Boat Insurance Companies

I'll be buying a 37 Tolly within the next two weeks and I assume I will need to insure it before we move it to it's new morage. So any thoughts on who to insure the boat with? I have already applied for a quote from Boat US. Yes I did search the forum.

We use to have Boat US as well and still do the towing package but after shopping some we found a TF member Pau Hana who found a comparable package for significantly less. Do a search for Pau Hana and contact Peter to get a quote. Good Guy.

Peter@anchormarinenet.com. Peter Ricks.

You will get a comparison Quote that you will like.

We are happy with Pete!

We experienced serious hull damage 2 weeks ago. We are insured by Markel, thru Al Golden at IMIS. The grounding occurred on Wed, June 25th. The extent of damage was determined by a diver on Thurs, June 26th. The insurance company was notified of the claim on June 26th. The boat was hauled on the 26th, surveyed by an adjuster on the 26th, and examined by a contractor on the 26th. All information was forwarded to Markel's claims examiner by the adjuster on Sun, Jun 29th. Claim was approved on Mon, Jun 30th and repair work was started on Mon, Jun 30th. The amount of the claim is in excess of $10,000. Needless to say, we are more than happy to recommend both Al Golden (IMIS) and Markel, tremendous service from both the broker and the insurance company.

I've used Rich Haynie Insurance in Seattle for several years and have been very happy with them. When my 330 Sundancer got hit by a BUI they were very helpful in getting my claim resolved and the $$$ for a replacement boat.

Pierce said:

I'll be buying a 37 Tolly within the next two weeks and I assume I will need to insure it before we move it to it's new morage. So any thoughts on who to insure the boat with? I have already applied for a quote from Boat US. Yes I did search the forum.

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Insurance isn't required as a condition of vessel ownership unless your lienholder (if applicable) requires it, or your marina requires it.

That being said, a marine calamity can happen suddenly, and the costs involved can escalate far beyond the means of most- especially if pollution and wreck removal are involved.

The greatest advice I offer is to read your policy- the devil is in the details, and there are traps aplenty that you can avoid. Your agent should be able to discuss and explain the policy details so you understand them.

Take price out of the equation when researching coverage- it's a false indicator. Coverage limits must be the determining factor.

I'd be happy to chat when you have time.

Pierce said:

I'll be buying a 37 Tolly within the next two weeks and I assume I will need to insure it before we move it to it's new morage. So any thoughts on who to insure the boat with? I have already applied for a quote from Boat US. Yes I did search the forum.

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I've had Boat US for over 12 years. Rates have stayed relatively stable and no additional surveys, but we live in the PNW, so not a high risk area. They don't demand surveys every 4 or 5 years at your expense like most of the other companies. If they do it's generally in the water and they pay for the survey. Be sure and ask that question when you're shopping insurance. The company I switched from, after no claims in 22 years, began asking for a survey every 3 years at my expense, because the boat was over 20 years old.

I also like that Boat US is very active in the boating community standing up for boaters rights legislatively and they are a strong voice in congress. They produce a monthly members magazine full of many interesting and informative articles. They also offer on line boater training classes and certification for your state boaters permit/license/card. Lot's of support you won't get anywhere else!!

Thanks very much for the replies gentlemen! You have given me much food for thought. Literally!!

Be very careful to know exactly what they cover and don't. Environmental is one of the huge areas of difference as is salvage. Are there limitations on area of use?

I'd recommend finding a broker you really feel you can trust though who educates you as to the differences. In addition to the brokers mentioned here, Pantaenius has a good reputation. Read the complete policy before buying.

On the Bayliner forum Paul Hana wrote a comprehensive article on insurance that they kept as a sticky.

timjet said:

On the Bayliner forum Paul Hana wrote a comprehensive article on insurance that they kept as a sticky.

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Here you go:

Bayliner Owners Club - BOC Forum - Topic: Vessel insurance 101 (Very simplified!!!) (1/2)

One of Peter's first comments in his Bayliner post is to read the policy. I'd say this on any insurance policy, although auto is more standard. But people incur huge losses on homes and boats because they aren't covered for something they thought they were. It's also important to read to know exactly what your obligation is in the event of a problem.

The advice to read your boat policy is a good. I suggest you check around the internet for articles and postings on what to look for in a policy before you read it. There are things such as replacement value, actual cash value, hidden defects, consequences of mechanical breakdown, racing and on and on which have a real effect on whether you will be covered in a situation. If you have a list of what to look for you will be able to spot your policy's provision. It is best to know these before you have the claim.

Bay Pelican said:

The advice to read your boat policy is a good. I suggest you check around the internet for articles and postings on what to look for in a policy before you read it. There are things such as replacement value, actual cash value, hidden defects, consequences of mechanical breakdown, racing and on and on which have a real effect on whether you will be covered in a situation. If you have a list of what to look for you will be able to spot your policy's provision. It is best to know these before you have the claim.

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Although I've read and reviewed 100's of policies in my life, we also have others read the policy. We have a lost control professional in our businesses who handles all our business insurance and also our personal for us (yes our business does charge us for that) and she does and our attorney does.

Call Mary at ALTinsurancegroup in Anacortes. She has more Tollys insured than anyone.

ghost said:

Call Mary at ALTinsurancegroup in Anacortes. She has more Tollys insured than anyone.

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Respectfully, I cannot agree. ALT Insurance primarily represents Premier Insurance, a company bused in Vancouver, BC, and underwritten by Lloyds of London.

The Premier policy covers you for any “external” cause of loss subject to the exclusions vs. the any other marine insurance insurer that will pay any loss subject to the exclusions. The word “external” in the policy is a major loophole and we’ve seen many claims denied because the insured could not show that the cause was external (originating outside the vessel).

Just because an insurance company writes a large number of a brand of boat doesn't mean too much when the policy is pretty weak.

Once upon a time I collected a file of the actual policies. Admittedly after reviewing them all with a fine tooth comb (including Premier), I personally went with Chubb. Not at all the cheapest policy, but about the best written. I've been thinking of switching though to save some money as I know too many Tolly owners(including one on the fire in LaConner), who have had nothing but good luck when the time came to need it.

As far as Premier, I had them once in the past. I had a problem that originated with the agent (Anchor Marine) telling me that things expensive things were not covered that actually were (latent defect clause). Cost me about 20K by the time I figured it out. That's when I had the motivation to start reading policy's line by line and learn things such as latent defect clauses.

Premier has been very interested in the business they have picked up from the Tolly's. From what I have seen, they have stepped up to the plate and have not hassled folks on claims.

I'm not quite so sure about the "many" claims denied, or the sneaky language. If I could find the policy, I could better form an opinion, though I do recall they were in my top 3 of the best policies.

But maybe the language is not the most important thing after all. I've see Mary as an agent really support her clients in ways that others did not. I think this is a fanatically important aspect.

When I was with a former agency, they did everything they could to prevent claims. I wish I was smarter then, because I know for a fact that where I was trusting my agent to be my go between, i should in fact have been speaking with the company personally. Hard way to learn. I also know some other boating acquaintances, more recently who go screwed over by the same folks. In that case I had to laugh to myself when they told me of a salvage/"surveyor" who I knew from my diving days who did an absolute hatchet job on a survey to allow a claim to be denied. If it wasn't for the fact that I knew "all about" this particular surveyor and when/why you call him I would not have been any wiser as a consumer. I don't know how widespread these hijinks are in the local boat insurance community, but I know enough now that it certainly goes on and its intentional, not innocent mistakes. I would not go through anyone I did not know I could trust, just too much to lose.

So I guess what i'm saying here, is that the choice of agent is at least as important as the insurer. I would not have said that ten years ago. Hopefully that's a sign of doing something right.

Chubb is a good policy, ghost.

I can send you the Premier policy if you'd like - I keep them on file. I also have a binder of denied claims on the shelf for claims such as these. We rolled (moved) a large book of business from Premier because of claims such as these, and lost money in the process.

With regards to Anchor Marine- I'd like to know more about your claim challenges, as I am with them. PM me your info, so I can research what happened with your claim. If the "former agency" you refer to is also Anchor Marine, tell me more- I am the VP of Anchor Marine, and would like to know specifics of how an agency "was doing everything they could to prevent claims." An agent or agency cannot prevent claims- we can only do as the client requests.

Please advise.

I agree. I've known Mary one of the owners of ALT insurance for 15 or 20 years, her boat is near me. She does not have my boat insurance, mainly because I'm happy with who I have.

I've heard good things about Premier Ins. and my boating friends who have had claims with them were happy with the results. During the LaConner boat fire, that Ghost referred to, I know Mary was at the fire scene and was communicating by phone with her out of town boat owners who had boats in Shelter Bay Marina. I believe she had one 50' that was a total loss and another with some damage. Within a week of the fire she took them to dinner and handed them a check from Premier for their loss.

That's what you're looking for insurance.

Peter, I'll do you the courtesy to take this offline with you at this point. This was many years ago and I did not know that this was your agency when I made the post. I'm happy to provide the particulars.

Sounds good- standing by.

I'm interested, as I'd like to review and ensure that my agents are doing right by the client at all times. I always appreciate feedback- it can only make us better.

Peter, I have to say that my phone has been blowing up since your post. I am one of the owners of ALT Insurance Group. I have represented Premier Marine for many years. I am not sure if you are aware of all of the changes that have gone on since you lost your appointment with Premier Marine. I have the exact opposite experience with them than you have. There are many ways to read policy language. The policies vary greatly in coverage's as you know, as do the agencies. No policy covers items of maintenance. There has to be a determination of cause of loss in any case. I have never had Premier Marine not cover a claim that I thought they should have. They are not the only carrier that I use but their quality of service has me sending them a lot of business. I can call the CEO on his cell phone and speak with him any time there is an issue. That is invaluable to me. I find them to have accountability.I also am known to answer my phone 24/7 as I am a life long boater and realize how important these boats are to my insured's. I do in fact have a great many Tollycrafts insured. I had the underwriter's of Premier Marine come to our rendezvous. For 21 years I owned a Tollycraft. I wanted them to see the quality of the boats. On paper they may look older but when you see the love people have for them, you can also see how they are cared for. I know a great deal about Tollycrafts and spent the last 10 days of R.M. Tollefson's life with him. I have a long history with Tollycraft. In the LaConner fire one of my Tollycraft clients lost their boat. It was extremely sad for them. I had a check for the loss within a week. Premier Marine was outstanding! I talked with the CEO and he completely showed the utmost of good faith and responsibility. In fact the check came before my client was emotionally ready to receive it. There are a lot of carriers out there and of all the ones, that is where our boat is insured. That tells you the faith that I have in them. If anyone wants to talk off line and call regarding the policy language I would be glad to help. Mary LaFleur, ALT Insurance Group 360-899-4653

In addition as my phone has not stopped ringing. Other coverage's to ask about are consequential damage, damage caused by vermin and sea life, is the running gear depreciated in a partial loss? Do you have separate limits for Protection and Indemnity and oil spill? Do you have an agreed value policy? Are you allowed to cruise to Alaska and if so how far and is there a portion of the year that you cannot? Lots of questions!

Hi,. Mary,

Glad to hear that your experience with Premier is good- such was not the case with us. I am aware of Premier's current policy, as we keep it on file, just as we have current policies from many other companies on file. It's a great tool to better understand the market.

If you're going to put info out, you'll want to ensure it is correct. We terminated our appointment with Premier after many discussions with Troy- we never lost our appointment. As you were not privy to those conversations, you have nothing factual to say. If you were given info about our confidential relationship with Premier (the same one you enjoy), then we will be having further discussions of a legal nature.

THere is only one way to read a policy- as it stands. It is a legal document that defines the duties and responsibilities of each party privy to said contract. The agent or agency cannot interpret the policy in any other way, unless that agent/agency is ready to deal with an E&O issue. Interpretations, if any are left to the courts and lawyers.

Please note that my comments are that of my opinion, and not an attack on you:

"Respectfully, I cannot agree. ALT Insurance primarily represents Premier Insurance, a company bused in Vancouver, BC, and underwritten by Lloyds of London.

The Premier policy covers you for any “external” cause of loss subject to the exclusions vs. the any other marine insurance insurer that will pay any loss subject to the exclusions. The word “external” in the policy is a major loophole and we’ve seen many claims denied because the insured could not show that the cause was external (originating outside the vessel).

Just because an insurance company writes a large number of a brand of boat doesn't mean too much when the policy is pretty weak."

It is my opinion- if one chooses to write a policy with you, good on you. But, as I've stated for years on the many forums I'm involved in (as a boater and not an advertiser)- the client is strongly advised to read the policy to gain understanding of what it contains, and the agent should be able to explain the policy language so said client can understand it.

I think you may want to check the forum rules and with moderators with regards to your unsubtle advertising in your post...

Sir Bentley said:

.... There are many ways to read policy language.... Mary LaFleur, ALT Insurance Group

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With respect, it should have one meaning only. I`m wondering if you really meant what you said. If policy wording is open to a range of interpretations it should be reviewed by the issuer and amended to make it crystal clear and unambiguous to potential purchasers.
I don`t know about USA but here, imprecise clauses seeking to limit liability are read down when interpreted in Court, against the interest of the party seeking advantage from them.

Bruce
Unfortunately, the imprecise clauses are used to give the insurance company a starting point in the negotiation. A lawsuit against your own insurance company is expensive.

Marty, Sadly I think you are right. Here we have a "duty of utmost good faith"(distinct from the insured`s "duty of disclosure") in insurance. Some insurers were surprised to find it operates both ways.
I`m surprised an insurer would proclaim publicly policy wording can be read "many ways". Assuming it refers to their own policy, anyone buying the policy is clearly on notice of interesting times in the event of a claim.

Not to get into the discussion between agencies taking place or any of the specifics expressed in this thread. Just a few comments from experience.

I am always very concerned with the contract entered into, the precise wording and it's meaning under law.

But I also find various insurers have reputations as to how they respond to claims. Some are far more likely to find a way to deny a claim than others. I know on auto insurance, one insurer that is wonderful to their customer but very difficult for the other party involved. Meanwhile another is better to the other party than they are even to their customer.

As to boat policies, on the whole they have a tremendous amount of exclusions. Now some of the insurers remove many of those exclusions for a price. We ended up with many restrictions removed and the cost of doing so far less than we anticipated. The basic policy doesn't change but many of the qualifiers may. For instance, I see so many people trying to get north of a certain point for all of hurricane season. They forget how many of us live south of that line. And that that requirement can be removed.

I think we all know that a contract is a contract. Until a cause of loss is determined, no one knows what applies. Once a damage survey is done then the cause of loss is established. It will either be a covered loss or the claim will be denied.

I have also seen courts award damages for items that are clearly not covered. I agree with B and B, I have many carriers and some like Premier Marine pay. Others do what they can to cut costs. That is why it is important to be with a carrier with a reputation for paying claims.

Peter, I am new to the forum and actually have heard about it for years from various clients. I just joined yesterday because many of my clients called. I joined to address your comments about my agency and Premier Marine. Now that I have joined I realize that it is very useful as a boater.

I think insurance is a great topic that has many issues that boat owner's need to be aware of. As with carriers, agencies also have very different ways of doing business. There are a lot of choices out there for boat owner's to explore.

Sir Bentley said:

I think we all know that a contract is a contract. Until a cause of loss is determined, no one knows what applies. Once a damage survey is done then the cause of loss is established. It will either be a covered loss or the claim will be denied.

I have also seen courts award damages for items that are clearly not covered. I agree with B and B, I have many carriers and some like Premier Marine pay. Others do what they can to cut costs. That is why it is important to be with a carrier with a reputation for paying claims.

Peter, I am new to the forum and actually have heard about it for years from various clients. I just joined yesterday because many of my clients called. I joined to address your comments about my agency and Premier Marine. Now that I have joined I realize that it is very useful as a boater.

I think insurance is a great topic that has many issues that boat owner's need to be aware of. As with carriers, agencies also have very different ways of doing business. There are a lot of choices out there for boat owner's to explore.

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Which is why there's a lively debate....determining the cause of some losses IS sometimes rocket science and often "shortsightedness" / "cost cutting" on the side of insurance companies, "involvement on a personal not business level" on the side of insured, and the clueless intervention of the legal system all too often really plays a part in antagonism.

You might also review all the forum rules associated with being connected with the Marine Industry for profit so you have no problems...sorry if you already have cleared and know what you need from the owners of the site and moderator influence.