Mh 17

On the information so far. Malaysian Airlines B777 Flight 17 was shot down by a sophisticated guided ground to air missile, probably of Russian manufacture, capable of reaching over 33000 feet. It occurred over war torn eastern Ukraine, fired by pro Russian rebel forces, which it seems thought they were shooting down a Ukraine military transport plane. Intercepted phone calls, if genuine, suggest rebel joy, followed by some disquiet after seeing what was on the ground, smoking, fragmented, was a commercial airliner.
280 passengers and 15 crew died on this flight between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur. 27 Australians including a nun from Sydney,and the nationals of many other other countries, died. Around 100 on board were to have continued on from KL to Melbourne Australia, for a medical conference. There was one Canadian on board, so far I`m unaware of any Americans but it would be surprising if there were not.
It is suggested that although the airspace was open, it might have been better to fly another route. Some airlines had changed routes,some had not. Be that as it may, the crash was due to the firing of a missile.
Many of us fly internationally, I have one, maybe 2, legs on MH, later this year,(if they don`t run out of B777s). We should reflect on the misfortune of these innocent passengers. It is early days, and even gaining access to the crash site in rebel held territory will be problematic. There is considerable potential for international conflict in this incident.
If anyone wants to discuss the incident or contribute, please do. I would like to keep it out of OTDE.

Lots of tinder out there right now. This certainly doesn't help matters any.

Aircraft have already been shot down over that region over the last month or so. Foolish to fly a commercial craft right over it. Should have chosen another course.

Morons. The world has too many morons. What a waste. Some eminent AIDS researchers going to a conference in Sidney.

Morons with a big shiny toy. Putin, you also are a moron.

"Hey guys, let's shoot this thing at something shiny. Oh look, there's one!"

Morons

Xsbank said:

"Hey guys, let's shoot this thing at something shiny. Oh look, there's one!"

Morons

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Kinda harsh assessment IMO. The morons where the owner of the aircraft that thought it prudent to fly nearly 300 innocent souls over an active battlefield. Whomever thought that was a good idea should be held criminally liable for this tragedy, again IMO.

Kind of a deja vu feeling.

1988: US warship shoots down Iranian airliner
An American naval warship patrolling in the Persian Gulf has shot down an Iranian passenger jet after apparently mistaking it for an F-14 fighter. All those on board the airliner - almost 300 people - are believed dead.
The plane, an Airbus A300, was making a routine flight from Bandar Abbas, in Iran, to Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.



The USS Vincennes had tracked the plane electronically and warned it to keep away. When it did not the ship fired two surface-to-air missiles, at least one of which hit the airliner.



Navy officials said the Vincennes' crew believed they were firing at an Iranian F14 jet fighter, although they had not confirmed this visually.

Unfortunately, there are mistakes made. The honorable own up to their mistakes while the cowardly lie and try to conceal their mistakes. The USA immediately owned up to the terrible error in shooting down the Iranian Air 655 which, some sources disagree, operated without its civilian-mode position reporting transponder. It was a grave error never denied by the US. That was not the case with the Korean Air 007 or this MH17 airliner shot down by Soviet/Russian operatives. In both cases, the state denied responsibility.

CP, you're blaming the victim. My take was he diverted for weather and that put him over the corner of Ukraine.

Normal people don't shoot at airliners, period. If you're going to have the big shiny toys, maybe you should learn how to use them?

I`ve not heard the flight altered course due to weather, I think it is a typical "great circle" route. The airspace was open, many airlines including top notch Singapore were using it,reportedly along with 100 or so other daily flights. I think the problem was no one knew the separatists had acquired Buk missiles, making the permitted above 32000ft routes unsafe.
As I hear it, the wreckage is being interfered with and pillaged. Will the physical evidence of causation be removed? Bodies and body parts lie about, yet there no humane mission to identify and repatriate remains to grieving families? Even in a war zone, this is appalling, making a truly awful the situation worse.
Flywright is right. Whoever stuffed up, own up, and start fixing up.

Has anyone heard of an explanation that shooting down the MH17 was other than a mistake? I can't think of a reason that benefits either side unless it was a plot by one side to blame the other.

Very advanced radar systems on the launcher-transponder should have given a big ID "MH 17" on the radar screen based upon transponder (similar to AIS). I would assume that the launch operator was untrained and I would agree a moron.

Bay Pelican said:

Has anyone heard of an explanation that shooting down the MH17 was other than a mistake?

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I`ve not heard otherwise Marty. I`d probably add "grossly negligent" before the word "mistake".

There was an opinion piece in a Sydney newspaper today running the line it is time to break up the Ukraine, let the pro Russian area secede and redraw the boundaries.

If the shooting down of the Malaysian flight was seen as a trigger for that outcome we are indeed sowing the seeds of future tragedy's.

In effect you would be giving up airliners as a legitimate terrorist bargaining chips, much like they became during the spate of hijacks in the 1970's and 80's.

What ever it takes those responsible must be found and tried for this, and somehow the Russians must be made to cooperate.

The morons where the owner of the aircraft that thought it prudent to fly nearly 300 innocent souls over an active battlefield. Whomever thought that was a good idea should be held criminally liable for this tragedy, again IMO.

From what I learned the aircraft WAS routed away from the area , but the route was thru a stormy area that contained CB.

The Captain , wanting a smoother ride for the pax chose the route as it was open and legal for him to fly there.

The morons are the folks that have no idea how commercial aviation actually functions , yet scream about nonsense.

ulysses said:

Very advanced radar systems on the launcher-transponder should have given a big ID "MH 17" on the radar screen based upon transponder (similar to AIS). I would assume that the launch operator was untrained and I would agree a moron.

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I believe the launcher systems are separate from the radar tracking systems. That being separate vehicles, as I think it should be.

The flight path used by Malaysian Airlines over the Ukraine was used by many airlines. British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa and KLM all flew the exact same path in the preceding few days.
High altitude commercial flights over war zones are were common until this regretful incident occurred. I expect Eurocontrol have been reviewing their flight path approval procedures.

Pat Buchanan did a pretty good piece on this. His take is that it was a colossal screw-up and not an act of terrorism or war. So everyone should just cool it with the talk of punishing Russia and escalating this into something we'll all regret.

Not sure he would be taking the same view if it it was an American airline with your nationals on board.

From reports so far it does seem that the shooting down was probably a cock up, however the point is these so called rebels are trained funded and armed by Russia.

They are fomenting and running this little war.

If it is true, as has been reported, that the missile launcher in question was driven back across the Russian boarder after the attack it speaks volumes for Russian complicity.

Do we really care so little for the people on board that Malaysian plane?

Applying the benefit of the doubt leaves a grossly negligent cock up of monumental proportions. I rate it as bad as Lockerbie. The behavior of the presumed culprits,claiming credit for the event until realizing what they had done, disrespecting the bodies, stealing valuables from the dead and using them, like watches, phones, credit cards, cutting into and tampering with the wreckage for questionable reasons, refusing timely humanitarian and investigative access, are significant compounding and indicative factors.
We are in Amsterdam later this year. Depending the day of the week, we were returning on MH17, now we are on a KLM flight to KL(possibly codeshare),then MH, KL>Sydney. I expect a memorial at Schipol I will visit to pay respects. I am proud of my country taking the lead for truth and justice, and the grim practical work to "bring them home" to their families, wherever they may be.

Very advanced radar systems on the launcher-transponder should have given a big ID "MH 17" on the radar screen based upon transponder (similar to AIS). I would assume that the launch operator was untrained and I would agree a moron.

Nope , they just had half of the complete system.

The could teack and launch , but not ID the aircraft , that was the second half of the system.

BruceK said:

Applying the benefit of the doubt leaves a grossly negligent cock up of monumental proportions. I rate it as bad as Lockerbie.

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Lockerbie was a well planned, deliberate attack against civilians. We don't know that was what happened to MH17. True, the result was the same, dead innocents, but the circumstances may have been completely different.

For now, I have to go with: "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

- Napoleon Bonaparte

BaltimoreLurker; For now said:

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- Napoleon Bonaparte

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I would exchange 'incompetance' for 'reckless indiference', and I am not sure what words I would ascribe to the looting of the bodies on the ground, barbaric comes to mind.

FF said:

Very advanced radar systems on the launcher-transponder should have given a big ID "MH 17" on the radar screen based upon transponder (similar to AIS). I would assume that the launch operator was untrained and I would agree a moron.

Nope , they just had half of the complete system.

The could teack and launch , but not ID the aircraft , that was the second half of the system.

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If that be so, inability to ID the aircraft is a compelling reason not to fire. Firing a deadly missile at an unidentified aircraft which might be a Ukrainian military plane, or might be a commercial airliner, or might be many things inbetween, is an appalling culpable inexcusable act.

Everyone ascribes what I consider "First World" warfare standards to an area that is decidedly not "First World". Not exactly a "Third World" to be sure but these "freedom fighters" are hardly as well drilled as say the Australian military. Ethnic wars in these parts have historically been quite barbaric by anyone's standards and when the participants act that way should come as no surprise to anyone aware of the history of this region.

I stand by my previous statement that flying passengers over an active war zone is stupid at best, criminally negligent at worst. Those of you that wish to voluntarily fly over this particular slice of the earth please by all means, book passage now and enjoy your flight as you will not be competing with me for a ticket.