Hands on Training

kraftee said:

However, I really like the idea of using refrigerator shelving as a barbecue...

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Thank God for damage deposits.

And at least they BBQed on the beach. As opposed to those who would put the BBQ grill right on the teak decks.

As to what qualifies someone to be a small boat "captain"? Nothing really, other than a check book.

Now as to what qualifies someone to be a good small boat "captain"? Experience and practice. And lots of both.

All the paper stuff is meaningless without them.

Just trial and error for me. Not much available for training courses in these parts.
Oh - I did do a basic dinghy sailing course with the kids. Good family fun.

Mostly, I just try to constantly stretch my comfort zone by taking the boat out in a little rougher water and a little more wind all the time. And I occasionally get out with an old salt who has more sea miles than I will ever have. He is eager to share his experience if I supply the rum.

I watched for a long time, helping a buddy who ran a 6 pack dive charter. That's where I first learned to use spring lines.

I learned about close quarters maneuvering in breezes in Ganges harbor (just about 5pm any summer day when the afternoon wind picks up against docks that all run perpendicular to it.

I learned about close quarters maneuvering in strong current in LaConner.

I learned about anchoring just below the scenic overlook from Butchart Gardens in Tod inlet with 50-75 people watching (and one annoyed float plane pilot).

I first learned about gale conditions, vessel placement on the backs of breaking seas and the usefulness of an extra hand on board in the South Rosario Rip.

I read a lot. Everything. Voraciously. But most of what I learned was not in a classroom.

Some of it scared me. Some I'd avoid again whenever possible.

The most important thing I learned somewhere along the way, I don't know exactly where, was an increased ability to judge my own ability against the conditions. That quality, more than any other, has been the one thing that keeps me excited about being able to continue learning. I've seen a lot of people at a lot of different levels of skill. Just having skills was insufficient in safe and successful operation.

I really think the one skill that tops them all is judgement. It's also the hardest one to teach.

There is a BIG difference between a licensed captain and a licensed captain who is also a professional teacher. A professional, such as those at the various schools like Chapman's or Sea Sense or Club Nautique (Alameda ca) will have an agenda, a curriculum, a process. Book learning and classroom learning are important, but on the water training is invaluable.

When we got back into "big" boating after 25 years of just renting skiffs for the day (prior big boat was a Tolly 32 twin engine), I took the series of multi-day courses at Club Nautique, the book part mostly based on a US Sailing curriculum for navigation and basic power boat techniques, that allowed us to charter increasingly large boats starting with a 30 ft Mainship single for around the bay up through a Mainship 430 twin for use outside the Gate and up the Delta. This was easily the best money I have ever spent on boating; the courses and teachers were really excellent and comprehensive. I was shocked at what I didn't know; how we got away with scooting around Seattle as care free 20 somethings on that Tolly, even with the USCGA course, is miraculous in retrospect. Subsequently Ann and a friend took a really excellent on the water course from SeaSense in Sarasota, which has programs especially designed for women, which also made a huge difference. This all enabled us to charter ever larger boats in other parts of the country and ultimately buy and cruise our Hatt.

I have also been lucky enough to seek out and find mechanics and other trades who are good teachers as well. I always watched their work, asked questions, determined whether I want to DIY next time or continue to hire a particular job out if I can (sometimes no choice if you are in the middle of nowhere but to DIY hateful jobs).
Having a full manual for every possible piece of equipment on board, including full service manuals for drive trains and generator is an essential adjunct, for going back and reviewing what you were just taught.

Other than that, every trip is a learning experience. I have a natural talent for creating them out of thin air.

I am amazed all you guys can get insurance for anything bigger than a trailer boat without having demonstrated history of having piloted something close to the size of your new boat. Every step of my progression beyond 25 feet (including my first twin-screw, in the water, 28 foot boat, and every step from there up to my most recent 55 to 64), I sought quotes from a bunch of insurers and in each case they wanted a boating resume and followed up with detailed questions about my ability to handle that next step up. Some insurers declined (even though I have never had a claim, have good credit, boater safety classes, etc) on the basis that my prior experience with that size boat was too limited.

Okay, okay, I take back my snarky Navy comment I seem to have a talent for riling people up, so here's another one: I am not sure what typically qualifies someone to skipper a trawler. But whatever it is, it's WAY more than what qualifies someone to aim (notice I didn't say "drive" or "pilot") a South Florida Sea Ray!!!

kraftee said:

Okay, okay, I take back my snarky Navy comment I seem to have a talent for riling people up, so here's another one: I am not sure what typically qualifies someone to skipper a trawler. But whatever it is, it's WAY more than what qualifies someone to aim (notice I didn't say "drive" or "pilot") a South Florida Sea Ray!!!

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Actually it takes way more talent to run a Sea Ray...Higher speeds, more distance covered, more critical fuel and stop planning....

Keep going....I've seen and met plenty of trawler people as clueless as Sea Ray drivers and the only difference is the speed they are clueless at.

Funny...usually the "let's poke fun" types are the worst boaters of all because they don't understand the real issues. So far it's the Navy who defends everyone's right to be clueless and Sea Ray owners for buying into one of America's top boating lines....lets go for door number three.

Back on topic...it's getting cruisers to think beyond being a "little smarter" than the average weekend ICW rumrunner. If you really cruise to remote areas...how are your maintenance and weather guessing skills?...if travelling to really remote or offshore...just how much survival training do you have? Thought through the evolution from saving your boat to abandoning ship? Just what is coming along and how easy/fast is that gonna happen?

Really pass along where you got your training/experience...

Crimping 101 is important too...but we spend more time talking about how to define what a trawler is or what anchor (supposedly) works better than helping one another BE better cruisers.

I've seen and met plenty of trawler people as clueless as Sea Ray drivers and the only difference is the speed they are clueless at.

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Hear hear! Big thumbs up to that. Throw in plenty of "sail" boaters too. Often one and the same at origin though.

MYTraveler said:

I am amazed all you guys can get insurance for anything bigger than a trailer boat without having demonstrated history of having piloted something close to the size of your new boat. .......

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And how would you get that history without owning the boat?

You know you can get car and truck insurance without showing any experience. And what about the owner who won't be actually operating the boat? Private person or corporation. A corporation can own and insure a boat but it can't operate it.

rwidman said:

And how would you get that history without owning the boat?

You know you can get car and truck insurance without showing any experience. And what about the owner who won't be actually operating the boat? Private person or corporation. A corporation can own and insure a boat but it can't operate it.

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Like I tried to say -- by starting small and working your way up in order to show experience with something not too much smaller.

As for corporate owners, I bet their policies describe who can and cannot run the boat. Mine does -- if its not me at the helm (or at least on board) then it must be someone approved in advance by the insurer.

MYTraveler said:

Like I tried to say -- by starting small and working your way up in order to show experience with something not too much smaller.

As for corporate owners, I bet their policies describe who can and cannot run the boat. Mine does -- if its not me at the helm (or at least on board) then it must be someone approved in advance by the insurer.

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exactly.....

Wow. I must have been too "clueless" to realize how talented these Sea Ray drivers are required to be! Still, I invite you to come on down here and see for yourself how the average Sea Ray driver behaves on the Florida waterways. Sea Ray might be "...one of America's top boating lines...", but here, every young "professional" with his first real money races out and buys the absolute biggest Sea Ray he can afford (with IPS - so no need to even learn how to dock it properly), and then gets little or no training (which is what this thread was about anyway) before he terrorizes the waterways. So, yeah, flame away. I never made this a personal attack against you - but you seem to have no problem attacking me personally. So I guess you win. What a guy.

kraftee said:

Wow. I must have been too "clueless" to realize how talented these Sea Ray drivers are required to be! Still, I invite you to come on down here and see for yourself how the average Sea Ray driver behaves on the Florida waterways. Sea Ray might be "...one of America's top boating lines...", but here, every young "professional" with his first real money races out and buys the absolute biggest Sea Ray he can afford (with IPS - so no need to even learn how to dock it properly), and then gets little or no training (which is what this thread was about anyway) before he terrorizes the waterways. So, yeah, flame away. I never made this a personal attack against you - but you seem to have no problem attacking me personally. So I guess you win. What a guy.

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20 posts and your are the one in the "poking fun" ... "attack" mode.

I pilot my trawler to Florida every winter and I know who are boaters and who aren't.

Was stationed in Fla 3 times.

Plus you think Fla is any diff than any where's else?

Again...labeling any group of boaters even if somewhat a stereotype just places the stereotype right back on the originator.

Yep, number of posts certainly equates to how much one knows. Or does it equate to how much one likes to hear oneself pontificate?

MYTraveler said:

I am amazed all you guys can get insurance for anything bigger than a trailer boat without having demonstrated history of having piloted something close to the size of your new boat. ...

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Maybe obtaining insurance for my current 14-ton boat was made easier by paying insurance premiums on a 24-foot trailered sailboat for 20 years without an insurance claim.

"The most important thing I learned....... was an increased ability to judge my own ability against the conditions".

Absolutely spot on, Ghost.


Another source of boat-specific training might be the Previous Owner.

With my current boat, I made it a contracted condition of sale that after purchase, he spend a certain number of days at sea going through the many one-off systems with me.

He seemed to enjoy it, and even roped in another previous owner for more explanation of their quite eccentric installations.

I'm lucky enough to have gotten away with the 'have a go' approach to my life aquatic, and have (mostly) enjoyed making my own mistakes.

The best official training course I ever did was the RYA Sea Survival Certificate.

kraftee said:

Yep, number of posts certainly equates to how much one knows. Or does it equate to how much one likes to hear oneself pontificate?

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It says to me when I come to a new place that I should be careful of sarcasm and poking fun till the gang get's to know me...but then again my kids know that too....

I also worked for 3 years at a Sea Ray dealership as the primary delivery captain...most of them were pretty nice, and no where as clueless as some would have you think.

Again...pontificate.????..I'm not the one slamming Navy Ensigns and Sea Ray owners based on what?????

Try if you can to at least address the topic of the thread....if you can't maybe the mods can see to it.

eagle419 said:

"The most important thing I learned....... was an increased ability to judge my own ability against the conditions".

Absolutely spot on, Ghost.


Another source of boat-specific training might be the Previous Owner.

With my current boat, I made it a contracted condition of sale that after purchase, he spend a certain number of days at sea going through the many one-off systems with me.

He seemed to enjoy it, and even roped in another previous owner for more explanation of their quite eccentric installations.

I'm lucky enough to have gotten away with the 'have a go' approach to my life aquatic, and have (mostly) enjoyed making my own mistakes.

The best official training course I ever did was the RYA Sea Survival Certificate.

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Pretty cool...can you please elaborate a bit on what is covered in that certification!

You can google to get the details of the syllabus, but it includes safety gear and procedures signaling, plus plenty of practical in-the-water stuff like crew co-ordination, launching, boarding, and righting liferafts, helicopter rescue procedures, hypothermia etc.

You get a certificate which has to be kept up to date and is required here for category 1 ocean racing following the Sydney to Hobart tragedy.

My main takeout was that no matter what style of floating about you do, if you have thought through a procedure for emergencies, and you have even practiced it, you are way ahead of the game if/when the unexpected happens.

eagle419 said:

You can google to get the details of the syllabus, but it includes safety gear and procedures signaling, plus plenty of practical in-the-water stuff like crew co-ordination, launching, boarding, and righting liferafts, helicopter rescue procedures, hypothermia etc.

You get a certificate which has to be kept up to date and is required here for category 1 ocean racing following the Sydney to Hobart tragedy.

My main takeout was that no matter what style of floating about you do, if you have thought through a procedure for emergencies, and you have even practiced it, you are way ahead of the game if/when the unexpected happens.

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Great!

Exactly what many cruisers need...the plan for survival (and I'm not talking US coastal/ICW as that's a separate plan of attack)...starts with boat, gear, probability of needing true survival tactics, plan to implement, signaling, backups, secondary plan then full blown 7 (or so as taught) the steps of survival.

Survival is much more complicated than people think...just like safety...a simple term for a complex issue that has grown from something as simple as PPE all the way to full blown Operational Risk Management.

psneeld said:

Anyone taking any advanced training such as...survival, maintenance, advanced manual navigation??????

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Boydski said:

What they most commonly failed on was the Charting portion of the test (70% required to pass).

Most recreational boaters really do not know how to read and use paper charts (or do a set and drift calculation).

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Yeah, I was lucky enough to get military training in air navigation, all manual at the time... and while slightly different, it was close enough to give me a head-start on maritime nav.

Lots of other training over time, but things I find most useful are often centered on fixing stuff. The diesel courses, for example...

-Chris

ranger42c said:

Yeah, I was lucky enough to get military training in air navigation, all manual at the time... and while slightly different, it was close enough to give me a head-start on maritime nav.

Lots of other training over time, but things I find most useful are often centered on fixing stuff. The diesel courses, for example...

-Chris

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I still use my Jeppesen circular slide rule air computer to do time/distance a lot of times..

It's actually quicker than looking for the calculator and punching in the numbers...because my cruise is so consistent..can almost leave t set up or it's only a slight adjustment.

psneeld said:

Plus you think Fla is any diff than any where's else?

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Well we do have more registered boats than almost any other state. So that bumps the odds up a bit in all categories.

Not boasting but since you brought it up:

- Bacardi advanced cocktail mixing for the discriminating yachtsman.(Daily refresher courses at Bernies Beach Bar & Crabshack)
- Murphy's Law, Maritime version. (still in training)
- Spending like a drunken sailor - on a limitless budget. (co-sponsered by West Marine & the MOAA)
- Carefree boat investment & maintenance (courses through Scru,Gouge & Pillage Bankruptcy Trustees) NOTE: Prerequisite - Loosing your shirt with grace and dignity.
- Learning to love barnacles (free monthly hands on course at my boat, scraper provided)
- Everything you need to know about boats, School Of Hard Knocks, (lifetime enrollment)

MYTraveler said:

Like I tried to say -- by starting small and working your way up in order to show experience with something not too much smaller.

As for corporate owners, I bet their policies describe who can and cannot run the boat. Mine does -- if its not me at the helm (or at least on board) then it must be someone approved in advance by the insurer.

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If that's the case, I think your insurance policy is the exception, not the norm. My policy does not mention who can or cannot operate the boat. I'll bet if you ask Tom, Dick and Harry they will give the same answer.

Company owned - same thing. We're talking about boats not ships here.

Capt Kangeroo said:

Not boasting but since you brought it up:

- Bacardi advanced cocktail mixing for the discriminating yachtsman.(Daily refresher courses at Bernies Beach Bar & Crabshack)
- Murphy's Law, Maritime version. (still in training)
- Spending like a drunken sailor - on a limitless budget. (co-sponsered by West Marine & the MOAA)
- Carefree boat investment & maintenance (courses through Scru,Gouge & Pillage Bankruptcy Trustees) NOTE: Prerequisite - Loosing your shirt with grace and dignity.
- Learning to love barnacles (free monthly hands on course at my boat, scraper provided)
- Everything you need to know about boats, School Of Hard Knocks, (lifetime enrollment)

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Hey, we belong to many of the same alumni associations!
It's those non-stop continuing education requirements they all have....

Not sure where to start so first our training and experience prior to July, 2012. It was all lake boating except for a couple of fishing charters we might have gone on. The most recent was all on a 30' Cobalt with Twin 430 HP Volvo Gas Engines. I had just over 1000 days of "seatime" and she had just over 400 days. None of our boating really applicable to what we do now, other than just basic handling.

We moved to Ft. Lauderdale We found a captain, well actually two as husband and wife team prior to buying a boat. So we were prepared for them to train us. We also started classes.

So as to the formal training.

-11 Days of training for Captain's License, Master 100 ton which included navigation, tidal calculations, international and inland rules of the road, coastal pilotage, meteorology, anchoring and mooring, marlinespike, docking and undocking, buoyage systems, safety, voyage and passage planning, general ship knowledge regulations, stability and vessel construction, and seamanship.
-5 Day 200 Ton upgrade included Advanced Navigation Tides, Currents, Safety Seamanship, General ship knowledge, Stability & Construction
-Some day we'll take the 15 day upgrade for 500 etc. even if we never upgrade licenses.
-Advanced Fire Fighting
-FCC Marine Radio Operator
-Medical First Aid Care Provider, 3 Days, and Medical Person in Charge, 7 Days

We have no imperative need for the licensing but we just want to learn as much as possible. Many other courses on the horizon in future years.

Hands on Training started in 2012. For first several months we only operated boats while under the supervision of a licensed captain. They didn't just let us observe or take it easy on us. We had to do all the basic operating and they also subjected us to rough conditions where they trained us on handling those situations. They were tough teachers as we'd said we wanted. We have continued over the two years to cruise the East Coast, Gulf of Mexico, Alaska and the PNW, and the Bahamas. Far more weighted toward outside than the ICW. While we've taken short trips to West Palm, even as far north as Daytona and south to Miami and even Key West alone, the majority of our boating to date has been with one or both of them aboard and they have continued to instruct in new situations.

In the 22 months since starting hands on, we have cruised a total of 30,000 nm and I'd estimate 24,000 of that under Captain supervision and training. We have added approximately 380 days of seatime and that is with a very strict accounting, not the loose accounting of days at anchor or dock work some do.

When we decided to get into coastal and off shore boating, we both wanted to learn and be as skilled as we could. To us it's not about the licenses (although both now 200 Ton Near Coastal) but it's a pursuit of knowledge. We pursue that just as we did in our professions prior to retirement. We find it interesting and challenging and we're just not wanting to be along for the ride, but to learn and do. If we hit 10' waves we don't suddenly turn the boat over to the Captains but they train us on how to handle the situation. I remember the first time in the Gulf when we hit 6-8' and they worked us on them for hours with them hitting us from all different directions so we'd have the experience.

We have many more courses in mind as we'll probably take 3 or 4 per year when possible. Some of the courses like the medical we've really enjoyed. The fire fighting was not a fun course at all but worth doing. Celestial navigation is one that we have little interest in but feel like it's one we just should do. Diesel, we may yet give in and take a course but we'll never work on our own engines.

Now we recognize few have the time we do and most don't want to spend the time being taught or trained.

But what we do feel is that both formal courses and hands-on training have their place. Even if it's just a captain for your first three days it can be very helpful. But don't let them train you by just showing you. Have them make you do it under their supervision so they can teach you more. And don't just do the easy things. Practice going in and out of inlets and get comfortable with things that you're not at first.

And other than boating I had before my wife and I married, we've done it all together. Interchangeable too. Equal time at the helm, navigating, checking the ER, changing fuel filters.

rwidman said:

If that's the case, I think your insurance policy is the exception, not the norm. My policy does not mention who can or cannot operate the boat. I'll bet if you ask Tom, Dick and Harry they will give the same answer.

Company owned - same thing. We're talking about boats not ships here.

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Well, since neither of us is named Tom, Dick or Harry then guess we don't fit your statement. However, our insurer was definitely interested in who would be operating the boats. Ours is not 100% restricted but it does note those who generally will be either operating or at least on board and their level of training and experience and licensing.

I think this varies by insurer, size of boat, and level of insurance sought. We sought the fewest limitations possible on our policy. We also are insured with a marine insurer and not under a boat policy of a multiple line insurer more into cars and houses.

BandB said:

So as to the formal training.

-11 Days of training for Captain's License, Master 100 ton which included navigation, tidal calculations, international and inland rules of the road, coastal pilotage, meteorology, anchoring and mooring, marlinespike, docking and undocking, buoyage systems, safety, voyage and passage planning, general ship knowledge regulations, stability and vessel construction, and seamanship.
-5 Day 200 Ton upgrade included Advanced Navigation Tides, Currents, Safety Seamanship, General ship knowledge, Stability & Construction
-Some day we'll take the 15 day upgrade for 500 etc. even if we never upgrade licenses.
-Advanced Fire Fighting
-FCC Marine Radio Operator
-Medical First Aid Care Provider, 3 Days, and Medical Person in Charge, 7 Days

We have no imperative need for the licensing but we just want to learn as much as possible. Many other courses on the horizon in future years.

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How are you/will you managing to meet the % of seatime/tonnage requirements for the larger licenses?

Capt.Bill11 said:

How are you/will you managing to meet the % of seatime/tonnage requirements for the larger licenses?

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Larger boats. We've done a lot of chartering while waiting for our own boats. Higher than 200 T is not likely although as the rules change and evolve, who knows. The largest we've operated to date was 130' and 333 ITC. I don't recall it's US GT measurement off the top of my head.

And our mileage I mentioned has been possible only because some of it on faster boats.

In the last two years we've actually operated 11 or 12 total boats, 7 or 8 unique, as some of them were identical, just different charters. Call it an immersion course, like language immersion.

Still by heart and soul we're Trawler types as we love exploring different places. We just don't necessarily do it at Trawler speeds.

I do want to point out though that the licenses aren't really important in the picture, it's just we want to gain the knowledge and experience. I sure hope I never find myself using anything we learned in a fire fighting course and the same with the medical courses. On the other hand, the medical is likely. And prior to this, I'd never even taken a first aid course. Things like celestial navigation sound strange to some. But then if you've grown up navigating you probably learned many things we didn't. We've never been on a boat without full instruments and electronics. So, we have to learn a bit in reverse.

We love it all. Well, just don't ever want to work as much as sailors have to. Love being on a sailboat but someone else must do the hard work.