bayliners.

pura vida said:

we shopped and researched a lot of boats and ended up with our 08 490. We felt that the pilothouse bayliners and meridians were an exceptional value with great versatility. I too was put off by the bayliner name but had always been told that the motor yachts were great boats for the money.

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sweet photos!!!

I like that reverse camera setup you've got. Might do something similar on mine. Great way to keep an eye on the tender when underway


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Bayliners rap comes from people not understanding the difference between their smaller boats and their cruisers, motoryachts. Their small boats were built for entry level and lake use. However, their larger boats were built in Arlington, Washington and reflected the PNW construction quality. Brunswick only dropped the Bayliner cruisers because of pricing. They changed it to Meridian at a higher price. Subsequently production has moved and much more has changed.

Bayliner (again referring only to the cruiser, trawler, and motoryacht type) has to my knowledge and that of those very close to the line, never had a lamination failure in all these years. I wish the line as it once was still existed. I think of them in some ways like I would baby Pacific Mariners or Westports. If you take Bayliner below 65' and then the Pacific Mariner 65 (no longer produced) and the PM 85, then on up through WP from 98-164 you can easily see some similarities.

As to the Bayliner runabouts. Well, basically changed the industry. Made boating available, especially new boats, to a group of buyers previously priced out of the market.

pilothouse king said:

Values?
Let me tell ya'll a fact (as told to me by a good friend who was the Bayliner dealer for Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami Dade Counties since 1959) about the value of the products. When Brunswick bought Bayliner, they paid FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.. when they bought Sea Ray they paid Fifty Million.

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Well, actually those numbers aren't correct. Sea Ray was purchased in 1986 for $350 million. Bayliner was purchased in 1986 for $425 million. Still, Bayliner was the largest selling brand and did cost more.

Let me quote a Florida yacht broker who wrote this on the old Passagemaker forum about ten years ago. "It is better to be cruising in a Bayliner than standing on the beach watching the Nordhavns cruise by."
When I wrote that I said we can exchange Bayliner for Mainship or Sea Ray or any brand of boat less expensive than a Nordhavn. They are all great value boats for coastal cruising for much less than an ocean crossing vessel and not many boaters need an ocean crosser.

yachtbrokerguy said:

Let me quote a Florida yacht broker who wrote this on the old Passagemaker forum about ten years ago. "It is better to be cruising in a Bayliner than standing on the beach watching the Nordhavns cruise by."
When I wrote that I said we can exchange Bayliner for Mainship or Sea Ray or any brand of boat less expensive than a Nordhavn. They are all great value boats for coastal cruising for much less than an ocean crossing vessel and not many boaters need an ocean crosser.

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Until two years ago our cruising was on an inland lake. 30' Cobalt was our last boat there. I knew someone with a 51' Sundancer and they enjoyed it as their boat and lake cabin. We lived on the lake and wouldn't have traded our boat for theirs.

There are so many good boats available. People just need to define their needs and find the boat that best matches. We talk Nordhavn. I think they're a very good boat and I have no desire to own one. Our "play" boat, clearly not a Trawler and not what we're on at the moment, is a Riva and we've heard them called Euro-trash, why would anyone want a boat that used so much fuel, don't need to run more than 8 knots (it runs 40), won't ride like a trawler (true). It's about when we want to boat like we did on the lake, just the lake is much bigger. Not about cruising. One person will say only steel. I have great friends in the Netherlands and to them if it's not a Dutch boat, it's garbage. We got into talking Bayliner here and I'll tell you that the founder of Bayliner (who just sold Westport) still takes tremendous pride in the Bayliner Pilothouses. I'm not sure there's ever been a boat in it's range and price.

We so love boating and think there is no recreation to compare. I applaud any type boat that gets more people on the water, especially families. To me there's a sadness that for the average family with a couple of kids it's not affordable. I grew up boating. Wasn't a big boat. Father's fishing boat, then 17' Sea Ray and from there. It was never the boat, but the water. I love that builders like Chaparral with their H2O line and Glastron with their small outboard line and aluminum small boat builders are offering some entry level options. In trawlers and cruisers, I wish there was a builder like Bayliner was, even like Mainship and Carver once were. And while it's popular for yacht owners and trawler owners to look down on Sea Ray, well they've brought more pleasure to more people than any of the brands the rest of us own. No, I'm not going to buy a Sea Ray and circumnavigate the globe, but most people don't cross oceans. Oh and I'm very thankful that since some of the building innovations or the last 70's, the 80's and the 90's there are some incredible older boats that people can get into and have tremendous pleasure and happiness.

What Bayliner did, and I think it was a very good marketing move was to build brand loyalty.

Our first boat was a Bayliner 19' Cuddy cabin. We liked the boat, it worked well.

When we looked at bigger boats the 24 and 28' pilothouse models looked to use to be made for the Pacific NW conditions. We trusted the brand, and saw the value for the dollar and bought both models over time.

As we aged and our needs changed we looked at several brands of pilothouse liveaboard size coastal cruisers. In the end we chose the 4788 pilothouse.

Part of that was that we trusted Bayliner. More so was that we, liked the interior layout. It is very livable with straight and relativly few stairs, and all the features you need for extended life aboard.

ksanders said:

What Bayliner did, and I think it was a very good marketing move was to build brand loyalty.

Our first boat was a Bayliner 19' Cuddy cabin. We liked the boat, it worked well.

When we looked at bigger boats the 24 and 28' pilothouse models looked to use to be made for the Pacific NW conditions. We trusted the brand, and saw the value for the dollar and bought both models over time.

As we aged and our needs changed we looked at several brands of pilothouse liveaboard size coastal cruisers. In the end we chose the 4788 pilothouse.

Part of that was that we trusted Bayliner. More so was that we, liked the interior layout. It is very livable with straight and relativly few stairs, and all the features you need for extended life aboard.

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Growing up on the East Coast, I didn't know the Bayliner history or heritage. But it's clear on the pilothouse models that the heritage was very much PNW. But considering the founder was from the PNW and they started there, it all makes sense.

yachtbrokerguy said:

Let me quote a Florida yacht broker who wrote this on the old Passagemaker forum about ten years ago. "It is better to be cruising in a Bayliner than standing on the beach watching the Nordhavns cruise by."
When I wrote that I said we can exchange Bayliner for Mainship or Sea Ray or any brand of boat less expensive than a Nordhavn. They are all great value boats for coastal cruising for much less than an ocean crossing vessel and not many boaters need an ocean crosser.

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I'll expand on that a little to say...

"Its better to be cruising in your Bayliner than sitting in your office another decade to pay for your Nordhavn(or other million dollar boat)."

I've said this before but here it goes again...

Life is a tradeoff. A tradeoff of time vs money. Unless you win the life lottery and "strike it rich" by whatever means, you are trading your time for money. Surgeons trade time for money, Executives trade time for money, construction workers trade time for money. We all do it.

Like probably more than a few TF members I could today walk into a boat brokers office, pick a million dollar boat and consummate the sale. I have the liquidity, the income, and no debt except my boat. I'm probably a model million dollar boat buyer.

The problem is that I'd be promising years of my life away. Good years too. Years I'd have to continue to work to pay for the boat. That commitment would delay my retirement by several years. Probably close to a decade I'm guessing. A decade may not mean much at 25 but at 55 it can mean everything.

Several years ago I called on a FSBO boat in Washington. The owner told me he was a surgeon. He said he had equipped his boat for his dream of cruising to Alaska. The best of everything. Then he told me that he waited too long. He had a stroke and cannot ever take the boat on his dream trip. You could hear the sadness in his voice. He gambled with time and lost.

I'm not willing to take that risk. Too much at stake.

I'll cruise in my Bayliner.

Ksanders my thoughts exactly

Kevin-a lot of what you say makes perfect sense and is good advice for anyone. We did buy the million $$ boat, but we worked on a specific plan for about 15 years to be able to do so. We lived pretty far below what most would at our income level to be able to have the boat we wanted early enough in our lives to really enjoy it. (we actually got some criticism for that!) We had (and have) no debt and could make the purchase for cash without mortgaging our future years. Even at that, we did buy it used and from a guy similar to your example above. A 5 year old boat, originally bought by a guy in Colorado who thought he would be able to spend up to two months a year on it and take off in 5 years or so. As a business owner, he found he was not able to do that, he could not leave his business for extended periods. His kids got to the age where they would not leave home for such long periods-all with other things going on in their lives. Consequently we were the beneficiary- a five year old boat, professionally maintained with less than 400 hours on her, at about 60% of new cost.

As to Bayliner, if they are not good boats, there are a lot of owners (and more than a few of our friends) around the PNW that are going to be surprised to hear that, there are only about a million of them around here. The waiting line at the Locks each weekend looks like a Bayliner rendezvous.

THD said:

Kevin-a lot of what you say makes perfect sense and is good advice for anyone. We did buy the million $$ boat, but we worked on a specific plan for about 15 years to be able to do so. We lived pretty far below what most would at our income level to be able to have the boat we wanted early enough in our lives to really enjoy it. (we actually got some criticism for that!) We had (and have) no debt and could make the purchase for cash without mortgaging our future years. Even at that, we did buy it used and from a guy similar to your example above. A 5 year old boat, originally bought by a guy in Colorado who thought he would be able to spend up to two months a year on it and take off in 5 years or so. As a business owner, he found he was not able to do that, he could not leave his business for extended periods. His kids got to the age where they would not leave home for such long periods-all with other things going on in their lives. Consequently we were the beneficiary- a five year old boat, professionally maintained with less than 400 hours on her, at about 60% of new cost.

As to Bayliner, if they are not good boats, there are a lot of owners (and more than a few of our friends) around the PNW that are going to be surprised to hear that, there are only about a million of them around here. The waiting line at the Locks each weekend looks like a Bayliner rendezvous.

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You seem to have done it right. You thought it out early enough to make it work. If you have a specific goal then you can, and it sounds like you did, adjust your lives to meet that goal.

Its funny but the nearer I get to my retirement date (5 years 8 months) the more and more I see that the professionals I associate with seem to fall into two categories. They either thought it out, made specific goals and adjusted their lives to meet those goals, or they didn't, just living high on the hog hoping their 401-k's would catch up with their spending habits.

The former are the ones that I'm seeing actually retiring in their mid to late 50's or very early 60's. The latter I'm seeing in their 60's hating having to work, pissed off at the system and wondering what went wrong.

Two of them I know are brothers. One brother just bought a retirement home in Kona. He's retiring as soon as his home in Anchorage sells. The other brother is older, up to his ass in debt, and VERY unhappy. His wife retired and SPENT her lump sum pension while her husband was still working making well into six figures to support lifestyle choices.

My Admiral and I began our cruising on a Bayliner 2452 Express Cruiser. The chop was so rough inside the hull that you had to be careful where you reached in without looking. With 300 HP and a Bravo III duo-prop, it was great for planing but would work you to death at trawler speeds. The boat taught us everything we needed to choose the type of cruising we do now. Once we're finished cruising, it's conceivable that we'd look for a 4788 to live-aboard. Every boat show, I tour the Bayliners to see what ideas they've come up in their layouts. They know how to use space.

Kevin-I know plenty of folks in both camps as well. There is a third camp to which one of our business partners belongs-he has spent his life doing what he does, 60+ hours a week (he is in RE development) and he has had no interests at all outside of work. His wife keeps on him to retire and go enjoy life, but he just doesn't have a clue how to do that so he keep working and bitching about it!

Ksanders....ouch....the truth hurts. Well said! Your words resonate with me.

The conundrum for a lot of people is the ability to afford the dream in its perfect conceptual state. When I was in my forties the dream started around 65. Now at 54 the dream starts at 59. Less dollars involved, but plenty to do what we want.

THD said:

Kevin-I know plenty of folks in both camps as well. There is a third camp to which one of our business partners belongs-he has spent his life doing what he does, 60+ hours a week (he is in RE development) and he has had no interests at all outside of work. His wife keeps on him to retire and go enjoy life, but he just doesn't have a clue how to do that so he keep working and bitching about it!

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Yes, there is the third group. I know a guy that retired at 67 to approx 12K a month in combined income streams...plenty of money for his lifestyle. He got bored a couple years later and went back to his old job, giving up his company pension in the process.

I know another guy that is afraid of retiring. He is overweight, diabetic, in his 60's with no hobbies. His wife is in her 40's and doesnt want to quit work. He thinks if he retires he'll die.

Then there's another group...A very sad group. A group that lost it all trying to save their mate from terminal illness. A friend of mine's wife got cancer just before they were going to retire. She was terminal. They went outside our great medical insurance plan and spent every cent they had, hawked their house, everything, at one of the private experimental cancer hospitals.

She died, and he worked untill he became so frail in his 70's that he became a safety risk so they basically forced him into retirement.

After that my wife and I had some serious discussions about our end of life wishes, and what we do not want.

Kevin-your last story is a sad one, although also too common, especially Alzheimers' cases. Seems an increased life span comes with its own set of problems. My brother-in-law and I were talking just a few days ago about that. I am 65 and he is 68 and I have a 91 year old mother in law and he has a 94 year old mother. Both require time, attention and $$. We are the first generation where it is fairly common to be retired and still have living parents.

Like you, my wife and I have both reviewed our end of life wishes and made sure our children and others are well aware of them and that we expect them to be done as we wish.

I will be content to be wrapped is in a cushion cover (no sails!), have an anchor attached (only the right one!-a new debate) and dumped over the side!

Maintaining the drift. A friend with a trailer sailer, with ambitions for a keelboat, developed prostate cancer (almost certainly successfully eradicated), just after that his father died of cancer 6 weeks post diagnosis. They decided, we`re not waiting to pay down the house, sold the TS, bought a lovely Jeannou 32 sailboat. They are happy. Way to go!

Nothing like a story like that to make one ask the necessary questions, no? Anyhow, I've never seen anything wrong with a line of boats that excite all income levels to get aboard and discover something about themselves through enjoyment on the water. Part of the American Adventure is paying for your enjoyment in relative freedom.

Bottom line. No matter what the name plate may say, nor the level of trim finish. Regardless of price point, single or twin, center console or pilot house, v berth or king size full beam master with jacuzzi tub. Ice chest or Sub Zero, Coleman camp stove or custom made stainless Wolff.

We all share the same water and the same views.

CP-if you bought the Baden you get the underwater view as well!

CPseudonym said:

Bottom line. No matter what the name plate may say, nor the level of trim finish. Regardless of price point, single or twin, center console or pilot house, v berth or king size full beam master with jacuzzi tub. Ice chest or Sub Zero, Coleman camp stove or custom made stainless Wolff.

We all share the same water and the same views.

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Well said obi wan kenobi ... Hehe




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THD said:

CP-if you bought the Baden you get the underwater view as well!

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Sadly I cannot afford Baden, even in its current state, so will have to pass on that viewing opportunity.