Dishwasher

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FF said:
Search the mfg literature before purchase to find out what is required to winterize the unit .

Some might be easier than others.

The most modern clothes washers and dish washers have computers that might not like an inverter , and most require a very long time for the operation.
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The computer boards on the clothes washers and dish washers are sensitive to inverters. This is not only an issue for modified versus true sine wave but the true sine wave output of the various models of the same manufacturer. If possible try to find another boater who has run the intended dish washer off the same model inverter you have. Of specific concern is the peak power needed to start the motors on the clothes and dish washers. This peak power requirement may be multiples of the rated wattage for the unit.
 
FF said:
Search the mfg literature before purchase to find out what is required to winterize the unit .

Some might be easier than others.

The most modern clothes washers and dish washers have computers that might not like an inverter , and most require a very long time for the operation.
Click to expand...

A pure sine wave inverter will run a washer or anything else just fine.

If I had a dishwasher I would probably not run it off of the inverter though. The reason is simply that it, along with the hot water it uses are fairly high energy loads. Because of this I prefer to manage these types of loads by running from generator power.
 
ksanders said:
A pure sine wave inverter will run a washer or anything else just fine.
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Be careful, the "pure sine wave" converters do have a variance in both the sine wave and the "peak" power. This has been a problem for certain units with computer control boards. The inverters do not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company.
 
>The inverters do not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company.<

Just as tiny noisemakers (under about 10KW) do not duplicate shore power.
 
No problem running our dishwasher while underway off the 3kW inverter. I let the alts come out of Bulk charge mode first though.
 
Bay Pelican said:
Be careful, the "pure sine wave" converters do have a variance in both the sine wave and the "peak" power. This has been a problem for certain units with computer control boards. The inverters do not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company.
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In what way does a properly sized sine wave inverter not duplicate the power coming from a generator or a utility company?
 
Unfortunately, I am not an electrical engineer to be able to explain it. When I went through this with my clothes washer and inverter, I was shown screen shots of the wave pattern from an oscilloscope. The wave pattern had differences from a comparison to the wave pattern from an utility. One solution to the wave pattern (not the peak power issue) is to use a run capacitor.
 
A couple of things --

Many houses and buildings are off the grid using inverters to convert stored energy to normal uses including dishwashers, washers, dryers etc. Living in AZ shows a plethora of solar based companies supplying parts and pieces for this endeavor. Twisted on this Forum has provided some information on how he does it. I could easily go off the grid where we live, just too much capital to justify it but not uncommon in our area.

Nordhavns made during the past decade are standard with grey water tanks as their vessels routinely travel to areas where grey water discharge is not permitted. Ditto other yacht builders. Washers and dishwashers use soaps that are not always Eco friendly. With many yacht basins and marinas having little flushing capacity, it makes sense to regulate grey water. It is not politics, it is good sense. I am reminded of this every time I clean out the shower sump.
 
I can agree to gray water holding the very minute every road, parking lot, roof etc...that surface drains into those sale waters is collected and properly disposed of.

Where I boat in the summer, the sheer numder of bathers, tubers, skiers, kneeboarders, windsurfers, small boaters who hop over the side, ad nauseum so clearly outweigh the boat gray water that it's mind boggling. Their body oils, effluent, suntan oils, har stuff, etc...etc probably creates a bigger slick than if I drained my oil straight into the water.

All that said...I try to be eco friendly...as I was at an environmental school and stuying the environment back in the mid-70's. Reality just caght up sooner or later. I would gladly pay for every marina to have pumpout at every slip...easily done compared to the required installed fuel systems many have.

But until all of it is reasonably regulated and everyone complies to even the most basic levels...even many small confined water areas are less threatened from boaters that the rest.
 
psneeld said:
I can agree to gray water holding the very minute every road, parking lot, roof etc...that surface drains into those sale waters is collected and properly disposed of.

Where I boat in the summer, the sheer numder of bathers, tubers, skiers, kneeboarders, windsurfers, small boaters who hop over the side, ad nauseum so clearly outweigh the boat gray water that it's mind boggling. Their body oils, effluent, suntan oils, har stuff, etc...etc probably creates a bigger slick than if I drained my oil straight into the water.

All that said...I try to be eco friendly...as I was at an environmental school and stuying the environment back in the mid-70's. Reality just caght up sooner or later. I would gladly pay for every marina to have pumpout at every slip...easily done compared to the required installed fuel systems many have.

But until all of it is reasonably regulated and everyone complies to even the most basic levels...even many small confined water areas are less threatened from boaters that the rest.
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great post!
HOLLYWOOD
 
At one point the federal government was going to require all boaters to get a permit for rainwater that landed on our boats and drained into the waterways.

BoatUS stepped in and helped squash that brilliant idea.

With people washing their boats while in the water, why single out "grey" water for regulation or containment? Is anyone suggesting we have our boats hauled just to wash them?

There are far too many government regulations as it is. Let's not ask for more.
 
Never occurred to us to put the DW on the inverter, for the simple reason that we like the heated dry function. None of our wide variety of "computerized" stuff that was hooked to the magnum MS4024 inverter ever had a problem. Not to say someone elses might not.

A good less than 10kw generator puts out very nice utility grade power. My experience is with a 9kw Kohler on a Mainship and a small 5kw Northern Lights on a GB. If you are paranoid, power conditioning equipment is available.
 
Bay Pelican said:
Unfortunately, I am not an electrical engineer to be able to explain it. When I went through this with my clothes washer and inverter, I was shown screen shots of the wave pattern from an oscilloscope. The wave pattern had differences from a comparison to the wave pattern from an utility. One solution to the wave pattern (not the peak power issue) is to use a run capacitor.
Click to expand...

A sine wave is a sine wave. If what you were shown was not a sine wave then it was not the output of a sine wave inverter.
 
rwidman said:
A sine wave is a sine wave. If what you were shown was not a sine wave then it was not the output of a sine wave inverter.
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Well, not exactly Ron. Last February and onward Marty posted a long series of articles on T&T about the issues he had getting a Magnum inverter (a smaller version of mine, but the same sort of circuitry) to interact with his Splendide washer dryer. You could go back to the archives there; a long list of posts including these:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/trawlers-and-trawlering/magnum$20splendide/trawlers-and-trawlering/Jd7Jlq3ylTg/vN9DX9cysM8J

The Magnum puts out a beautiful sinewave, normally, but it did not like the Splendide. I am over summarizing it.

Correction, I guess it was Al Thomason's thread, could have sworn Marty was involved along the way.
 
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caltexflanc said:
The Magnum puts out a beautiful sinewave, normally, but it did not like the Splendide. I am over summarizing it.

Correction, I guess it was Al Thomason's thread, could have sworn Marty was involved along the way.
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Actually both Al and I had the same problem. Al was able to correct his issue with the "sine" wave from the Magnum with a run capacitor. I corrected it with a change in models from Magnum (complements of Magnum). Other brands of inverters were able to run the washer dryer. Al posted photos of the readings from the inverter.
 
If a manufacturer describes their inverter as a "sine wave" output and it is not, that's false advertising or fraud. The term "sine wave" describes a particular waveform. If the output does not match that waveform, it is not a sine wave. You can several find pages of descriptions of a sine wave with a web search.

If one model from the manufacturer did not operate the product and the next one did, there was a problem with the first one. Perhaps at an extreme load the inverter could not produce a true sine wave. Or the output voltage dropped.
 
Ron

I think you have addressed a real issue. Inverters are sold as either modified or true sine wave. From what I have been led to believe the true sine wave inverters vary from the engineering standard slightly but are still sold as true sine wave. I could be wrong. And I admit to having no engineering experience.
 
PSneedl.....You nailed it. Here in Stewart Fl some of the most beautiful coastal areas in the USA is at risk because of pollution benefiting a handful of sugar plantation barons, Barrons that are not even cooperative in correcting, all the while lined up at the federal agriculture subsidy gravy train. The effulant from Lake Ochoachobee (or however ya spell it) is ruining the Indian River system. Also a big factor is the tens of thousands of septic tanks along the system. AND we worry about grey water from small boats. Kindda like stomping piss ants in the middle of an elephant stampede.:banghead:
Why you ask.....could it be....maybe because of the lobbying power and the prior purchase of elected officals....Naaah that could not be it. Could the fact if those tens of thousands of septic systems are brought to heel the the voters in the area will revolt...perhaps.
I do not think I will hang my hat on the pollution problems being fixed by heavy handed over regulation of small boats just yet.:confused:
 
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Bay Pelican said:
Ron

I think you have addressed a real issue. Inverters are sold as either modified or true sine wave. From what I have been led to believe the true sine wave inverters vary from the engineering standard slightly but are still sold as true sine wave. I could be wrong. And I admit to having no engineering experience.
Click to expand...

Reading just a bit from the link above, it appears that the reactive load is affecting the output waveform of the inverter. I would call that a defect in the design or the inverter. The manufacturer should consider what the consumer might choose to power from the inverter and either design it to handle those loads or warn the potential buyer what cannot be powered by it.
 
sunchaser said:
......... it makes sense to regulate grey water. It is not politics, it is good sense. ...........
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Regulations are politics. They are written and put into effect by politicians. The real problem with regulations pertaining to boating is, most of the politicians writing them are not boaters and they pander to the greater number of non boating voters and/or the enviroterrorists.
 
rwidman said:
Regulations are politics. They are written and put into effect by politicians..
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Nothing could be further from the truth.

Our polluted waterways, air and land are very much noted by fed up citizenry and changes made. To whit, lead in gasoline, coal burning in London two hundred years ago, burning garbage dumps, horrid old car exhaust, slaughterhouse effluent dumped directly into into the Chicago River, no sewage treatment for cities and towns. The list is endless as to what we desire to dump and a neighbor objects.

Having spent half a century dealing with governments world wide permitting, installing air pollution cleanup devices, water treatment plants, land refuse disposal etc - all I can say the world is making progress and in many cases is a much cleaner place but there will always be room for progress for those who care.
 
sunchaser said:
Nothing could be further from the truth. ....
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You are entitled to your opinion, but if you think my statement is untrue you must have missed your US Government classes in junior high school.

Why don't you go ahead and tell us who it is that writes regulations if it is not politicians?
 
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Well, here in Seattle we are doing our part in fighting pollution. At a beach in West Seattle, Alki Beach, there is a public bathhouse with a shower for people to wash off the sand, etc. after swimming and on a nearby dock, there is a fish cleaning station. Well, Seattle Public Utilities, our water & sewer agency, turned off the water to both claiming they were violating environmental laws by draining into Puget Sound. The spokesperson for SPU claimed that washing off sand was fine, but it was the "large" amounts of suntan lotion and oil (from a single shower) that were the problem. She did not address the fish cleaning station, but I assume that catching a fish and then returning part of it to the Sound must violate something! They will not turn the water back on until Seattle Parks & Rec replumbs both.
 
rwidman said:
You are entitled to your opinion, but if you think my statement is untrue you must have missed your US Government classes in junior high school.

Why don't you go ahead and tell us who it is that writes regulations if it is not politicians?
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Usta be politicians, good, then it became staffers for those politicians, still good, now it is lobbyist of the business that the regulations are likely to impact. The new Big Government is now Big Business. If you believe anything anymore is done for the ordinary American...I laugh...:rofl:. The ONLY way to return this country back to: of the people, for the people, by the people is for public financing of all elections and get the money out of politics so politicians serve the people not their donors. Your jr high civics class no longer applies.:facepalm:
 
rwidman said:
Reading just a bit from the link above, it appears that the reactive load is affecting the output waveform of the inverter. I would call that a defect in the design or the inverter. The manufacturer should consider what the consumer might choose to power from the inverter and either design it to handle those loads or warn the potential buyer what cannot be powered by it.
Click to expand...

Agree,
 
THD said:
Well, here in Seattle we are doing our part in fighting pollution. At a beach in West Seattle, Alki Beach, there is a public bathhouse with a shower for people to wash off the sand, etc. after swimming and on a nearby dock, there is a fish cleaning station. Well, Seattle Public Utilities, our water & sewer agency, turned off the water to both claiming they were violating environmental laws by draining into Puget Sound. The spokesperson for SPU claimed that washing off sand was fine, but it was the "large" amounts of suntan lotion and oil (from a single shower) that were the problem. She did not address the fish cleaning station, but I assume that catching a fish and then returning part of it to the Sound must violate something! They will not turn the water back on until Seattle Parks & Rec replumbs both.
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Isn't it fun when different parts of the government pass laws that conflict with each other and leave the public or business owners in the middle? Like when the health department bans dogs from restaurants but the ADA requires the restaurant to allow service dogs. Whatever the owner does he is breaking the law.

As for the fish, why is it OK to chop up a whole fish and dump it overboard as bait or chum but if you eat part of the fish first, the remainder is food waste and illegal to dump overboard?
 
Federal ADA trumps local health department regulations...so no conflict. Funny thing about dogs and health laws. A child in a grocery cart with a leaky diaper, face covered with shiny mucus is a human Petri dish that can carry all of the communicable diseases known to man. The dog does not carry any communicable disease that jump to man.........and we worry about dogs? Go figger?
 
Peter B said:
I have seen folk using the Fisher & Paykel dish drawer model in boats. I think they are available in the US. On a boat, unless huge, one would just have the single drawer model, although they are available normally in a double (one above the other) arrangement, which is what we have at home here and we love it. Very frugal on water, and very quiet, (you can't hear it washing), and this configuration would be ideal on a boat, because there is no door sticking out to bark your shins on or fall over when filling or emptying. The pic might illustrate this point better, so I just shot out to the kitchen and took one with the iPhone - ain't technorridgy great..? (Note to jnall - misspelling deliberate).
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We have the Fisher and Paykel single drawer on our boat and are very happy with it. We generally run it on the eco wash (no heated drying) and it takes about 35 minutes. It is not connected to our inverter. We usually run it as soon as we get back to the dock and it is done by the time we are ready to leave. It is more than 18" wide though. :) It is in the space that used to house the oven. We switched to a convection microwave over the fridge as our only oven.
 
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