Lehman Starting Issues

"I'm not going to change my mind.* Old crap is old crap.* Our helicopter pilot at the television station I worked at until I moved here was forced to fly a really crummy little helicopter for traffic reporting.* It fell out the sky with considerable regularity but fortunately never hurt anyone in the process.* When I asked him if there was any way to make the thing more reliable, he said "You can only polish a turd so much."

That's the Lehman in my opinion."

Boating choices become a matter of affordability.
When boat shopping, immediately I could determine I couldnt afford a newer boat with newer tehcnology in engines. I learned that Lehman sold over 25,000 engines in trawlers, that MANY MANY trawler owners know them very well, there is a great parts supply system, and they are expected to run >20,000 hours. THere is also a neat 2 day course on how to maintain them by the world's foremost expert on them. The total cost of ownership of the Lehman 20 is reasonable.

Yet there are other good marine engines too. But those factors collectively convinced me that I wanted an old Lehman engine in my boat.
Seemed like a logical conclusion to me.

This being my 4th year with this 1982 boat, I am happy with the Lehman 120 choice. I find the engine relatively easy to get to know, comprehend, work on, and get help with if needed.

And since this thread was about starting, it starts quickly and easily each time....crack the throttle a bit. In spring, the first time you start it in colder weather, you may have to give it a lot or full throttle the very FIRST time it starts. Thereafter, normal starting procedure. Brian Smith from American Diesel told me that after the boat sits for more than a few weeks, sometimes the fuel can recede a bit and it takes more cranking to get it up to the injectors. I find his starting diagnosis to be correct each Spring. After that, all season long, I never have any start issues.
I have almost 6500 hours on my red Lehman.
Note that it took 28 years to put 6800 hours on it. In another 28 years, it may have as much as 14,000 total hours. Still not at expected lifetime !

R.

Good to see you Ralph.

Mine starts on the first few compression strokes as well. Needs a scooch of throttle for a few seconds to warm the cylinders then it's smooth with gardly a trace of smoke.
I pretty much agree with Ralph's take with the exception that I would like to repower with a Cummins 6BT.
Been working on a truck conversion to do that however present economic conditions have dampened that project. I can afford to do the job no problem but I am thinking I should not throw that extra $$ at the boat at this time.
However the simplicity of a Cummins*B engine and the added efficiency of a modern turbo charged diesel engine may still push me over the edge.

and the added efficiency of a modern turbo charged diesel engine may still push me over the edge.biggrin

There is only efficiency IF the loading is high enough to actually gain from the turbo boost.

Many trawlers will run cheap at low rpm , too low for boost, so the turbo gums up and fails , with added expense , but no fuel savings.

IF you can figure an engine where the turbo will be spun up and the engine working hard (75% of rating) some fuel savings may be seen.

It is usually a far smaller engine than normal, if the cruise is at displacement speeds.

albin man wrote:

Mine starts on the first few compression strokes as well. Needs a scooch of throttle for a few seconds to warm the cylinders then it's smooth with gardly a trace of smoke.
I pretty much agree with Ralph's take with the exception that I would like to repower with a Cummins 6BT.
Been working on a truck conversion to do that however present economic conditions have dampened that project. I can afford to do the job no problem but I am thinking I should not throw that extra $$ at the boat at this time.
However the simplicity of a Cummins*B engine and the added efficiency of a modern turbo charged diesel engine may still push me over the edge.

Click to expand...

Jay
Your mental wrestling with repowering with Cummins, to replace a PERFECTLY GOOD Lehman 120, is because you are addicted to CUMMINS ! You need to FEED THAT ADDICTION MAN ! Either that or get to a 12-step program and support group ! LOL !!!
BTW, anyone who may need a Lehman 120 ought to keep in touch with Jay. When he pulls his Lehman, it wont be because of "problems", it will be purely to feed his Cummins addiction ! His Lehman will be a great engine for someone wanting to repower.
R.

JD: THanks for the welcome ! Been keeping busy on the MTOA, Defever and Great Loop email lists. Stuck my head in this forum last week and it appears that many of the good ole' boys who used to be on Passagemaker message board are now here.

Glad to see the group reformed here. There is a lot of good knowledge in this band of guys.......many of which are Lehman owners.


-- Edited by ralphyost on Wednesday 25th of August 2010 07:00:25 AM

Yes, Hi Ralph. Good to hear from you. Yes PMM became a bit, shall we say...sepulcral. Ones voice started to echo...which is a pity, it was a good board.

PMM was a great example of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The more they messed with the software, the worse it became. I finally gave up completely.

One of my favorite quotes of all times applies there, as it does to my philosophy on boat systems. It was Scotty from Star Trek..."The more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain".

Keith,
That says it all.
I started with the PMM board when it first opened.
Same with the magazine.
Still subscribe to the mag.
But the board became a PITA.
Still pop over now and again to remind myself why I departed.

Benn

Keith wrote:
PMM was a great example of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The more they messed with the software, the worse it became. I finally gave up completely.

Click to expand...

Me too...It was fun at first but they really screwed it up.

*

Damn...I guess I need to keep up with these threads...I can't read EVERYTHING!!!! I am glad y'all managed to get back on track all by yourselves!!!!

And I guess I need to check out that long ass anchor thread if it got ugly.

Still pop over now and again to remind myself why I departed.

Since the most common fellow on the PMM board seems to have never been aboard a boat , visiting at times is useful to stave off DISASTERS.

FF wrote:Since the most common fellow on the PMM board seems to have never been aboard a boat , visiting at times is useful to stave off DISASTERS.

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I thought he was a live-aboard in Seattle.

I remember when this board first started too. Keith was a strong advocate for it.
Good to see the good ole' gang has re-assembled here.

I connected to the PMM message board in about 2005 when we were deciding on a trawler purchase. Wanted to know all the intricacies of trawlers and Taiwan-built boats. The group of participants that was on PMM message board at that time was outstanding. It helped me jump start my trawler knowledge significantly.

So here we are....warts and all....even some family fueds!

R.

You betcha. Hi Ralph. I still think of you when I consult my electronic copy of the Lehman manual.

PMM does not have a user friendly site. And no pilots to bring an additional level of common sense and tech savvy!

Thank y'all for coming over and making this site what it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In a polite attempt to get this string back on topic, I have a couple of questions.

Our yacht club owns an old La Paz 33 we use as a race-committee boat; she is powered by a FL120. On the side of the throttle linkage is something someone called a "cold-start button." In operation we lift the floorboard (which we do to check fluids and filters anyway), have someone advance the throttle all the way and push the button; there is a "click" and the linkage advances a few millimeters. When we crank the engine she fires within a half a second--honestly; we quickly retard the throttle so the cold engine does not over-rev. She starts first time, every time.

Now, here are the questions. Is this a common feature? Are we following the correct procedure? Shouldn't this work if we only push the button and do not advance the throttle? Let me know, and thanks.

Chris491 wrote:

Now, here are the questions. Is this a common feature? Are we following the correct procedure? Shouldn't this work if we only push the button and do not advance the throttle? Let me know, and thanks.

Click to expand...

It is common on Minimec governors.

It sounds like a needless pain in the butt to do it your way. Why do you feel it is necessary to use it? Is your engine always really cold?

That button is useful on tractors and such and I suppose if you always start your engine from the engine room it might add somethiing to the experience.

You can push it any time but it only does its thing with the engine stopped. Try it.

If you just "crack the throttle" you will probably start just as quickly since the fuel control defaults to maximum fuel when the engine is stopped and the stop lever is not activated. The cold start or excess fuel button just allows the fuel control to move slightly beyond the maximium fuel stop until the engine starts.

My dinosaur, POS FL120 started again Saturday and ran all day without a hiccup.*


This is only my 3rd season as a power boater.* How long before I stop worrying about the engine not starting or conking out at the worst possible moment?

BaltimoreLurker wrote:

My dinosaur, POS FL120 started again Saturday and ran all day without a hiccup.*

This is only my 3rd season as a power boater.* How long before I stop worrying about the engine not starting or conking out at the worst possible moment?

Click to expand...

I wouls say, after all my years of boating..........never. Chuck

*

Funny this, but I always forget to advance the throttle from the low idle place I last left it, when starting my old 1975 vintage L120 - until it starts. I just turn on the switch to Batt 1, turn the key, press the start button - or turn the key further - both ways work - it instantaneously fires, (confirming what Rick just said about the cold start, I suspect), then, and only then, I advance it a bit, mainly so the low oil pressure loud buzzer will shut up a split second sooner......always works.....since I had the starter motor recon'd 8 yrs ago just after I bought her, that is.

Capn Chuck wrote:

I wouls say, after all my years of boating..........never. Chuck

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LOL!* I was afraid that might be the case.* Maybe I should look into fabricating a replacement mast capable of carrying a cruising chute!*

Thanks, Rick, for the explanation;* it is exactly what I was looking for.

You ask why I feel it necessary to use this?* I don't, but the person responsible for the maintenance and operation of this boat showed it to me and says we should use it every time.* If one were to crack the throttle and winder 'er up, she starts on the third or fourth crank;* with the button, however, she starts on the first or second crank, every time.* And it is not too much a pain in the butt, even if needless:* we I mentioned in my first posting, we always lift up the floorboards to check oil and coolant levels and look at the raw-water filter before starting the engine, so we just hit the button then;* this is a sedan-style trawler so has no engine room, per se.

Chris491 wrote:

Is this a common feature? Are we following the correct procedure? Shouldn't this work if we only push the button and do not advance the throttle? Let me know, and thanks.

Click to expand...

Unless it's winter and the engine room of your boat is really cold you shouldn't need to use the cold-start lever or button or whatever you have.* On our boat the cold start controls on the injection pumps are connected with Teleflex cables*to pull-knobs on the instrument panel.* But we've never used them, and we've been advised by our diesel shop (and the FL120 operators manual) that we don't need them in our climate.* So far in twelve years we never have.** Were we in New England or Alaska it may be a different story come winter and the cold start knobs would become necessary.

The operator's manual for the FL120 does say to advance the throttle about a quarter of its travel if the engine is cold (normal ambient temperatures, not winter)*before pushing the start button.* If the engine is hot/warm the manual says no throttle advance is necessary.

I didn't advance the throttles at all when starting when we got the boat*but after reading the instructions in the manual (always the last thing you're supposed to do, right?), we've always put in a quarter throttle before starting and the engines start noticeably*quicker than they did with no throttle and a cold engine.*

The cold start control on the FL120 releases a stop or catch and allows the fuel control lever in the injection pump*to move farther than it normally does.* This is why the manual says to put in full throttle, then pull the cold start knob (or push the release on the injection pump).* If you don't put the throttle in its maximum postion before*pushing the cold -start release it won't actually do anything.* It needs the max throttle position in order to allow the fuel control lever to move farther.

The operators manual for the FL120 does a pretty good job of spelling out the correct*starting procedures for various conditions.* If you don't have a copy of the manual they have it on line on the Grand Banks owners forum.

"If you don't have a copy of the manual they have it on line on the Grand Banks owners forum."

Be aware that there is a BAD electronic copy of the Lehman manual being circulated over the Internet. I had one, and found out in an exchange with Bob Smith about some items in it.* Bob couldnt believe why I was asking some questions and when I told him it was in the manual, he had me send him the copy I had. Then he informed me that the one I had was a draft written that was never to have been released.

I also have the correct versions of the Lehman manual on my own web site here
http://www.alphacompervices.com/ralph/boat/SayGoodByeIndex.asp

R.

I've compared the PDF of the Lehman manuals on the GB owners site (although not word for word) and they seem identical to the original operations, parts, and service manuals that came with our boat.

I believe the Lehman 120 manuals on the Grand Banks web site are the correct ones.

R.