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bshillam

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Joined
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Messages
801
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USA
Vessel Name
Our Heaven
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1997 4800 Navigator
Question,
I am new to the large boat ownership. I have a 34' Tollycraft with two start batteries, four house deep cycle. I am having a bunch of work done on the boat and am wondering if a high amp alternator is a good idea. Currently the alternators that are one the Crusaders are 55amp. What are your thoughts? Most of our time will be spent at State parks up in the San Juans. Your feedback is appreciated.
 
bshillam, I look forward to this discussion. I need a recommendation for 130 amp alternators and external regulators. I dont want the answer to be Balmar. The cost is BS.
 
I have a start battery and two 200 amp house batteries, plus an electric bow thruster but no electric stove, heater, or air conditioner on my 35-footer. The 100++ amp alternator (sans genset) takes it all in stride.

img_187999_0_25004085531e2d7ccd8683f0863e4037.jpg
 
You should ne able to find some bolt in alternators in the 75-95 amp range that won't cost mega $$.
 
I assume you have a gas galley and fridge? Your power requirements will dictate how you plan to charge the 12v system. In the San Juan's there is not much power at the Wa State parks. Do you have a generator on the tolly? A lot of people pickup the little Honda gens that are quiet and they run them to top the batteries off. I have read many strings on battery charging and I am sure you are going to hear it all depends on what you are using, how much power it takes, how long you want to sit still, how far you will be moving, etc. Do you want to start your main engine to charge a battery? With our setup, electric galley and multiple fridges, I have to run the generator for several hours a day to keep them up.

Have you been to Sucia yet? Wowzers! What a glorious place:). Anchor with the rest of the crowd in Echo Bay and enjoy! Mt. Rainier will be straight on... Come early for those buoys though:)
 
One reasonable approach is to match your alternator output to your battery bank and your expected running time.
If your house bank capacity is 450 amp-hours and your batteries are flooded lead-acid, conventional wisdom recommends that you don't use more than half the capacity before recharging. Your useable capacity between charges then is 225 ah, or maybe 2 days use on the batteries if you use your refrigerator.
If you use your existing self-regulated alternators, their charge curve is not very good and it would take several hours running to recharge -- they won't actually put out 55 amps, and they won't put out a consistent high charge rate. That's just the way self-regulated alternators work.
Flooded lead-acid batteries won't accept a charge higher than a certain level without boiling the batteries, and that rate is around 20-25% of their amp-hour capacity. For your hypothetical 450 ah bank, you don't want to charge at a rate much beyond 100 amps anyway, and that will give you a 2 1/4 hour recharge time for 2 days' use.

Some ways to do that include:

Externally regulating the alternators you have with a regulator that can control both alternators to charge one bank, with provision for an echo charge on your starter bank. Balmar and Ample Power both used to have regulators that will do this. The combined output would probably be close to 100 A, for a run-time of around 1 1/2 hour per day of battery use.

Put one 100 A alternator and smart regulator on one engine for the house bank, and leave the other 55 A for the start bank. 100 A is the recommend max for a single V-belt, run time will be around 1 1/2 hour for a day's use.

Get a Go-power 100 A charger and power it with a Honda generator. Your run time would basically be the same 1 1/2-2 hours per day of battery use, and the charger would keep your banks topped off at the dock. This also gives you AC power on the boat and gives you redundancy if somehow both banks become depleted. Although use of a gas-powered generator on board is somewhat controversial, this option may give you the most capability for the dollars.

Install a generator.

Forget all this, change all your lights to LEDs, and use an Engle Fridge-freezer to freeze blocks of ice which you then put in a cooler or in your un-plugged refrigerator.

If you have to replace the house bank and have the money, you might consider changing to AGM batteries and putting in 2 high-amp alternators, since AGMs will accept a much higher charge rate. This would give you a running time of maybe 45 minutes per day of battery use to recharge.

If you run on the plane, your legs in the San Juans won't be very long -- an hour would get you between almost any 2 points. Even at trawler speeds the legs aren't long, often not long enough to provide the necessary charge time.

Any way you go, many will recommend a battery monitor as a first step, so that you can accurately track your usage and recharge rate.

I have 1 125A Ample alternator with an external regulator to charge a 700 ah battery bank. We use 50% as our maximum discharge and use a generator to recharge if we aren't motoring. The other alternator is self-regulated and charges the starting bank, with the ability to interconnect the banks to start or charge either bank from either engine.
 
Alts are expensive and there are many partial truths from sellers.

A rebuilt Delco from Auto Zone can be had very inexpensivly ($30 bucks) made for an external Regulator ,
65A is any old Caddy. 1960 era

The key to all is an external regulator which tells the unit to charge fast and much better than the auto profile of a stock one wire V regulator .

Balmar , Les Tech or Ample power re-wounds or rebuilt alts suffer from low hot ratings so using a good V regulator will do little after the first 10 min of operation.

Its a big PIA but a real full sized 135+ (two foot) alt from a truck store will create its rated output hot , and will cost a fraction of a marine rewound.

This might require a second pulley on the front of the engine to use dual belts.

So the order of purchase would be first the SOC meter.SO you know whats happening .

Then a rebuilt Caddy 65A alt with good V regulator .Too cheap not to try with a modest batt set.

The removed alt. would be fine spare .

IF the run times are too long as you cruise , should you add batteries , the final step would be the bigger full sized alt, controlled by the better V reg. .

As second full sized alt belted of a noisemaker will complete the set for a big battery cruiser that loves the Sound of Silence.
 
Av8r, Great summary of the feasible choices.

Here's another good source for additional info:

Installing a high power alternator in your boat

I am confused, the article posted by FlyWright says the alternator should produce about 25% of the batteries capacity in a charging scenario, give or take.

However, I have just installed a new Victron, Inverter/Charger and according to the Victron engineer I spoke to they maintain the charging rate for lead acid batteries should be between 10-15 % of battery capacity.They reduced the Victron's charging capacity to my battery output.Anything above 15% is not recomended.

Is there a difference between charging through an alternator and a battery charger?
 
I am confused, the article posted by FlyWright says the alternator should produce about 25% of the batteries capacity in a charging scenario, give or take.

However, I have just installed a new Victron, Inverter/Charger and according to the Victron engineer I spoke to they maintain the charging rate for lead acid batteries should be between 10-15 % of battery capacity.They reduced the Victron's charging capacity to my battery output.Anything above 15% is not recomended.

Is there a difference between charging through an alternator and a battery charger?

May have to do with multi-stage charging and what voltages they charging unit is producing.

All to often we the customer has to figure out the apples to apples info as manufacturer's sometimes speak only from their reference point.
 
Great info regarding alternators... one thing the O.P forgot to mention is weather the boat is gas or diesel???

Many of the truck alternators are not sealed explosion proof units and as such should not be used in a gasser..

HOLLYWOOD
 
Summit Racing sells a shockingly (no pun intended) large selection of alternators in 6, 12, 12/16 & 24 volt applications with sizes ranging over 200 amps.

Someone may find something useful there.
 
Great info regarding alternators... one thing the O.P forgot to mention is weather the boat is gas or diesel???

Many of the truck alternators are not sealed explosion proof units and as such should not be used in a gasser..

HOLLYWOOD

I'm an ex Tollycraft owner (also a 34'), while I owned it I also wanted to up my alternator size. Hollywood is correct, very few higher output alts are suitable for a gasser. I spent a lot of time looking into this and had to lower my expectations, educate yourself before you buy anything.
 
Alts are expensive and there are many partial truths from sellers.

A rebuilt Delco from Auto Zone can be had very inexpensivly ($30 bucks) made for an external Regulator ,
65A is any old Caddy. 1960 era

The key to all is an external regulator which tells the unit to charge fast and much better than the auto profile of a stock one wire V regulator .

Balmar , Les Tech or Ample power re-wounds or rebuilt alts suffer from low hot ratings so using a good V regulator will do little after the first 10 min of operation.

Its a big PIA but a real full sized 135+ (two foot) alt from a truck store will create its rated output hot , and will cost a fraction of a marine rewound.

This might require a second pulley on the front of the engine to use dual belts.

So the order of purchase would be first the SOC meter.SO you know whats happening .

Then a rebuilt Caddy 65A alt with good V regulator .Too cheap not to try with a modest batt set.

The removed alt. would be fine spare .

IF the run times are too long as you cruise , should you add batteries , the final step would be the bigger full sized alt, controlled by the better V reg. .

As second full sized alt belted of a noisemaker will complete the set for a big battery cruiser that loves the Sound of Silence.

FF, I have read the suggestion for dual pulleys several times on the forum. I have a Cummins with a surpentine belt. Is the dual pulley necessary in my case for a 130 amp alt?
 

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My engines are gassers. Right now we envision taking about a two hour trip to one of the islands and staying a night if not two. We have a frig, 12v diesel heater forced air, water pump, and thats about it. I would say we're not heavy 12v users. No TV when boating. I also have a gen set but would like to run that as little as possible. Maybe run it in the late after noon for hot water showers? I have a dedicated battery for the gen set. So there is a lot of redundancy in the system as it stands. It's easy to get to the alternators now since the engines are sitting on the side of the boat. But I am trying to prioritize as there are a lot of things coming into the picture that need attention.
 
Bshill:
the most important part of your charging system is the regulator. You need to know how many amps are going into your batteries, and for how long. Likely your 55 amp alternators are internally regulated. this will allow 55 amps for a very short while, enough to replace the single digit no of amps used for starting the engine, but will then drop off and give you only 10 or so while idling or up to 15 or maybe 20 for a while while running. this is not adequate for battery charging on your fridge bank. Unless you have a DC only fridge, that load alone justifies a bigger alternator and a good, three stage regulator. Also check your genset/charger system for a decent regulator. that is just as important as on the alternator side.
I recommend at least 100 amp charging, on both the alternator and generator. If you don't have an inverter, get a smart regulator (Balmar is good, Ample Power is good, there are others) that will put out 100 amps continuously, in "bulk" mode, and drop to a trickle when 90% charge is achieved. If you are buying an inverter/charger, the same spec regulator should be in that system too. Every amp used has to be put back into your batteries.
If you can't get the alternator/charger output to the batteries, you have not solved the power supply problem.
 
>FF, I have read the suggestion for dual pulleys several times on the forum. I have a Cummins with a surpentine belt. Is the dual pulley necessary in my case for a 130 amp alt?<

No not at all the flat belts are used to get over the limitations of even big B sized V belts.

Heat is the enemy during rapid recharging so any improved big buck V regulator should have a temp sensor to install between the batts where ever the ventilation is poorest
 
At this point I guess I'll stick with the 55's as it appears we'll be using the 12v very little other than frig and heat. I have four golf cart batteries and I would be happy with two days of reserve. Specially if I just have to start the gen set to get the water hot for about a hour a night. Probably go with the most conservative approach - use the boat and go from there. If I have to add high amp alternators later than so be it.
 
Is the dual pulley necessary in my case for a 130 amp alt?
NO...I had my existing alternator rewound to increase the output to 140 amps and I drive it off the same belt that was on it before. It looks exactly like your belt. :blush:
 
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>At this point I guess I'll stick with the 55's as it appears we'll be using the 12v very little other than frig and heat<

One option would be to take your alt to a shop and have them remove the built in car V regulator and lead out a field wire.Not expensive.

This with any smart V reg will increase the charge rate while you operate for limited hours .

Depending on the fridge many will suck 100ah in 24 hours , which is a LOOOONG time to recharge with a one wire alt.

Again the SOC meter should be first upgrade , so you can know what is going on.
 
I did an analysis of my largest upright oldest 120 VAC land based refrigerator freezer.

Over exactly 24 hours, opening the door six times, the 60 Watt light bulb switching on, I measured 1.5 KWH at 120 VAC.

1.5 KWH 1500 watts
120 VAC 125 Amps
25 Inverter loss
62.5 watts/hour 150 AMPs for 24 hrs refrigerator

It looks like at 12 VDC I would use 150 Amp/24 hours.

My math look correct?
 
Again the SOC meter should be first upgrade , so you can know what is going on.
Aint that the truth! It only took me 18 years to learn that! :blush:
 
My 2 cents. In 1998 I installed an Ample Power 180 amp alternator, regulator and EmonII. Set it up to output 170 amps at cruising rpm which it has done faithfully for 15 years. It replaced the original John Deere alternator, added six golf cart batteries and never looked back. Now the boat has 12 golf carts, one bank and still the same alternator. Learned a few things -- Ample Power makes good stuff. A big battery bank is OK but you'll run out of hot water! The generator won't get much exercise and you'll need to add a big battery charger or use multiple chargers so you can balance the loads. I think in retrospect that our 1320 amp hour bank is too big.
 
"I think in retrospect that our 1320 amp hour bank is too big."

Once I had the charging under control, I reduced the no of batteries in use, from 2x 8D (bank 1) and 2 x 4D (bank 2) and 1 x 4D (start) to 4 x Golf (house) and 1 x 4D (start) and have never looked back.

First step in getting the charging under control is to reduce the loads by changing out the AC/DC fridge (150 amp hours in 24 hours avg) for a DC only fridge (32 amp hours in 24 hours avg).
Second step is a smart, 3 stage regulator for both the alternator and the charger.
Third step is upping the size of the alternator and the charger so 100 amps can be offered to the batteries when they need it.

The last part of that equation was accomplished 8 or 9 years ago. Battery life has also been extended, I don't yet know to what extent.
 
New gel coat needed

I guess it's a good thing that I decided to hold off on doing the high AMP alternators. After having polished the brow on the FB from the previous two owners decals and painted on name the gel is way to thin and needing some attention. We are going to have our new name put on the boat and it just looks plain ole ugly. Not even a ten foot boat - so we are going to respray the gel so when the new name goes on it will look top notch! Pictures to follow our new to us Tolly shortly.
 
I finished the installation of my Balmar 120A alternator with the Balmar Max Charge MC-614 external regulator. I learned that my alternator, model 621, is internally regulated yet external smart-regulator ready. There's a wiring option to install a double throw switch on the brown ignition wire to allow switching from the external reg to the internal reg in the event of an external regulator failure. I'll probably add this switch next month while enjoying a week or more at anchor throughout the CA Delta.
 

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I am confused, the article posted by FlyWright says the alternator should produce about 25% of the batteries capacity in a charging scenario, give or take.

However, I have just installed a new Victron, Inverter/Charger and according to the Victron engineer I spoke to they maintain the charging rate for lead acid batteries should be between 10-15 % of battery capacity.They reduced the Victron's charging capacity to my battery output.Anything above 15% is not recomended.

Is there a difference between charging through an alternator and a battery charger?


Andy: the 10-15% range used by Victron is conservative but well-suited to dockside charging. Alternator charging underway is often done more towards the upper end of the Acceptable range. In addition, your Victron has a MAX rated charging output of 100 or 120A (depending on model). That max is achieved only at 'standard temperature', which is 20C. As ambient temps climb above that, the Victrons (and most other quality chargers) de-rate progressively. In any event, experienced installers don't set the Victrons or MasterVolts up to operate at max output...they de-rate them by around 10%. So if you have a charger that is nominally 120A (say), I would expect the installer to have set the software to max out at 102-108A....which is probably 10-15% of your house bank capacity?..so all ties in well.
 
My Magnum 2800 charges at full/acceptable rated (115 to 125 dependent upon in or out) amps with a 35 degree C ER. No two inverter charger brands seem alike in this respect, temperature related setbacks are built into the modern units but advertising mumble jumbo is trumped by the fine print. My older Xantrex 3000 also put out full rated charging amps at 35C.

BTW, ER cooling fans help a lot in the PNW.

Short hops like the CA delta can obviously benefit from a big alternator. In our case lots of 8 hour runs will charge things up, provided the lift the arm on the ice maker is up. :thumb:
 
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