 idle at 650. I would have figured those idle speeds would have been reversed.

Later,
Dan

Ski in NC said:

Interesting that the 4045 idle is 600. That is much lower than other fours. I'll be impressed if it can run at that speed without shaking.

Anyone have first hand experience with that engine at idle?

Dannc do you remember idle on the boat you were on?

Regarding the TDI, they are fine engines, but with the aluminum head on an iron block there are galvanic issues there. Probably not suitable for trawlers where it is normal for engines to be in service 40yrs plus. Aluminum in contact with coolant is trouble long term, just think of Mani-coolers, Yanmar manifolds, Lehman 275 aluminum bits. The really serious industrial/marine engines (Cat, Detroit, Cummins) you rarely find aluminum in contact with coolant.

Click to expand...

are not the Steyr Marine Diesels Aluminum?

2 - 4 - and 6-Cylinder - Steyr Motors

HOLLYWOOD

Ski wrote;
"Aluminum in contact with coolant is trouble long term, just think of Mani-coolers, Yanmar manifolds, Lehman 275 aluminum bits. The really serious industrial/marine engines (Cat, Detroit, Cummins) you rarely find aluminum in contact with coolant."

That's one of the main reasons I bought a Mitsubishi by Klassen as their marineization included a steel exhaust manifold that almost never needs replacement. Avoided most of the other engines as they mostly had aluminum manifolds. Major aluminum parts on a trawler engine seem very out of place. But there's no such thing asa trawler engine.

Actually there may be. Albin built the Albin 22hp diesel engine before the 26' Albin cruiser or trawler. The boat was actually designed to go w the engine … a very unusual relationship. Perhaps that engine could be called a trawler engine???

Re the VW engines in a GB36 Ron wrote "This is the sort of thing that needs to be run by a naval architect before doing it." In this case no because of the existence on the single engined GB36. Without the single perhaps you're right that it may be worthwhile but probably not. Wouldn't hurt if you had plenty of money. Or you could just ask a knowledgable single engined GB skipper how his boat runs when low on fuel and water. For example w my W30 I like to have my water tanks nearly full in following seas.

I have the JD 135s in my boat. When started cold, they run at 750 rpm for about 15 seconds then settle in at 650 rpm idle. There is a little vibration at 650 rpm but very smooth over that. They are very economical, reasonably quiet in the pilothouse, and nearly silent on the flybridge.

Ski in NC said:

Interesting that the 4045 idle is 600. That is much lower than other fours. I'll be impressed if it can run at that speed without shaking.

Anyone have first hand experience with that engine at idle?

Dannc do you remember idle on the boat you were on?

Regarding the TDI, they are fine engines, but with the aluminum head on an iron block there are galvanic issues there. Probably not suitable for trawlers where it is normal for engines to be in service 40yrs plus. Aluminum in contact with coolant is trouble long term, just think of Mani-coolers, Yanmar manifolds, Lehman 275 aluminum bits. The really serious industrial/marine engines (Cat, Detroit, Cummins) you rarely find aluminum in contact with coolant.

Click to expand...

I will use close loop cooling on the VW with standard glycohol antifreeze.

Mule said:

Well guys, as for the TDI, I have had 4 of em, 03, 06, 09 and back to an 06. The run on the highway like a sewing machine. In big bend country in my first 06 I hit 130 mph and still had 400 RPM left when the governor kicked in. And that is stone cold stock. The European chip and a few other changes i would guess 155 and no less than 140. The old marinized VW was called Pathfinder. Great engine. This block and design is the small block chevy of Diesel. Used in trucks, boats, fork lifts and so on. Been around forever.
As for marine application for the new modern electronic model. Well I say it must be tuned to max torque and largely forget hp (whack a mole) because a boat is going up hill all the time. Gear it correctly, prop it right and off you go for a long time. On the street the timing belt must be changed every 100k miles, cause it is an interference engine. BTW to the gasoline GTI guy, the hot rodded TDI will look respectable up against your stock GTI, but put in the European chip in yours, add prem fuel..... look out AGM Mercedes.

Click to expand...

The first kid I beat street racing my wife's 4dr TDI golf really looked like he was going to go home and cry.. his wiz bang Mitsu sounded great but getting stomped by a smoke belching 4 door was a bit too much for him.
To be fair our TDI has a tricked out head, cam, turbo and programmed computer and will make 22psi of boost. It is the Admirals "commuter" car and she always averages 50+ mpg on her all highway commute. Its too bad it wasn't a winding road so I could use the $3k+ of bilstein suspension stuffed under the car too. The stock 90hp motor now makes 160hp at the wheels!.. I don't know the torque number though..
The vw tdi motor is a great piece of machinery.
Yes my wife gets pissed when I race her car..
No I don't ever plan to grow up..

HOLLYWOOD

Dry stack keel cooled.

My Cummins book says to never idle longer than 5 minutes and mine is rated continuous duty. Idle = bad.

Xsbank said:

Dry stack keel cooled.

My Cummins book says to never idle longer than 5 minutes and mine is rated continuous duty. Idle = bad.

Click to expand...

Ditto per my JD's manual regarding idle.

Xsbank said:

Dry stack keel cooled.

My Cummins book says to never idle longer than 5 minutes and mine is rated continuous duty. Idle = bad.

Click to expand...

That could be a problem in some real life situations like no-wake zones and waiting for bridges. I would think they would take these into account when designing a boat engine.

rwidman said:

That could be a problem in some real life situations like no-wake zones and waiting for bridges. I would think they would take these into account when designing a boat engine.

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Idling: I presumed this meant without the engine in gear, without any load. I circle while waiting for a bridge opening (or turn off engine and drift if conditions are favorable.)

From the JD 4045 operating manual:

Operate the engine under a lighter load and at slower than normal speed for first 15 minutes after start-up. DO NOT run engine at slow idle unless necessary for maneuvering out of dock and harbor.

And:


Idling Engine

Avoid excessive engine idling. Prolonged idling may cause the engine coolant temperature to fall below its normal range. This, in turn, causes crankcase oil dilution, due to incomplete fuel combustion, and permits formation of gummy deposits on valves, pistons, and piston rings. It also promotes rapid accumulation of engine sludge and unburned fuel in the exhaust system.

Once an engine is warmed to normal operating temperatures, engine should be idled at slow idle speed. Slow idle speed for this engine is set at the factory. See in the Specifications Section near end of manual for slow idle speed for your engine. If an engine will be idling for more than 5 minutes, stop and restart later.

drb1025 said:

From the JD 4045 operating manual:

Operate the engine under a lighter load and at slower than normal speed for first 15 minutes after start-up. DO NOT run engine at slow idle unless necessary for maneuvering out of dock and harbor.

And:


Idling Engine

Avoid excessive engine idling. Prolonged idling may cause the engine coolant temperature to fall below its normal range. This, in turn, causes crankcase oil dilution, due to incomplete fuel combustion, and permits formation of gummy deposits on valves, pistons, and piston rings. It also promotes rapid accumulation of engine sludge and unburned fuel in the exhaust system.

Once an engine is warmed to normal operating temperatures, engine should be idled at slow idle speed. Slow idle speed for this engine is set at the factory. See in the Specifications Section near end of manual for slow idle speed for your engine. If an engine will be idling for more than 5 minutes, stop and restart later.

Click to expand...

Would this apply to closed loop cooling with a thermostat installed?

Absolutely.