What can Yanks learn from the Dutch?

From the "N47 - Out of Production" thread:

N4061 said:

PAE recently added the N47 to their list of "out of production" boats as buyer see the value in stepping up to the N52. Another sign of the times that the little guys (myself included) are being boxed out of the Full Displacement Hull Trawler game as the costs of building smaller boats don't make sense for the big three players. I'm looking forward to a high quality, smaller company to come in and pick up the 40'-49' market.

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So how is it that full displacement boat (whatever your definition of that happens to be) offerings keep shrinking in the US market, while across the pond in the Netherlands there seems to be a healthy market for such boats?

A quick cruise through YW would reveal a whole bunch of high quality boats that seem to have several redeeming qualities - none of which are embraced by the market here?

Here's what I see a lot of in the Dutch offerings:
Steel Full Displacement Hulls - many even with canoe sterns!
Low HP (<<200HP) AND healthy tankage (>>300 gal)
Low air draft (obviously a result of their cruising grounds)
Aft master cabin
Open living areas with good outside views
Usable outdoor living space on aft decks with outside steering
High levels of finish with YW prices that aren't out of this world

Brands such as Linssen, Drifter, Aquanaut, Almkotter, Stevenvlet, Gielen, Staverse, Vripack, etc, etc - Seems to be lots and lots of offerings out there (new or used) that have what I would imagine are extremely valuable attributes in US cruising grounds.

So what gives? What do the Dutch know that we Yanks don't?

So what gives? What do the Dutch know that we Yanks don't?

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I would suggest they know how to avoid an addiction to speed.

In 1981 I bought a new trawler style boat that cruised regularly about 7 knots. Since the boat was kept on the Tennessee River few around had even seen or heard of this kind of boat. It was my pride and joy. There was a guy that parked his house boat with the big front porch bow in. His boat had big Crusader gass engine. As I would walk down the dock, he would ask how fast does your boat go. Then he would laugh his big butt off. His boat would rarely leave the dock. When it did he very seldom ventured over 5 miles. Nothing wrong with that if that's your style.

One Sunday afternoon with many people on the dock he did the same in a louder that normal voice. I stopped in front of him for a minute, paused, and the dock got really quiet. I then answered him in a louder than normal voice. I said to him that I wasn't exactly sure about the top speed, but the last time I checked I was cruising exactly 7 knots faster than his boat. He never mentioned that again.

The Dutch have done a great job of putting out boats for the cruising conditions in Europe. Rivers, canals, and high fuel prices call for a more sedate pace of cruising. They build some great boats and mega yachts.

I've seen on YW that a few examples have been brought over - there's a couple of Linssens on the market now.

How instrusive/expensive would it be to be able to make these boats interoperable with US systems? I assume some sort of power conversion / rewire would be involved?

For the asking prices on YW, I am surprised more have not been shipped our voyaged over - I am assuming this is a result of shipping or rewire / mod costs.

Animal said:

For the asking prices on YW, I am surprised more have not been shipped our voyaged over - I am assuming this is a result of shipping or rewire / mod costs.

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Shipping would be expensive, rewiring would be minor in comparison I think. But I'll bet the big issue is that these boats look "different" than our boats and most potential buyers don't have the self-confidence to deal with that.

Animal said:

So what gives? What do the Dutch know that we Yanks don't?

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They no there is no real market for those boats over here. FD boats are a very small niche market here.

Then throw in the costs of getting the boats here, outfitting them with US compatible systems and parts and then backing them up with any kind of real service and I imagine there is no money in it.

refugio said:

Shipping would be expensive, rewiring would be minor in comparison I think. But I'll bet the big issue is that these boats look "different" than our boats and most potential buyers don't have the self-confidence to deal with that.

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Same counts for the dutch, thats why we love our "Steel" boats and less like the "Plastic" US ones.

The big hassle is steel is uncommon on small boats in the US , so it is totally unknown in terms of maint and upkeep.

Not many yards would tackle repairs to Yacht quality.

This keeps the price low , regardless of how fine the boats really are.

Still, it's an interesting topic.

One thing we have in the US is (relatively) lots of moorage for larger yachts - and the cost-effectiveness of our moorage favors large boats (up to maybe 65', where finding permanent and transient moorage gets more difficult). A 50' yacht in Europe is pretty special - but not here. And fiberglass is heavily slanted towards mass production once you have the tooling.

Look at our houses compared to equivalent homes in Europe. We clearly have (collectively) different values.

They no there is no real market for those boats over here. FD boats are a very small niche market here.

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Exactly my point - why? Does everyone really love getting their three story condos up on plane that much?

But I'll bet the big issue is that these boats look "different" than our boats and most potential buyers don't have the self-confidence to deal with that.

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Ugh - for me that'd be reason enough to cross an ocean to find something that isn't cookie cutter!

It just seems to me that these efficient steel boats would be a good fit to a lot of US cruising grounds. Just curious!

1988 Linssen 402 SX Royale Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Maybe our admirals don't like their paint jobs....or is that primer???

refugio said:

Still, it's an interesting topic.

One thing we have in the US is (relatively) lots of moorage for larger yachts - and the cost-effectiveness of our moorage favors large boats (up to maybe 65', where finding permanent and transient moorage gets more difficult). A 50' yacht in Europe is pretty special - but not here. And fiberglass is heavily slanted towards mass production once you have the tooling.

Look at our houses compared to equivalent homes in Europe. We clearly have (collectively) different values.

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Because if in The Netherlands a boat is smaller as 15 meter (~50') and can not go faster as 20 km/h (~11 knots) you don't need a licence nor registration.

Donsan said:

1988 Linssen 402 SX Royale Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Maybe our admirals don't like their paint jobs....or is that primer???

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Ha!! That certainly wasn't the Dutch cruiser I was think of! I'm sure that paint job has a story!!!

I was thinking more along these lines:

Kotter 1
Kotter 2

Reiziger said:

Because if in The Netherlands a boat is smaller as 15 meter (~50') and can not go faster as 20 km/h (~11 knots) you don't need a licence nor registration.

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Ah!!! Now we're on to something!

Animal said:

I've seen on YW that a few examples have been brought over - there's a couple of Linssens on the market now.

How instrusive/expensive would it be to be able to make these boats interoperable with US systems? I assume some sort of power conversion / rewire would be involved?

For the asking prices on YW, I am surprised more have not been shipped our voyaged over - I am assuming this is a result of shipping or rewire / mod costs.

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Seahorse Marine has steel Diesel Ducks that are made in China and can be shipped to the US but the cost of shipping and commissioning work is about $100,000! Some owners are buying in China and living in Asia for a few years on the $100K before sailing the boat back to the US.

$100k to ship the boat to the US is expensive, especially compared to the $500-600K boat purchase price.

Later,
Dan

35' Dutch Steel......

Just a few observations.
The reason the Dutch favour steel boats is that their canals freeze over in the winter and that can crush a fibreglass boat.
Many are lifted out and kept in heated boat sheds ashore over winter.
Linssen is a fine boat but one of the more expensive models.
The Dutch boat builders are very helpful and will certainly wire the boat to US standards if required.
Personally I wouldn't buy a steel boat unless it was sprayed with expanded polyurethane insulation before fitting out.
I was recently at the Dusseldorf boat show and some of the paint jobs on the hulls would match any car for the quality of finish.
H.I.S.W.A is the Dutch brokers association and they run the Amsterdam boat show.

Irish Rambler said:

...
Personally I wouldn't buy a steel boat unless it was sprayed with expanded polyurethane insulation before fitting out. ...

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Like this?

Irish Rambler said:

...
Personally I wouldn't buy a steel boat unless it was sprayed with expanded polyurethane insulation before fitting out.
....

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There is some debate about using expanded foam as insulation. One certainly wants a closed foam that does not absorb water. There is a foam product that one glues to the hull that can be used but it is expensive.

One needs a good insulation on a metal hull and the spray foam is ok by me.

What is most important is to use a 2-3 coats of epoxy paint to protect the metal from water/condensation to prevent rust. That is the key followed by an insulation that is very attached to the hull paint.

Later,
Dan

I would love to see a designer come up with a steel boat where the interior/deck/house could be unfastened from the hull and lifted out for easy access to the hull and maintenance when required.

psneeld said:

I would love to see a designer come up with a steel boat where the interior/deck/house could be unfastened from the hull and lifted out for easy access to the hull and maintenance when required.

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Already happens in The Netherlands.

Link: No Limit Ships

(Posted tool info here by mistake)

Not sure I'd want to pull that deck and house after wiring gets connected!

I suspect that's a new build.

Regardless of the forever claims made by the epoxt paint folks , a steel boat needs to be blasted to ,water white, every 15 to 20 years and properly painted Inside and Out .

The wiring should be able to lift with the deck , and the plumbing hoses simply cut to be replaced.

It would only be a matter of thinking it thru Before building , although lazy owners might screw up the works adding their goodies over the years.

FF said:

Regardless of the forever claims made by the epoxt paint folks , a steel boat needs to be blasted to ,water white, every 15 to 20 years and properly painted Inside and Out .

The wiring should be able to lift with the deck , and the plumbing hoses simply cut to be replaced.

It would only be a matter of thinking it thru Before building , although lazy owners might screw up the works adding their goodies over the years.

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good points...still would be an engineering trick to make it fit together...both assemblies (hull and inner) rigid enough to hold their shape.

Yet light enough for a smaller steel vessel and yet still easy enough to take apart and put back together so as the cost of doing it doesn't exceed just another well built steel boat that is designed to be disassembled enough to do what you say on a 15-20 year sched.

Here's something I saved from a well regarded. experienced marine author on foaming the interior of steel boats...


"Prospective owners might want to do some research on urethane foam. It is not impermeable to moisture, it may be full of fire retardant chemicals that will outgas forever and create a host of health issues (look up Chinese drywall) and if not treated is as bad as a fiberglass hull when a fire occurs with regard to flame spread and toxic gas production.

The areas where moisture from condensation reaches the hull will be invisible until the rust breaks through outside the hull. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, especially when it is formulated and applied in China."

dannc said:

Seahorse Marine has steel Diesel Ducks that are made in China and can be shipped to the US but the cost of shipping and commissioning work is about $100,000! Some owners are buying in China and living in Asia for a few years on the $100K before sailing the boat back to the US. $100k to ship the boat to the US is expensive, especially compared to the $500-600K boat purchase price.

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I do love those SHM Ducks - there are several Blogs that chronicle SHM Duck owners' return trip in their new Duck:
Shearwater
DavidEllis

...but I think that $100k has more to do with Uncle Sam gettin his share when a new unused boat lands on the dock rather than the pure shipping costs. No?

Not sure how this would be different for a used boat.

Anyone buy a used boat somewhere else and bring it back in? Same tax issues as importing a new boat?

Anyone ever have their boat shipped over an ocean on one of those services? Any idea on rough cost?

Last time I got a quote for a Krogen 42 it was $25,000 US from the US to the Med. Past experience in getting quotes is that you can save a good amount if you go at a time of year when the freighters are delivering boats in the opposite direction than that which you are traveling. For example going to the Med from North America in the fall when the bulk of the traffic is from the Med to North America or the Caribbean.

Fuel is cheap in the USA.

Don't need no FD.

psneeld said:

Here's something I saved from a well regarded. experienced marine author on foaming the interior of steel boats...


"Prospective owners might want to do some research on urethane foam. It is not impermeable to moisture, it may be full of fire retardant chemicals that will outgas forever and create a host of health issues (look up Chinese drywall) and if not treated is as bad as a fiberglass hull when a fire occurs with regard to flame spread and toxic gas production.

The areas where moisture from condensation reaches the hull will be invisible until the rust breaks through outside the hull. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, especially when it is formulated and applied in China."

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Burning of the foam is problematic since the foam is buried between the hull and finished walls. If the finished walls have burned enough to expose the foam, I would think flame spread and toxic gas production would be the least of the crew's worries. The fire burning the material in the cabin would kill anyone on board before the walls burned through to expose the foam.

One can have the foam painted to further protect the foam from flame, water and water vapor. Some closed cell foams will not burn in any case, just char, but I guess that gets back to his worry about out gassing. Closed foam should not absorb water unless left in water but if one was really concerned one could have the foam painted.

Did he say if the hull rusts after being painted with epoxy?

Certainly covering up a bare steel hull, without rust protection, is asking for trouble. People have been successfully using epoxy paints and expanded foam for decades now. Closed cell foam is the key. I have read of people using all sorts of material to insulate but they seem problematic to me since the material did not prevent air from getting to the hull. The people who have done this swear it works which tells me the epoxy paints are protecting the hull interior.

The Dashew FPB boats are using a sheet foam product that is interesting but expensive. It is some sort of closed cell foam that come in sheets/rolls. The issue with a sheet product is making sure there is complete contact and coverage of the hull to prevent air migration to the metal. Seems like the only way one could do that would be to have layers of the stuff. With a spray closed foam it is much easier to cover up everything. Keeping air away from the hull to prevent condensation is the goal.

Later,
Dan