bayliners.

Marin said:

And when you have created a large customer base of relatively inexperienced boaters, many of whom are not that interested in learning navigation, the rules of the road, seamanship, and so on but simply want to "go boating," you get a lot of people out driving your boats who aren't very good at it and who can and do make a lot of mistakes or do stupid things.

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This.

As someone who owned a Bayliner, and previously 2 Catalina sailboats (another entry-level builder with the same market approach), but who has spent a lot of time on other boats, I am comfortable saying that the build and materials quality is on par with most other production boats in their class.

The problem is that the owners of the boats are, as a generalized whole, inexperienced in boat ownership, and many may not perform the necessary maintenance, may make unwise aftermarket modifications, and/or take the boat out in conditions that stretch the operators experience and comfort. Then things break, go wrong, etc -- and that's supposed to be a flaw in the design or build?

I'm sorry but I firmly believe that if you take a Flemming 55 and treat it the same way, it will appear to have substantial issues as well. The difference, IMO, is that the F55 owner will have, at a minimum, the means to maintain the vessel. Even this is often not true with a Bayliner owner.

markpierce said:

All these praises of Bayliners' "great use of space" but where is the photographic evidence? Is it that because they have greater volume than other boats for their length, or what?

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It's not that they have greater volume, obviously, but that hey literally cram everything they can into every inch of space. This can be a problem as much as an asset, but that's what they do.

One example off the top of my head is storage in the head. In my Bayliner we had more than enough storage for bathroom supplies, first aid, and even head treatment. In our trawler, we have a fraction of the room (first aid kit is now under the helm instead, and head treatment is in the ample storage space under the floorboards for example). But my wife still wants to expand the storage in the head on our trawler, and we only need a few more inches in the cabinet (It's currently 4" deep -- she wanted 6", maybe 7") to hold what we really want to put there.

I looked at the back side of the cabinet, and found that it is open to the space below the settee in the salon -- basically empty space in the "engine room". Easy. Next offseason build an extension and cut out the back of the cabinet, and provide 8 or 10" of total space with no impact on any other area. While the Bayliner had zero room for extension (the back of the cabinet was the bulkhead at the helm), they used the space more appropriately at the factory, and prevented us from feeling the need to expand their built in storage.

In my opinoin, Bayliner also makes superior use of the vertical space in a boat than many other builders. In our 28' boat, the area under the setee seat on the port side was the headliner for the berth below. Below that was about a foot (height) of storage, and below that the bilge. Below the settee on my trawler is storage. About 4 feet of it.

My 28' Bayliner cabin cruiser could also be made up to provide sleeping arrangements for 7 full-sized adults not including the flybridge. My 35' Europa trawler, in comparison, can sleep at maximum 5 at a time. Now, make no mistake, I prefer the trawler, but a family with four kids might disagree.

All in my opinon, and worth what you paid for it.

I'll put it this way. I miss my Bayliner 2859. Love my trawler... and am happy to have found it... but I'd loved to have kept my Bayliner if it had only made a small amount of sense.

I've owned three of them now and I never experienced any of the quality issues some claim either.

ksanders said:

Here's photos of my helm and salon. My boat is a 2001 model, and as you indicated it has the lighter colors.

My fridge with the white panel has been replaced with a new unit that has a teak front.

We need to remember when looking at boats, many boats used color choices that were popular when they were made. Remember light green bath tubs?

I agree that many of the color choices of days gone by are not that pleasing to the eye, not just in Bayliners.

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Damn!!!! That looks nice!!!!!!!! And nice job on the pilothouse!!!

I used to work for Bayliner building the 38 motoryachts back in the late 90's. Just so you know, the entire deck, sane as the 32's, is not bonded to the interior wall of the boat. They are just sitting on them. The only attachment points for the deck are the are along the rub rails. Fitment for the decks were done by eyeball/hand by the 3 guys putting the boat together in station one. We would roll in a hull, start putting the guts in. V birth, Galley(me) and the engines. A lot of things were pre assembled and lifted into the hull before the deck was put on. Then when all that was done, we would go get the deck assinged to that hull, lift it over the boat and just "pin" the bow down. Then we would lower the deck onto the hull, take a grade school compass with pencil and scribe a line matching the contours of the ceiling. Then lift the deck back up and using our air powered saber saws start cutting. We would do this repeatedly until the deck fit everywhere. At one time we were pumping out 3 38' Motoryachts per week!
Design wise I thought the boats were very good! Great us of space. Please to the eye in looks, but build quality I that could be better. And ofcourse the price was pretty good. Oh, and I was making $5.05 an hour to build that $160,00.00 boat! That was the starting wage. The highest wage was something like $9.60 per hour. The pay sucked, but I did enjoy building the boats. It was the first job I had using my hands and my brain. Though a lot of stuff was prebuilt to install in the boat, it still had to be custom fitted for final installation.

Well it must have worked just fine as many Bayliners have cruised extensively and I haven't heard of any major structural failure...

Yes of course there may have been some...but I'm sure the word would have spread quickly throughout the marine industry....which it isn't/hasn't.

At one time it seamed as if Bayliners sales philosophy was to sell big boats cheaply to folks that didnt have a clew what a big boat is. It worked pretty good. Norhaven picked it up with a twist, sell big expensive boats to wealthy people that dont have a clew. That worked for awhile, not so much now. I recall "the rally" when it first happened. Fun to read about. I cant imagine most of those folks crossing the Atlantic by themselves so maybe it worked out for them. But, by example, most were wannabe passagemaker types. Hydraulic stabilizers were a HUGE problem for those that had only them. 2 big chase/lead boats loaded with spare parts helped tremendously. Only 1 fatality.

kulas44 said:

At one time it seamed as if Bayliners sales philosophy was to sell big boats cheaply to folks that didnt have a clew what a big boat is. It worked pretty good. Norhaven picked it up with a twist, sell big expensive boats to wealthy people that dont have a clew. That worked for awhile, not so much now. I recall "the rally" when it first happened. Fun to read about. I cant imagine most of those folks crossing the Atlantic by themselves so maybe it worked out for them. But, by example, most were wannabe passagemaker types. Hydraulic stabilizers were a HUGE problem for those that had only them. 2 big chase/lead boats loaded with spare parts helped tremendously. Only 1 fatality.

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A little thread drift here, but couldn't help responding. Some of those participitants in the Atlantic Ralley became hard core world cruisers. Some even circling the globe. I think Nordhavn has put more power boaters to passagemaking than any other brand. You will have to hand it to them. When they circled the globe in the little 40 footer, held the Atlantic Ralley, and delivered the 120 on it's on bottom they put it on the line warts and all. That is gutsy.

Will I ever own a Nordhavn? Probably not. I will probably never do that kind of cruising. However, I do respect the fact that their boats have cruised to every corner of the globe, and they are willing to put their boats on the line.

There are plenty of other world cruisers, but none more numerous that Nordhavn. They have provided both the boats and inspiration to make many world cruisers.

Now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

Pierce said:

I used to work for Bayliner building the 38 motoryachts back in the late 90's. Just so you know, the entire deck, sane as the 32's, is not bonded to the interior wall of the boat. They are just sitting on them. The only attachment points for the deck are the are along the rub rails. Fitment for the decks were done by eyeball/hand by the 3 guys putting the boat together in station one. We would roll in a hull, start putting the guts in. V birth, Galley(me) and the engines. A lot of things were pre assembled and lifted into the hull before the deck was put on. Then when all that was done, we would go get the deck assinged to that hull, lift it over the boat and just "pin" the bow down. Then we would lower the deck onto the hull, take a grade school compass with pencil and scribe a line matching the contours of the ceiling. Then lift the deck back up and using our air powered saber saws start cutting. We would do this repeatedly until the deck fit everywhere. At one time we were pumping out 3 38' Motoryachts per week!
Design wise I thought the boats were very good! Great us of space. Please to the eye in looks, but build quality I that could be better. And ofcourse the price was pretty good. Oh, and I was making $5.05 an hour to build that $160,00.00 boat! That was the starting wage. The highest wage was something like $9.60 per hour. The pay sucked, but I did enjoy building the boats. It was the first job I had using my hands and my brain. Though a lot of stuff was prebuilt to install in the boat, it still had to be custom fitted for final installation.

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Pierce, that is extremely interesting. Can you give us an idea of how the bull/deck joint was secured, and the hull and deck were laid up. Boats without an inner glass lining I think of as furniture built boats. Most furniture built boats have the bulkheads "tabbed" or fully bonded st the sides and tops. That is the way that Moonstruck is constructed. That makes the structure more rigid. It seems to me that the Bayliners had to have superior glass work in the bull and deck as they have held up for years. Many are still great boats.

psneeld said:

Well it must have worked just fine as many Bayliners have cruised extensively and I haven't heard of any major structural failure...

Yes of course there may have been some...but I'm sure the word would have spread quickly throughout the marine industry....which it isn't/hasn't.

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Oh I'm not necessarily saying that that is a bad thing. I'm no nautical engineer. And that method of construction probably isn't specific to Bayliner either. I'm just trying to inform the masses so to speak based on my experiences.

Pierce said:

I used to work for Bayliner building the 38 motoryachts back in the late 90's. Just so you know,.

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1993 was the last year the 38's and 32's were constructed. Just so you know.

Lmao

pilothouse king said:

1993 was the last year the 38's and 32's were constructed. Just so you know.

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Touche'

For the record, my 2003 285 had the deck bolted to the hull every few inches. Some places, they used those fasteners you can push through from one side only, other places nuts and bolts.

I owned a 3288 for six years and have to say, I absolutely loved the hell out of it. I never had any more issues than any other boat I've owned. They do have great layouts. The one "issue" is they do throw a large wake. The engines are far aft and my Kohler 6.5kw genny was right up against the transom, not a huge issue but I did get a few glares here and there. I had pulled all the pinstriping and decals off and 9 out of 10 people who complimented me on the boat had no idea it was a Bayliner. I would still have the 3288 but it was time to go larger as our needs changed. I looked around for a 4588/4788 but they were out of my price range. The Californian fell into my lap at a great price and the Admiral fell in love with the sundeck. The BOC(Bayliners Owners Club) is one of the best owner websites. There was never a problem getting help from the members and they were extremely knowledgeable all about helping out. TF has become very similar and It's my go to, Just wish more Californian owners on here. The 45/55 versions.

pilothouse king said:

1993 was the last year the 38's and 32's were constructed. Just so you know.

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Thanks Blake, I was going to call BS on that one as well!

Some years ago, there was a small Bayliner found floating off the Los Angeles breakwater with a five year old girl sleeping in a bunk. The hull was undamaged but the fly bridge and the kid's family were missing. It was surmised that the family were all up on the window-supported fly bridge when it was hit by a rogue wave and swept away. None of the family were ever found. Is there a difference when a boat is designed by a committee (Bayliner) and not a recognized designer?

OH OH did someone mention Bayliner and Sea Ray in the same sentence??

I have had the pleasure to bring ice cream to some guys who were taking a trip from Seattle to Stocton CA in a 57' (?) Bayliner. It was very nice boat. My only complaint was the inertiors all looked the same in the older models.

That being said, I am not sure about the older boats with the Hino engines. I heard parts are hard to get?

Now the Merdians (Bayliner) MYs are produced right next to Sea Ray and the quality has jumped a few notches, along with the price. When we went to the boat shows we were always amazed when comparing the Meridians and Sea Rays. The Meridians had better floor plans (They were not basement boats) and priced better than the Sea Rays.

Just so you guys know from a guy that has actually owned 6 ocean going Bayliners and has taken all of them apart....

On every bayliner I've owned the deck was through bolted to the hull every few inches.

The hulls are fiberglass. On the 2859 the hull was over 3/4" solid fiberglass. On the 4788 the hull is over an inch, then there's a rigid foam core followed by a interior fiberglass layoup of over 1/2". Unlike some other quite famous boat hull manufacturers, there has not been a documented failure, or delamination of a Bayliner hull.

To the poster that indicated that

"At one time it seamed as if Bayliners sales philosophy was to sell big boats cheaply to folks that didnt have a clew what a big boat is."

does not have any notion of that whatsoever. Seriously??? Bayliner was a company like any other. They built their yachts IN AMERICA thank you just like other boat builders of that era (their competition) such as Uniflite and Tollycraft. They sold them to whomever could pay for them just like any other company.

I would caution to be careful when we come up with generalizations about boat brands here. There are a few of us on TF that know our Bayliners inside and out, so you better know your stuff, and know it well, because we will respond, and as you can see very quickly.

Friend just bought a used Meridian with Cummins'....he could have had anything he wanted coming over from sail.

I liked the Bayliner pilothouse models when I worked at a Marine Max that just acquired a bunch after the big AMF acquisition game in the early 2000's...they were primarily Sea Ray but now were expanding.

Had a co-worker in the captain licensing business with a house over on Kent Is., Md...he had been driving boats since before Noah built the Ark....he loved and thought his Bayliner Pilothouse was the best bang for the buck out there (obviously for the average person's cruising life).

My two cents

If Bayliner has a problem with image it's because boats are not bought for practical reasons. Bayliners are practical boats ( if that's possible). Boats are usually bought because they represent a dream, a image of who we are, or want to be. Not because we are making a rational logical purchase. As said earlier Bayliner has designed their boats around how boats are actually used. Not how we think or dream of using a boat. This weekend at Manderville Island fourth of July celebration there were at least 15 4788/4588 , untold numbers of 39/3288 Bayliners most of them 10-20 years old, in fact there were probably 15 or 20 older models of express cruisers 20 plus years old. There were by far more Bayliners than any other brand. I think part of the bashing of Bayliners is that they for all of their affordability they are actually the boat that should have been bought in the first place. Not the boat they dreamed of that will never cruise the world or run up and down the coast with them at the helm. I have owned two Bayliners, both were great boats, well thought out, not that they didn't have a few flaws. All boats have flaws in their designs, custom boats have custom flaws, production boats work most of them out over time. I think Bayliner bashers are bashing Bayliners because they make more sense, they use space better, run cheaper, and cost less, and some actually look quite attractive. How can that be, did my ego cost me a ton of money or what. That's why they bash Bayliners.

Bayliners are bashed by the uninformed (or elitists)...which in my experience is over 90% of all boaters...just walk around a boat show and talk not only to shoppers..but people standing in booths....downright scary...

The older small Bayliners just like Sea rays and many other manufacturers back in the day used to staple outdoor porch carpeting to exterior plywood and call it a deck.

After a decade or so...lakes and bays were full of small boats with rotten decks...if the name was still on it...many people associated that name with junk boats.

Some manufactures quickly retooled and changed marketing strategy ...but some slower than others...many died and some just were left in the dust for a bit....like Bayliner (maybe never in sales..but surely reputation).

Bayliner Motoryacht division never has had a poor reputation among marine industry professionals that I have been acquainted with.... nor knowledgeable boaters....they may have been near the bottom of the larger boat lines as many would think but never though of being unsafe and and to more than a few a threat to their own line of boats....

An upper level Sea Ray executive and I discussed 2 dollar parts and how they play a role in marketing...and even before Marine Max became Bayliner dealers...that exec said he had nightmares during boatshows due to Bayliner nipping at their heels and threatening to really make Sea Ray sales a huge challenge.

ksanders said:

Like any large manufacturer Bayliner produced a multitude of models, from inexpensive entry level ski boats to the 5788, a large motoryacht by any measure.

Does anybody think less of the Z06 Corvette, or the Surburban, just because Chevy made the Vega? No they don't, and it should be the same with boats.

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Good point had't thought of. Thanks.

Values?
Let me tell ya'll a fact (as told to me by a good friend who was the Bayliner dealer for Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami Dade Counties since 1959) about the value of the products. When Brunswick bought Bayliner, they paid FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.. when they bought Sea Ray they paid Fifty Million.

Kevin (ksanders) wrote;
"Just so you guys know from a guy that has actually owned 6 ocean going Bayliners and has taken all of them apart....".

Wait till FF sees that "ocean going Bayliners" .. Haha I'd love to be a fly on the wall.

As to the rest of your post Kevin a fully agree and it's a shame people feel that way about Bayliners. I've never had any Bayliner experience and as to "committee designed"BL probably had multiple NAs working on the designs so they're not designed by construction workers, welder's or truck drivers. I do see a lot of design features on Bayliners that I like but I'm not a NA either. But I feel bad about you guys taking all that flack. I think there's no basis for 95% of it but then I really don't know.

I worked at Uniflite (hull const. and drafting/engineering) and have been inside other boat plants and most are built basically the same.

psneeld said:

Well it must have worked just fine as many Bayliners have cruised extensively and I haven't heard of any major structural failure...

Yes of course there may have been some...but I'm sure the word would have spread quickly throughout the marine industry....which it isn't/hasn't.

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And you won't- because there hasn't been any major calamities plaguing Bayliner...unless you count the uninformed kooks that speak without thinking.

ksanders said:

Just so you guys know from a guy that has actually owned 6 ocean going Bayliners and has taken all of them apart....

On every bayliner I've owned the deck was through bolted to the hull every few inches.

The hulls are fiberglass. On the 2859 the hull was over 3/4" solid fiberglass. On the 4788 the hull is over an inch, then there's a rigid foam core followed by a interior fiberglass layoup of over 1/2". Unlike some other quite famous boat hull manufacturers, there has not been a documented failure, or delamination of a Bayliner hull.

To the poster that indicated that

"At one time it seamed as if Bayliners sales philosophy was to sell big boats cheaply to folks that didnt have a clew what a big boat is."

does not have any notion of that whatsoever. Seriously??? Bayliner was a company like any other. They built their yachts IN AMERICA thank you just like other boat builders of that era (their competition) such as Uniflite and Tollycraft. They sold them to whomever could pay for them just like any other company.

I would caution to be careful when we come up with generalizations about boat brands here. There are a few of us on TF that know our Bayliners inside and out, so you better know your stuff, and know it well, because we will respond, and as you can see very quickly.

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I've owned 4 (16' Capri, 23' Trophy, 38' MY, 40' Aft Cabin). and enjoyed every one. I had no major problems that are not common to any boat (like pump failures) and operated them up and down the west coast from Ensenada to the Pacific Northwest.

When I was the business Manager for Lake Union Sea Ray, I remember the sales staff bashing the Bayliners from Olympic Boats just down the road.....until Lake Union Sea Ray acquired the Bayliner brand. Suddenly, the Sea Ray sales staff was praising the lowly Bayliner, and has no trouble telling clients that the runabout models of both were made in the same plant in Knoxville.....

It's all about the perception.

For the record, I have no issues with Bayliners. They fit that part of the market better than anyone. They are sea worthy boats, just look at some of Ksanders trips across the Gulf of Alaska!

We shopped and researched a lot of boats and ended up with our 08 490. We felt that the pilothouse Bayliners and Meridians were an exceptional value with great versatility. I too was put off by the Bayliner name but had always been told that the motor yachts were great boats for the money.

I currently own a 340SB, purchased new in 2009. Due to the then prevailing market conditions, I was able to practically "steal" the boat (I dealt directly with the Brunswick rep at a Cabela's boat show during a Mother's Day event that year.)

Anyway, they had a variety of makes/models available and as I wasn't (or so I thought) actually looking to purchase anything at the time (the ex wasn't a boater; now you know why she's the "ex") I was only casually walking about, i.e. not initially looking at the brand names on the sides of each hull. After boarding several of the yachts they had on hand, I was truly amazed at the comparisons I was beginning to make between the Bayliner, the Meridans, and the SeaRays all on the hard in the parking lot. When I boarded the 340SB, it didn't take a minute to realize the parts being used were all the same. Now there was differences in the thickness of the stone countertops and other small non-marine type products. But the power systems, electrical, switches, hardware and the other important stuff was near identical. Did I mention the 340 had Axius installed on the Seacore Bravo III's?

I could go on however the point of the story was that at 60% off the MSRP and with my current (convenient) access to water being a large lake, there really was no ignoring the financial logic of this decision. The 340SB won hands down. (60% off helped me realize really quickly I was in the market for a new boat.)

I've been boating since I was pre-teen. I've heard all of the stories about which manufacturer is "better", etc. From my helm seat it all comes down to intended use. Yes, as post #19 points out very accurately, there was a time when perhaps entry-level folk who purchased 16' Capri's with a motor and trailer combo (I think Bayliner was the first to market a boat/trailer/outboard pkg - remember the Force ne: Chrysler OBs?) often didn't bother learning the proper way to launch, steer a boat, or tie up. However, I continue to see that each and every weekend with the newer (younger?) generation now having mom or dad purchase 70+ mph Baja's and wakeboard boats.

As I rapidly approach retirement and my boating will move back to the salt water and hopefully become a live-aboard, I am back to looking at what fits my purpose. Maybe I can find that jewel of a Hat, Trojan or a Viking or other well-known brand for another song and sail (okay, power) into the sunset as the newer passagemaker and true trawlers are still out of my financial reach . However I have never had a moments doubt or frustration with this 2009 model or the two times I've had to have (minor) warranty work performed by Brunswick. I cannot say that about some of the other manufacturers that I've owned.

:cheers:

pilothouse king said:

1993 was the last year the 38's and 32's were constructed. Just so you know.

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Yes you are absolutely correct!! I meant late 80's. I wirked there from 88 to 90 in Arlington. The 32's, 38's, and 45's were all built in the same place I was working in. My bad.

Moonstruck said:

Pierce, that is extremely interesting. Can you give us an idea of how the bull/deck joint was secured, and the hull and deck were laid up. Boats without an inner glass lining I think of as furniture built boats. Most furniture built boats have the bulkheads "tabbed" or fully bonded st the sides and tops. That is the way that Moonstruck is constructed. That makes the structure more rigid. It seems to me that the Bayliners had to have superior glass work in the bull and deck as they have held up for years. Many are still great boats.

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The bulkheads themselves are glasses into the hull, but the entire deck, at least in the galley area forward, just lays onto top. There is no bonding to the bulkhead. My untrained engineering mind thought, gee I wonder how the torsenal rigidity is? Please forgive my poor spelling.
Apparently they did a good job designing and engineering those boats as I see them all over the place here in Puget Sound.