Northern Marine Incident

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Moonstruck said:
For a Florida Bay Coaster the name says it all. Not intended for passage making.
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Stability is not a value but a range of values. The Coaster has some range of heel angle that if exceeded will cause her to turn turtle. The greater the distance between the center of buoyancy and the center of mass, the lower the range of stability. A sailboat is unstable upside down while the Coaster or the Baden would be quite happy in that position. There is even an advantage to having a lot of boat above the water in reduced roll rate, which is more comfortable than something snappier. Anyone who has been on a sailboat that has been dismasted will attest to how crazy the motion is for this very reason. It is also why they are building cruise ships so tall - they roll, but slowly. The tradeoff is that once the vessel exceeds that roll people die. In Baden's case, even if properly ballasted she is a dead duck at a heel angle greater than 65%, as far as I remember. I can think of lots of conditions offshore where even a 90' boat can be rolled through 65 degrees and if that happened to Baden she'd be a goner.

So when I see a boat like the Florida Coaster, I assume that she is well ballasted, but also know that when you start putting cars on the upper deck you want to avoid offshore conditions, which is how she is recommended to be used.
 
I live about 10 miles from Anacortes and frequent the town often. I have seen the boat before it was launched and by just looking at it I thought there is no way that boat was going to stay upright. It made for great talk amongst the locals!!!
 
???? Why was this thread moved?
 
Rambler said:
It got away from the science of fact and into the religion of beliefs. just my guess.
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Good comment - although wouldn't most threads belong in the Off Topic Forum then?
 
Rambler said:
It got away from the science of fact and into the religion of beliefs. just my guess.
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But, it's been that way since almost the beginning of the thread, so I don't get it either.
 
Comparing Baden and the Florida Bay does not really work, they are completely different boats. The beam/height ratio is far different. And Jay Benford actually did inclining tests and established real stability numbers.

Launching accidents are fairly common, here's another that's eerily similar

 
Tad Roberts said:
Comparing Baden and the Florida Bay does not really work, they are completely different boats. The beam/height ratio is far different. And Jay Benford actually did inclining tests and established real stability numbers.

Launching accidents are fairly common, here's another that's eerily similar
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So in your opinion...

Looking at one photo..or driving by a boat... gives a person plenty of info to determine stability?

Please feel free to ignore as I know I put you on the spot..:D
 
Interesting video. How prescient to have sirens sounding before the launching. What country was that filmed in. I was guessing Indonesia.
 
I noted that they now have a crane with a sling attached to the top deck of the Baden. It appears to serve no purpose other than to perhaps keep the boat from toppling over on the hard, which would seem to be the ultimate indignity.
 
Delfin said:
I noted that they now have a crane with a sling attached to the top deck of the Baden. It appears to serve no purpose other than to perhaps keep the boat from toppling over on the hard, which would seem to be the ultimate indignity.
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The word among the locals is they're going to remove some of the taller components, put the dollies back under her and move her back into the NM main building.
 
Edelweiss said:
The word among the locals is they're going to remove some of the taller components, put the dollies back under her and move her back into the NM main building.
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Maybe then roll her over in the street?

Will be interesting if she's moved back there. Only thing gained is not having to continue to pay storage. She's in a better position where she is to be loaded on a ship. Wonder who they get to move her? Not like anything is going to be done to her if they get her back there.
 
psneeld said:
So in your opinion...

Looking at one photo..or driving by a boat... gives a person plenty of info to determine stability?

Please feel free to ignore as I know I put you on the spot..:D
Click to expand...

No worries, I'm here to be put on the spot....sort of....But I don't like to argue...:)

It's a fair question. IMO the short answer (With my scientist hat on) is oh no, just looking at any vessel does not give anyone "plenty of info", and just looking cannot "determine stability".

I say this all the time, "Stability is not intuitive."

But looking can give an informed observer some clues as to how a particular vessel might behave. Of course the key there is "informed", we all base our ideas on our experience. I happen to have what I consider to be considerable experience with real world stability testing and calculation. Thus based on my experience I could question the stability of a heavily modified Gulfstar in another thread, just from a photograph.

Note that question is very different from condemn. And frankly I'm a bit appalled (or at least surprised) at the industry professionals who have condemned Baden based on her looks. True the boat would be my last choice for "The Ultimate Circumnavigator", as I think her former project manager/skipper/designer termed her. But that is a personal choice.

I can say that Baden, with 4 full decks and only 21'6" of beam, is a question mark as to stability. But without a serious study I cannot condemn the boat as unsafe. And, even though people mean well, I really distrust the "my brother said the crane driver.....". These statements always raise more questions than answers.

To honestly determine stability takes a lot of work, many hours of computer time and real world experimentation. And a huge amount of investigation of the ship. It's not easy or simple, it's a complex puzzle with hundreds of inputs. Which is why it is rarely undertaken for pleasure boats unless required by regulation. Which it is for all retail sales of pleasurecraft in the EU and Canada currently.
 
Canada had a spate of roll-over accidents with fish boats, primarily empty fish boats running without sufficient or no ballast. There were also a couple of cruise boats where the operators had added hot tubs to the top decks or dance boats where there was no limit to how many happy couples were allowed on the top deck... So now all commercial boats carrying passengers (not sure about cargo? Seems likely) have to pass a CSI inspection which includes stability testing. A not-new private vessel can be as bizarre as the owner wants it to be and there doesn't seem to be any prohibition or rules currently.
 
Tad Roberts said:
To honestly determine stability takes a lot of work, many hours of computer time and real world experimentation...

...Which is why it is rarely undertaken for pleasure boats unless required by regulation. Which it is for all retail sales of pleasurecraft in the EU and Canada currently.
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And by omission, not the US?
 
Tad Roberts said:
No worries, I'm here to be put on the spot....sort of....But I don't like to argue...:)

It's a fair question. ..................edited for brevity...........

I say this all the time, "Stability is not intuitive."

edited for brevity .
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Thank you....:thumb:
 
Xsbank said:
Canada had a spate of roll-over accidents with fish boats, primarily empty fish boats running without sufficient or no ballast. There were also a couple of cruise boats where the operators had added hot tubs to the top decks or dance boats where there was no limit to how many happy couples were allowed on the top deck... So now all commercial boats carrying passengers (not sure about cargo? Seems likely) have to pass a CSI inspection which includes stability testing. A not-new private vessel can be as bizarre as the owner wants it to be and there doesn't seem to be any prohibition or rules currently.
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Right, actually all Canadian commercial vessels have come under TC inspection for a long time and passenger (and cargo) vessels have had stability requirements for many years. In 2007 Canada adopted a new shipping act which started to bring us into alignment with EU ISO(International Standards Organization) standards. What mainly changed was the requirements got more complex, covered smaller vessels, and covered small pleasure craft. So now TP1332 covers small pleasure craft to 6m length and ISO 12217-1 covers vessels from 6m to 24m.

Note that in the US there were no applicable pleasure craft stability standards for the Baden so they used a CFR commercial vessel standard. That's outlined in the Roddan report.
 
Thanks to member Rickized who sent me the below pictures of Baden being moved to a Northern Marine/New World Yachts building. This explains why the crane was in place I saw yesterday - removing part of the tippy top so it would fit in the building. Note the lack of damage to the port stabilizer, which according to the spokesman for NM, is what the entire boat tripped over when it capsized.

p.s. the shot of Mount Baker is a transparent attempt by Californian Rickized to promote the Northwest as a place to live to other Californians, a trend I think we can all deplore.....
 

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Tad Roberts said:
No worries, I'm here to be put on the spot....sort of....But I don't like to argue...:)

It's a fair question. IMO the short answer (With my scientist hat on) is oh no, just looking at any vessel does not give anyone "plenty of info", and just looking cannot "determine stability".

I say this all the time, "Stability is not intuitive."

But looking can give an informed observer some clues as to how a particular vessel might behave. Of course the key there is "informed", we all base our ideas on our experience. I happen to have what I consider to be considerable experience with real world stability testing and calculation. Thus based on my experience I could question the stability of a heavily modified Gulfstar in another thread, just from a photograph.

Note that question is very different from condemn. And frankly I'm a bit appalled (or at least surprised) at the industry professionals who have condemned Baden based on her looks. True the boat would be my last choice for "The Ultimate Circumnavigator", as I think her former project manager/skipper/designer termed her. But that is a personal choice.

I can say that Baden, with 4 full decks and only 21'6" of beam, is a question mark as to stability. But without a serious study I cannot condemn the boat as unsafe. And, even though people mean well, I really distrust the "my brother said the crane driver.....". These statements always raise more questions than answers.

To honestly determine stability takes a lot of work, many hours of computer time and real world experimentation. And a huge amount of investigation of the ship. It's not easy or simple, it's a complex puzzle with hundreds of inputs. Which is why it is rarely undertaken for pleasure boats unless required by regulation. Which it is for all retail sales of pleasurecraft in the EU and Canada currently.
Click to expand...
Thanks Tad.

To what degree does the 10 page Roddan study represent the kind of detail needed? Also, do you find the fact that the maximum stable heel angle even if ballasted as recommended is only 65 degrees as shown in appendix 4 to be worrisome? Seems like there would be a lot of conditions I could imagine her being exposed to as the 'Ultimate World Cruiser' that might result in a greater heel angle.
 
Delfin said:
Thanks Tad.

To what degree does the 10 page Roddan study represent the kind of detail needed? Also, do you find the fact that the maximum stable heel angle even if ballasted as recommended is only 65 degrees as shown in appendix 4 to be worrisome? Seems like there would be a lot of conditions I could imagine her being exposed to as the 'Ultimate World Cruiser' that might result in a greater heel angle.
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A lot of conditions where the heel angle would be GREATER than 65 degrees!?

I would think not. You would almost have to be cruising around with a total disregard for weather forecasts and spending time in very large beam seas for no good reason to see that at all I would think. Let alone see angles greater than that ever.
 
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Beating our way back in from fishing in the straits a gale blew up. The net was on the reel and fish hold empty, we took a wave broadside that rolled us up on our beam probably 50 degrees. It threw the crew on the floor and everything that wasn't fastened down on top of us. The boat just hung there for a minute (probably seconds :eek:) and I thought we were done for!!

Fortunately no one was on deck or they would have been gone.

I can't even imagine a 65 degree roll.
 
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Capt.Bill11 said:
A lot of conditions where the heel angle would be GREATER than 65 degrees!?

I would think not. You would almost have to be cruising around with a total disregard for weather forecasts and spending time in very large beam seas for no good reason to see that at all I would think. Let alone see angles greater than that at all.
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When sailing from Kona to Maui through the Alenuihaha Channel we were advised to leave in the middle of the night, as the trade winds present a beam sea. I asked how bad it could be and was reminded that a 125' training sailing vessel had been rolled and sunk a few years before. You needn't look far in sailing literature written by people who are quite cautious, nor spend much time at sea to imagine conditions where you can find yourselves on your beam ends. A wave around 30% of boat length, if hitting a vessel on the beam, is sufficient to capsize a vessel. In Baden's case, that is a 30' high wave. Ever seen one of those? Really rare, do you think?

Stuff happens at sea. Floating rubbish gets wrapped around props, engines break down, etc. etc. etc. so finding yourself beam onto seas is not hard for me to imagine. Is it for you?

If you advertise a vessel that is the "Ultimate World Cruiser" my question was simply whether a boat that sinks if it rolls 65 degrees qualifies. The Baden is upside down and stable at 65 degrees. A monohull sailboat will typically continue to roll over at 120 degrees but likely recover. A cat will capsize and stay over at 85 degrees. A trimaran at 110 degrees. See the difference?
 
Edelweiss said:
Beating our way back in from fishing in the straits a gale blew up. The net was on the reel and fish hold empty, we took a wave broadside that rolled us up on our beam probably 50 degrees. It threw the crew on the floor and everything that wasn't fastened down on top of us. The boat just hung there for a minute (probably seconds :eek:) and I thought we were done for!!

Fortunately no one was on deck or they would have been gone.

I can't even imagine a 65 degree roll.
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And that in the straits. My point is simply that you could probably imagine a roll of 50 degrees in inland waters since you've experienced it, so you probably wouldn't be shocked to hear that vessels get knocked down in the ocean. I mean, really? The most recent loss I am aware of is a British sailing vessel that went down in 20 foot seas on their way home from the Caribbean. Like I said, stuff happens.

4 British sailors missing at sea after yacht believed to have capsized in mid-Atlantic | Mail Online
 
Delfin said:
When sailing from Kona to Maui through the Alenuihaha Channel we were advised to leave in the middle of the night, as the trade winds present a beam sea. I asked how bad it could be and was reminded that a 125' training sailing vessel had been rolled and sunk a few years before. You needn't look far in sailing literature written by people who are quite cautious, nor spend much time at sea to imagine conditions where you can find yourselves on your beam ends. A wave around 30% of boat length, if hitting a vessel on the beam, is sufficient to capsize a vessel. In Baden's case, that is a 30' high wave. Ever seen one of those? Really rare, do you think?

Stuff happens at sea. Floating rubbish gets wrapped around props, engines break down, etc. etc. etc. so finding yourself beam onto seas is not hard for me to imagine. Is it for you?

If you advertise a vessel that is the "Ultimate World Cruiser" my question was simply whether a boat that sinks if it rolls 65 degrees qualifies. The Baden is upside down and stable at 65 degrees. A monohull sailboat will typically continue to roll over at 120 degrees but likely recover. A cat will capsize and stay over at 85 degrees. A trimaran at 110 degrees. See the difference?
Click to expand...


I think you read to much into the obvious hype in the "Ultimate World Cruiser" BS that I recall came from the former captain/project manager/BS artist.

Sure **** happens. But if it happens to you a lot you are doing something wrong.

30 foot waves aren't rare. Finding yourself a beam in them should be if you are just out there cruising in a power boat.

Finding myself in beam sea is easy for me to imagine. Finding myself in beam seas so big and of the type that I might capsize, not as much.

Yes I see the difference. A power boat is not a sailboat.

I have a couple of questions for you.

Would you have gone out into the Alenuihaha Channel in your boat in conditions that could capsize a 125' sailing ship? Or wait for a better weather window?
 
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I think we figured out long ago this isn't the "Ultimate World Cruiser." Of course, I can't imagine a 90' glass boat would ever be that. Whether it's potentially some form of usable boat is still in question. Now it can sit back at New World with the others not being worked on.

As to stability standards, I would certainly imagine they were required by the insurer in this case. Also, if I was building a 90' boat for ocean travel, I'd require it being classed and that would include stability standards and require stability testing. So, might more standards be nice? Yes. But I doubt lack of regulation is at all the real issue in this case. The stability testing and pass or fail would come later in the process. Plus knowing of another boat sold a few years ago that wouldn't pass class standards (Contract required Veritas), it didn't prevent the issues, just was applicable in the litigation that followed.
 
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