Semi-displacement and Full Displacement Hulls

Billylll said:

If I could easily do it I would remove the upper helm on my Gulfstar. I may end up doing it once I get the boat back to my home marina in NJ. To me it's wasted space I could use for additional solar panels and antennas. It's one less set of gauges, throttle and engine cables and steering controls to deal with. It would also lower my overall height possibly lowering my CG. I see practically no reason to use the upper helm given the view and comforts I will have at the lower helm.
Bill

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Hmmm. I got to wondering what the Gulfstar 36 would look like with no FB. It's already a pretty nice looking boat, maybe one of the lesser obtrusive FB applications, but she looks nice with a full rack of solar panels. If you amputated the FB, maybe Eric might be interested.

And back to the OP, I would again suggest identifying your personal needs and preferences through time looking at boats, being on them, chartering them. Make a requirements list based on deliverables, that is what you want the boat to do for you. No labels, no brands. Then determine those boats that most nearly match your desires.

Every boat is a compromise. We'd like to be able to cross oceans at 50 knots with a perfectly smooth ride, have fuel usage of under 0.5 gallons per nm., have systems that never break, have the space of a 200 meter yacht and the handling of a 30' boat, with a draft of less than 3' and several decks but collapsible when needing to clear a 15' bridge. Oh and new and all for under $50,000.

Identifying those things that are most important to you is the struggle. We created both wish lists and "can't live without" lists. Then the selection process included a lot of elimination of boats. We ended up with a huge number removed from consideration, a small number still under possible consideration and only 3 or so that truly had us liking them for our purpose.

healhustler said:

Hmmm. I got to wondering what the Gulfstar 36 would look like with no FB. It's already a pretty nice looking boat, maybe one of the lesser obtrusive FB applications, but she looks nice with a full rack of solar panels. If you amputated the FB, maybe Eric might be interested.

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That's exactly how I envisioned the look of a GS 36 Mark II Trawler without the upper deck. Although my aft cabin goes all the way back there is no cockpit that might be a Mark I? Is this a photo-shop or a real converted Gulfstar?
Perfection...
To dream...
Bill

We prefer the flybridge to the lower helm. It is a little more rocky than below but that is usually just a few moments when crossing a current or wake. That's because we are in the delta
















We prefer the flybridge to the lower helm. It's a little more "rocky" than the lower helm but that is usually when hitting a wake or crossing a current. And that's because we are in the delta. When we finish all we have to do and sail under the gate I expect to A: have stabilizers and B: spend a lot more time in the saloon. The one thing I always lusted after in my sailboat days was a pilothouse. A dry, warm pilothouse!

oops

I have no idea how I screwed up that reply.

I got the message. In NJ we get eaten alive by Green heads and flies. The nice days are full of nasty bugs generally...
I think the GS would be more stable without the flybridge weight.
Bill

Hmm! There have been 65 posts, ostensibly responding to the original poster and we haven't seen a single feedback response from him. Maybe we bored him to death.

David

djmarchand said:

Hmm! There have been 65 posts, ostensibly responding to the original poster and we haven't seen a single feedback response from him. Maybe we bored him to death.

David

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Or just confused him to death...

Sounds like he had his heart set on a Grand Banks....

Here are his words...."I am leaning towards the Grand Banks since inter-coastal cruising is the type I will do probably do most, and the ocean crossing capabilities of the Krogen and Norhavn are not needed. I'm just wondering why the vast majority of boats I see in magazines and on the Internet that are up in Alaska or doing the Big U are of the Krogen/Norhavn style. Those are also cruises I would like to consider."

We have great advice that many boats are certainly capable of doing the big "U" from New England to Alaska...and they don't have to be passagemakers...and yet some insist that their ideas of passagemakers are the most reasonable advice.

There's even good advice about stabilization and still some insist that it only really works on some hull forms well.

A flying bridge is fine for watching fireworks. Good thing Ray/Giggitoni has one.

gwkiwi said:

Over the past year of cruising full time we have used our fly bridge less than 1/2 dozen times, the pilothouse as others have mentioned is awesome and with a centrally positioned helm you have great access to anything you need.

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Same here, in 15 years I have used the flying bridge three times while cruising. I do use it almost all the time when docking as I then have 360 degree visibility. Pilot house is just too comfortable, well equipped and centrally located to use the flying bridge underway.

Billylll said:

That's exactly how I envisioned the look of a GS 36 Mark II Trawler without the upper deck. Although my aft cabin goes all the way back there is no cockpit that might be a Mark I? Is this a photo-shop or a real converted Gulfstar?
Perfection...
To dream...
Bill

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Naw. It's a photoshop, but it looks good anyway.

Billylll said:

I know I'm talking about a small time vessel what can I expect with my 36 FD 1976 Gulfstar Mark II in moderate to light seas?
Thanks in advance...
Bill

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Just estimating, but...

I'd say comfortable heading into seas, OK in following seas, rolly in beam seas. But I'd pretty much guess that about any unstabilized boat, no matter the hull shape. or sea state. Matters of degree, maybe...

You'd probably experience the rolly part less from the lower helm.

-Chris

My friends with two helms here in FL use the upper when weather is good to enjoy it, when weather is bad to see better and when in ICW or docking to also see better. They rarely use the lower.


Years ago I chartered a GB42 and found I used the lower when offshore but the upper everywhere else.

I don't need to be sold on the merits of an upper helm. I don't want one. What I'm asking would there be less roll due to having less weight and windage by removing the upper fiberglass?
What is the general consensus on the looks of the boat without the upper helm? I confirmed the picture photo shopped is a Mark I not a Mark II. The Mark II has no cockpit area only a full width and length aft cabin.

Bill

Yes, you would have less windage and weight aloft. Enough to make a significant difference is the question. The flybridge is generally a thin fiberglass enclosure that doesn't weigh very much and the windage works both ways. Personally, I think trawlers look good with or without the flybridge.

Billylll said:

What I'm asking would there be less roll due to having less weight and windage by removing the upper fiberglass?
Bill

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Very little effect. I've seen comparisons of some boats both ways. There's a lot less weight to the extra glass than you might think at first on a boat like the Gulfstar. If they were initially designed to handle the upper glass and to be balanced with it, then removing the superstructure isn't going to have a lot of impact. A very little in windage and virtually none in rolling, handling or performance. Note that this doesn't work the other way around because adding one to a boat not designed with one can have all sorts of effect.

Losing the flybridge will affect windage for sure (how much really is determined by windspeeds and what you would normally operate in)...

As far as roll...while it might make it less...again how much is the question as it may only reduce the actual roll a few degrees but may reduce the roll period to the point where it's undesirable.

Plain old roll is not an absolute when it comes to seaworthiness....my boat is a disaster waiting to happen due to windows, cabin structural integrity and downflooding...more or less roll is pretty much meaningless unless she would turn turtle in around 6 footers...much betond that and I think I'll have other issues.

yes less weight up top especially when you add people will make for different roll properties. Importantly you will experience roll less down below than you would up top.

I guess the consensus is if nobody is up top there will be less roll, that makes sense, otherwise there should be very little difference. I like the looks without the bridge but that's just me...
Bill

psneeld said:

Or just confused him to death...

Sounds like he had his heart set on a Grand Banks....

Here are his wordsI'm just wondering why the vast majority of boats I see in magazines and on the Internet that are up in Alaska or doing the Big U are of the Krogen/Norhavn style. Those are also cruises I would like to consider."

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This is the root of this discussion.

I would like to point out that the OP's original comment about the boats in Alaska being FD is absolutely incorrect! Its not the OP that was incorrect, its the information sources he has available that are incorrect.

I am in Alaska and have boated here for a decade and a half now. I'm also in the northern ice free part of Alaska and am home based out of Seward Alaska.

The VAST majority of 30-75' power boats up here are represent the cross section of what I consider TF members. There is a mix of Trawler, yacht and sport fish type boats.

There is ONE actual round chine FD recreational power boat. Its a Nordhavn 46, that the owner just bought last year for use during his pending retirement.

The problem is that if you read Passagemaker, and I do, you can be led to the conclusion that you need a Nordhavn or other FD boat to explore here. Dont get me wrong I love Nordhavns. I really do. A 52 Nordhavn pulled into port last week and almost everybody on the dock drooled.

Then we got back in our TT's, and our Tollys, and our Bayliners and we weno out in the Gulf of Alaska and went fishing.

The same can probably be said for probably every other place known for its big seas. Places like the California coat for example. If you read the internet or magazines you'll come to the conclusion that you need a FD boat. If you go to the local harbors in the area I BET you'll find the same cross sections of TT's, and Tollycrafts, and Bayliners you see here representing the powerboat fleet.

ksanders said:

This is the root of this discussion.

I would like to point out that the OP's original comment about the boats in Alaska being FD is absolutely incorrect! Its not the OP that was incorrect, its the information sources he has available that are incorrect.

I am in Alaska and have boated here for a decade and a half now. I'm also in the northern ice free part of Alaska and am home based out of Seward Alaska.

The VAST majority of 30-75' power boats up here are represent the cross section of what I consider TF members. There is a mix of Trawler, yacht and sport fish type boats.

There is ONE actual round chine FD recreational power boat. Its a Nordhavn 46, that the owner just bought last year for use during his pending retirement.

The problem is that if you read Passagemaker, and I do, you can be led to the conclusion that you need a Nordhavn or other FD boat to explore here. Dont get me wrong I love Nordhavns. I really do. A 52 Nordhavn pulled into port last week and almost everybody on the dock drooled.

Then we got back in our TT's, and our Tollys, and our Bayliners and we weno out in the Gulf of Alaska and went fishing.

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Excellent reminder. Bayliner is one that really doesn't get the credit it deserves. They built very good cruisers before Brunswick decided they needed a name change so they could charge more. People get distorted views wherever they go. Read a magazine devoted to faster boats and you'd think it was all gofast. Passagemaker has a lot of passage makers....lol. Here you see a lot of different type boats for trawler type cruising. Sail forums and you'd think power was evil.

Nordhavn is a great boat but in Alaska you'll see far more Bayliners. You'll see Grand Banks everywhere because they've had such good marketing in the PNW in the past. But there is not one boat that everyone should have. And some is regional. We're from South Florida and not yet ever seen a Delta although lots of Trinity's. Saw my first Northern recently. Of course it's on dry land after a bit of a launching mishap. A lot more tugs in the PNW. When we went to the Chesapeake Kadey's everywhere. Go to the Northeast and suddenly Hinckley and Hunt. NC coast and you'll see Hatteras and more Hatteras.

Ultimately, it's not about the label on the boat or the label people use to describe. It's about finding the right boat for you.

BandB said:

Excellent reminder. Bayliner is one that really doesn't get the credit it deserves. They built very good cruisers before Brunswick decided they needed a name change so they could charge more. People get distorted views wherever they go. Read a magazine devoted to faster boats and you'd think it was all gofast. Passagemaker has a lot of passage makers....lol. Here you see a lot of different type boats for trawler type cruising. Sail forums and you'd think power was evil.

Nordhavn is a great boat but in Alaska you'll see far more Bayliners. You'll see Grand Banks everywhere because they've had such good marketing in the PNW in the past. But there is not one boat that everyone should have. And some is regional. We're from South Florida and not yet ever seen a Delta although lots of Trinity's. Saw my first Northern recently. Of course it's on dry land after a bit of a launching mishap. A lot more tugs in the PNW. When we went to the Chesapeake Kadey's everywhere. Go to the Northeast and suddenly Hinckley and Hunt. NC coast and you'll see Hatteras and more Hatteras.

Ultimately, it's not about the label on the boat or the label people use to describe. It's about finding the right boat for you.

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Cruising happiness along any coastline or set of islands isn't about the boat, its about the captain, and its about not having to adhere to a schedule. Its about not leaving port unless the weather is very nice. This is a concept us "weekend" boaters do not understand because we have schedules.

So, if you are looking for a boat to use in retirement, think ahead. Think about comfort. I keep saying it but think about affordability. If you can buy a for example $250,000 boat and retire with it in your mid 50's, or if you can work another 10 years and buy a million dollar boat which option would make YOU happier? Most of us trade time for money. How much time do you have? How much time do you want to give?

Kevin

Whenever I discuss what is needed for a cruising boat to go to an area I ignore the purely local boats. Their needs are different. What percentage of the cruising boats coming up from the lower 48 states are planing versus full displacement?

Asking what cruising boats are in Alaska is like asking what boats are in Key West, Norfolk and Newfoundland on the East coast.

Getting to Juneau could be almost any boat, getting to Homer takes a bit more...but not a whole lot more boat or much better captain.... and cruising to Attu Island or Nome would take yet another level of boat and or skill in my eyes.

Kevin can blast that if he wants...or hopefully see my point...but I know something about all of those waters from my travels on USCG Cutters and living and pleasure boating out of Kodiak for 2 years...plus the many rescue and fisheries missions I flew up there seeing what it was like on the water 365 days a year.

Just like any water...some people are only comfortable and even capable with certain types of boats while other are perfectly happy and safe circumnavigating in bathtubs.

I think all the trawlers mentioned have their place and each type has probably multiple examples of successful long passages. However if you are talking the big U and we stick to pure sea keeping ability economy and crew comfort and safety the motor sailor or modern ocean crossing sail boat with a good auxiliary and fuel tankage has to be #1. As for speed most long range motor boats run 6-7 knots unless they are large. A good sailboat of equal WL can with wind and motor also average 6-7 K and roll stabilization is built into the design. The basic design of most open ocean rated sail boats is far superior to the typical high freeboard power boats being quoted for the big U transit. Until recently most long range cruising has been done with sailing or sail assisted boats. Beebe kind of helped push a revolution in ocean crossing motor boats. Nevertheless the sail boat is still there and in many ways with modern diesel motors still the ocean jumping champ.

eyschulman said:

I think all the trawlers mentioned have their place and each type has probably multiple examples of successful long passages. However if you are talking the big U and we stick to pure sea keeping ability economy and crew comfort and safety the motor sailor or modern ocean crossing sail boat with a good auxiliary and fuel tankage has to be #1. As for speed most long range motor boats run 6-7 knots unless they are large. A good sailboat of equal WL can with wind and motor also average 6-7 K and roll stabilization is built into the design. The basic design of most open ocean rated sail boats is far superior to the typical high freeboard power boats being quoted for the big U transit. Until recently most long range cruising has been done with sailing or sail assisted boats. Beebe kind of helped push a revolution in ocean crossing motor boats. Nevertheless the sail boat is still there and in many ways with modern diesel motors still the ocean jumping champ.

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Guess we're out of luck since we don't have sails and don't run at 6-7 knots.

As to the Big U, it doesn't require major sea keeping ability as long as one doesn't rush through bad windows. It can be done without crossing any major waters. Not sure how we got from the Big U to ocean jumping.

While I respect your clear preference for sailboats, that's really not the topic of this forum. Also, that preference clouds some of your statements to lead to statements either not true or not relevant such as talking ocean crossing when the subject is the Big U and the statement that most long range boats run 6-7 knots when there are probably more that run above 7 than below. Also, very few sailboats in the class comparable to the trawlers being discussed and with average sailors average 6 to 7 knots on long cruises, especially those following a coastline.

Yes, more sailboats cross the Atlantic than small powerboats. More large powerboats cross than either. But how did sailboats even come into this discussion? Did I miss a shift into a not so parallel universe?

Hello all,

I'm the OP, and am finding all the posts very informative. I couldn't respond sooner because Iinadvertently got suspended when I tried to include my email address in a response to a private post and kept hitting the send button after small corrections.

These posts are anything but boring!

One thing I've decided after reading all the posts is that I'm going to TrawlerFest in Baltimore this Fall. I went in 2011, and ended up buying the Swift Trawler 34. Who knows what will happen now?


Sam

Hey... got a friend with a clean 55' Viking motor yacht for sale here in Avalon Manor, NJ (just shoreside of Avalon)

Been for sale for a couple years and could be had for a decent price....stabilized too!

Beautiful Liveaboard...capable of the Big U...larger motors from the old days (1988 I think) but run slow could be a decent setup.

Grand banks are nice...so are a lot of other boats and this could be had for a fraction of some of those in newer models.

psneeld said:

Hey... got a friend with a clean 55' Viking motor yacht for sale here in Avalon Manor, NJ (just shoreside of Avalon)

Been for sale for a couple years and could be had for a decent price....stabilized too!

Beautiful Liveaboard...capable of the Big U...larger motors from the old days (1988 I think) but run slow could be a decent setup.

Grand banks are nice...so are a lot of other boats and this could be had for a fraction of some of those in newer models.

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Vikings and Hatteras are often overlooked when searching for a boat of this nature. Often they are good options.

The 55 Vikings are very nice boats... Probably worth looking at if that's the size you are looking for...
Bill