Alternative to Varnish

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Cathy and David,
Found some Tung oil in the garage. "Hope's". Says 100% Tung oil. "contains pure 100% Tung oil. It's not "thinned". Contains no petroleum distillates."
It says when working w a large surface or high humidity it can be thinned as much as 50%. Interesting thing is that on the front of the can it says "for interior use". I wonder why they said that. Tung oil is Tung oil.
 
Deks Olje has worked well for 4 years now. It looks good when fresh, gradually loses gloss, needs annual recoat, of 2 coats. Prep to recoat is minimal, no sanding, a rub down with a kitchen scrubber/sponge and water. The hassle is the wood prep to start, initial oil saturation day with #1 oil,followed by 4-5 coats of #2 gloss. After that it`s easy to restore and maintain.
It`s a compromise, not as good as varnish, but it never bubbles, flakes or needs heavy sanding.
The #2 gloss part is not essential, it can be left as an oil finish, I prefer gloss.
 
Gentlemen, have a look at this site. I have used Le Tonk, Allbach linseed oil paint and the linseed oil soap, as well as one of their brushes. It all works as advertised, the varnish is great stuff, the paint is ideal for windows and the soap cleans the brushes. No solvents or nasty chemicals to ruin your brain and it even has a nice aroma. Read the site and then look for the US seller, he's online too.

Le Tonkinios Linseed Varnish
 
Varnish

Here in NZ we have a very high UV content that does a lot of damage to brightwork. Oiling will also go black quite quickly here. There was a product developed here which is a single pack product. I have used this on the boarding platform teak trim - this goes underwater when we are underway so gets a hard life . So far the only failure is where the impacts from the dinghy break the film. Have since done some of the new caprails as well. It has been bought out by alwcraft - google: "waitemata woodies" enter the search "varnish" - there is a link showing what sort of results can be obtained, most of the classic boats on that website are all using this product. Application needs to be read and done carefully - but you can do multiple coats in one day. There are lot of boats here using this and are very happy with the long term results.
 
Varnish

Yes that is what it is known as here - but Alwcraft have it now as Alwood. Some impressive results once you have it on. The price increased once it was sold to alwcraft however. Application is quite easy - sealer coat ( can be pigmented for teak or mahog) then the top coats. Can post some photos if you want - but the previous website has a lot of boats that have this system. My boarding platform has survived well - just a slight loss of gloss on the trim pieces after 2 years . My love of a hard dinghy however is the downfall - it takes a good whack at times that breaks the film - but boy that dinghy is nice to row. All the best Keith
 
I suggest you walk the docks in the height of the summer, look at the boats with the nicest finishes and find out what they use. More than likely it will be a good quality varnish.
Varnish will give you the best appearance and the best protection for your woodwork other than a 2 component urethane when it comes to clear coating. Two-component urethanes should be sprayed on and that's why you don't ever see it except for factory finishes.
When it comes to wood protection and looks, there are no secrets. There are no easy finishes that are worthwhile. If there was, everyone would be doing it, including the manufacturers. When it comes to the hype about how great the old finishes were, all I can say is if the old ways were better we would still be doing it that way.
People will always justify not having to spend over $40 per quart and the time it takes to mask everything off.
A good looking and well protecting finish takes a lot of time if you have a poor surface to start with, which is usually you have when you buy an older boat. You scrub, you sand, you wash down and do it over and over again a few times. Then you patch old holes and finally you spend another day or two masking off and finally you are able to apply varnish at 6 to 8 coats. This process can take a week or longer the first time you do it. The good news is that if you maintain it every year the work becomes less and less.
All you have to do to maintain an existing good finish is to wash down and rinse real good, sand lightly, mask off and apply about another 4 coats of varnish. If the weather is right, you can do 2 coats per day. The masking time will be cut in half of what it took you the first time because you will have discovered faster ways to do it during the first time you did it.
Like I said, walk the docks and ask the owners what they used.
 
It's a big assumption that...
1. everyone cares about "yachtie level" finishes
2. has the time to spend getting there.
3. has the money if not the time to get there
4. as has been stated...some are willing to redo after ever scratch, some are willing to avoid all scratches to the point of only working on their boat and not really using it, and others want a finish that protects with just a dab or two more of oil.
5. some old ways still give the same old protection...may not have the look that's wanted, but the protection is there without the danger of moisture under a breach.
 
Scott,
Do you think a high quality oil based varnish has an inferior look to 2 part or other more modern finishes?
 
I know very little about varnish because I don't ever use it ...due to the work involved.

I am not a fine woodworker and have much better things to do on a boat rather than brightwork...wish I could afford to pay for it because it does look nice and is a badge in some ways...but I have enough to do to save time for using the boat.

Plus the way I use boats...I'd ruin it in one cruise and the whole thing would need to be redone...

So I know very little about anything other than trying to keep something other than gray and keep it from weathering to fast.

As I told someone on the dock the other day....tung oil gets one shot at the title...if it's not going to work, I'll take the teak off and put on either plastic wood, or some other 20 year indestructible material or just make a glass gunnel cap.
 
Tony B said:
Two-component urethanes should be sprayed on and that's why you don't ever see it except for factory finishes.
Click to expand...

Sorry, not true. I have brushed 2 part polys many times in the past. And 2 part polys are brushed on all the time on large yachts. Most all of the yards in the Ft. Lauderdale and Miami area do it, as do any of the marinas that handle large yachts elsewhere. Plus the many independent varnish subcontractors that service large yachts.

Now things like fighting chairs that can be removed from the boat will go to a shop and into a spray booth. But things like rails that obviously can not come off the boat will get brushed.
 
Or I'm thinking...call a shrink wrap manufacturer and see if they can give me gloss on one side and sticky on the other...

Peel, sick, heat, done for a year or two....:D
 
Xsbank,
Peter Culler wrote in his book "Skiffs and Schooners" that people wondered how his white paint jobs looked so white. He said he put pine tar in the paint. Pine tar is usually or always black.

What does your comment "Pine tar" address? That we should use just pine tar? That we should add it as Culler did? Or .......
It's readily available.
 
Lot of folks just shun the teak look and paint it. Reading threads like this make me so happy that deal I had on a GB36 fell apart. I would have been hating that boat about now.
 
CPseudonym said:
Lot of folks just shun the teak look and paint it. ......
Click to expand...

Just before I left Seabrook, Tx., I had 2 marina neighbors on my pier paint some of the teak white. And it was for the most common reason - way too much work every year to maintain the wood.
The varnished wood look is beautiful but for some it is a lot of work. I don't have that much wood so it is not a big deal. Right now it's only about 3 half days a year's work.
 
Tony B said:
Just before I left Seabrook, Tx., I had 2 marina neighbors on my pier paint some of the teak white. And it was for the most common reason - way too much work every year to maintain the wood.
The varnished wood look is beautiful but for some it is a lot of work. I don't have that much wood so it is not a big deal. Right now it's only about 3 half days a year's work.
Click to expand...

You and me both Tony, just enough wood to make her look pretty but not so much as to qualify me as any kind of wood finish expert. Our marina has loads of wood boats in great shape, plenty of eye candy without having to over-indulge myself.
 
"This is "The Real Stuff" 100% Natural: Authentic Pine Tar also referred as Stockholm Tar is a pure, natural wood preservative made in Sweden from natural pine resin. Pine Tar has been used since ancient times for creating a water repellent vapor barrier on wood and rope and for its gentle antiseptic effect. Pine Tar is used for wood preservation on utility and fence poles, cottages, splint roofs, boats et cetera. Pine Tar is a more effective wood preservative and a safer substitute for pressure treated wood. Works well even for preserving wood used underground. Use this recipe to thin Pine Tar with Purified Organic linseed oil to obtain faster penetration and avoid stickiness. Apply warm if possible. Note: do not apply on skin."
 

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You guys should read that website I posted on page 2 if you want natural products that are user friendly. I had great luck with the paints and varnishes I used. I have never used pine tar but there are many colours and you can paint your ropes with it(!).
 

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I've got teak hand rails (top rails), cap rails, side handrails, window frames, FB/house trim and, the big one, three doors. My top-, cap- and hand rails look good and I plan to keep them that way. My window frames are starting to need attention and I'm considering painting them white. My doors are in dire need of attention, but I keep kicking the can down the road, not wanting to start that big project. Odds are that I'll probably do them just before I sell so I won't have to do them again and the buyer gets everything in great shape.

An alternative to varnish? What do you want your boat to look like? Maybe doing nothing is an alternative and oil or staining is another option. I've yet to see anything that looks as good as a quality varnish job on teak. IMO, all the others are lesser choices. I guess it depends on the time (or money) you have and the look you want. If the look is not important and time/money is limited, there are many choices besides varnish. If you want the varnish look without varnish, your choices narrow significantly.
 
The work required to maintain a varnish finish is grossly exaggerated except for the initial cleaning and prepping of a degenerated finish.
Once the original finish had been compromised and then poorly maintained, it is in the stage of decomposition. In order to save your wood from total decomposition, you can either apply a bandage or perform surgery. The bandage would be the many varieties of oils that don't perform like they claim they do and the wood keeps deteriorating and you keep adding more oil throughout the year. Or you could put on a good finish of varnish or 2-component urethane. The real hard work is the preparation. That involves scraping all of the old crap, oxidation and rot off and getting down to good clean wood. Which is what you should be doing even if you were just applying oils. After the prepping, applying varnish is just a matter of masking and painting. When down to bare wood, you will need 6 to 8 coats the first year. After the first year, all it should take is a washing, light sanding and apply the varnish in 4 coats. That's it! that's all there is to it until next year.
If you get a chip or ding, paint on some varnish. Use cheap throw-away brushes for this kind of touch-up. For the real application, you should go to a quality paint store and buy a good varnish brush, probably around $25 to $30 and it will last for many many years.

Varnish is not just for looks - it is for mostly for protection. Again, walk the docks and look at the condition of the wood under varnished boats and compare to the condition of oiled wood.

Nothing good is easy and replacing wood can get costly.

Oh and one more thing for you northerners - Rain and foul weather does NOT deteriorate varnish, only UV does. So, you should probably get away with a re-varnish every other year while us southerners must do it every year.

Wanna hear a joke? This is a direct quote from realmilkpaint.com under their "Our Guarantee" section from their 100% Pure Tung Oil. "Quality is long enjoyed while a cheap price is long endured" This is from the guy selling you 100% pure tung oil for only $45.99 a GALLON. That's pretty cheap for a finish.
 
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Xsbank,
Thanks for the reminder. I looked at the link and then forgot about it. Chris is the head painting lass so I'll show it to her. Sure sounds good to me though but I'm a bit of a pushover.

The've got so many variations of the product a bit of studying is required. I prefer studying to sanding, scraping or burning old varnish. In our rush to embrace polly thisand that and epoxy we tend to forget about the old time tested things that are user friendly.

They talk a lot about penetration of oil and not of adhesion. And one of their products soaks into wood over a long period of time.
 
Traditional varnishes are in fact a form of oil finish. Okay, well oil and resin, or both. It's sort of basic and complicated at the same time. What I think you should take away is the concepts of remaining solids, what's going to be left behind and the notion of curing. If a varnish contains drying oils (such as tung or linseed), along with light spirits to act as solvent. We'll to get right to it, is it not obvious right from the get go that there was something to be gained from not just using the base products directly?

Take even modern formulations of a teak oil, an ingredient list not too far from varnish itself. Often the resin may not be there but the drying oil typically is. Just to show how complicated some of these basics get, if you just use teak oil on exposed wood, if the moisture is right you get black wood when the fungus food turns it to mold and mildew. Yet, this is fundamentally a mixture of many if the same components in a varnish that helps protect from the same outcome. In another bit of irony, take the old monkey see tale that purports that teak is too oily to take a varnish. It's funny to me because I use teak oil as my prep coat on teak getting ready for varnish. Very similar ingredients, yet they act in very different ways based on their proportions and how and when they are incorporated.

The bottom line is this, you have to use all theses components in the right way to get the best outcome. If you try to use nothing but a drying oil, it often does not cure or bond as well, sometimes resulting in a soft finish that is not durable. Use the same thing in a lighter formula and you get penetration, but low solids and the micro organisms just use it for lunch.

I'm not a chemist, but I do understand enough to know there are no shortcuts and plenty of folks looking to separate you from your money. Often, they sell good product, it's just the results they fib on. Modern varnishes have a lot more in the can than just oil, resin and solvent, but the principles are still there. Thin enough to penetrate, enough solids to leave something durable behind and a combination of products that will actually cure into a finish.

If you go down the road of trying to take a shortcut by just using one of the components in the can, figure you are on the learning curve somewhere back before the invention of varnish.
 
In my mind, varnish is an interior finish. Its not meant to protect against rain and sun.
My alternative to exterior varnish is white paint. Top rails, cockpit door, cockpit window frames are all painted.
I have plenty enough interior wood to look after.
 
ghost said:
Traditional varnishes are in fact a form of oil finish. Okay, well oil and resin, or both. It's sort of basic and complicated at the same time. What I think you should take away is the concepts of remaining solids, what's going to be left behind and the notion of curing. If a varnish contains drying oils (such as tung or linseed), along with light spirits to act as solvent. We'll to get right to it, is it not obvious right from the get go that there was something to be gained from not just using the base products directly?

Take even modern formulations of a teak oil, an ingredient list not too far from varnish itself. Often the resin may not be there but the drying oil typically is. Just to show how complicated some of these basics get, if you just use teak oil on exposed wood, if the moisture is right you get black wood when the fungus food turns it to mold and mildew. Yet, this is fundamentally a mixture of many if the same components in a varnish that helps protect from the same outcome. In another bit of irony, take the old monkey see tale that purports that teak is too oily to take a varnish. It's funny to me because I use teak oil as my prep coat on teak getting ready for varnish. Very similar ingredients, yet they act in very different ways based on their proportions and how and when they are incorporated.

The bottom line is this, you have to use all theses components in the right way to get the best outcome. If you try to use nothing but a drying oil, it often does not cure or bond as well, sometimes resulting in a soft finish that is not durable. Use the same thing in a lighter formula and you get penetration, but low solids and the micro organisms just use it for lunch.

I'm not a chemist, but I do understand enough to know there are no shortcuts and plenty of folks looking to separate you from your money. Often, they sell good product, it's just the results they fib on. Modern varnishes have a lot more in the can than just oil, resin and solvent, but the principles are still there. Thin enough to penetrate, enough solids to leave something durable behind and a combination of products that will actually cure into a finish.

If you go down the road of trying to take a shortcut by just using one of the components in the can, figure you are on the learning curve somewhere back before the invention of varnish.[/QUOTE

1. Best outcome is totally subjective...

2. If applying only part of a more complete system...it's not a shortcut...it's just a lesser part of a complete system. Like many things in life...like buying a less expensive product that you may have to replace sooner...but in the long run it's more cost effective....I see the option of how easy you want to make brightwork as an option...not a shortcut.
Click to expand...
 
Ghost,
There's a post to see through the smoke. And I was about to ask that question. If most all other clear (and not) oil finishes including colored paint has a solvent that I think is usually referred to as a vehicle or solvents how come all of a sudden I see a group of finishes that just throws out one of the main ingredients of oil based paint as we know it? It seems all the paint I've ever bought contained a lot of something I really didn't need.

But as the original poster said 100% tung oil works just great but most tung oil isn't pure or contains solvents. Well that makes it paint. And I suspect it will turn black just like my linseed oil did. But probably not as fast because my LO was raw linseed oil. I was in Alaska then and re-oiled every 45 days or so and there was only traces of black around some fasteners. The raw LO worked well (a tad sticky when fresh) in Alaska as I was using it.

I just coated/finished the wood on my utility trailer. I used an oil that I mixed from various sources and products. It was boiled linseed oil, Dalys Seafin teak oil, kerosene and turpentine. All equal parts except less turpentine. Where I slobbered it on the metal parts most of it was dry but some was a little tacky. I was surprised it dried at all and all the oil on the wood was totally dry in 24hrs.
I had to replace two panels of plywood and the rest was weathering. Interestingly the old weathered wood soaked up the oil like a sponge. I used 2.5 gallons of oil on this trailer. The pics were before I oiled the trailer.

Ghost, what is the solvent/vehicle actually for. I had thought previously the solvent was the drying agent but apparently not. And most paint is not applied to porous surfaces so it's not needed for penetration.
 

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Many Boat

........I just coated/finished the wood on my utility trailer. I used an oil that I mixed from various sources and products. Ghost, what is the solvent/vehicle actually for. I had thought previously the solvent was the drying agent but apparently not......[/QUOTE]

The vehicle is a binder or adhesive of sorts that makes the solids together.
The solvent is usually a diluter that makes things flow better. When the finish cures, the solvent is all gone. As for your mixture, there is a lot more to chemistry than just throwing stuff in a vat and stirring. There are things called catalysts that are sometimes needed to make two chemicals bind together. The catalyst can sometimes be heat, electricity or an additional chemical that make s the others chemicals work together but when the finished product is done, the catalyst is left behind or not included in the final mix.

This is why 2 different brands of paint will look alike chemically, as to what it's made of but one is far superior to the other. That's because the superior one goes through more and better processes to make the stuff of what it is. As a matter of fact, sometime when you just mix stuff together and it cures (at least you think it does) it may actually separate the chemicals and the finish will look a little cloudy or 'different' over time and the final product will not last long. Woodworkers are famous for this quirk and swear it works when it fact it does not.
There is more to chemistry than meets the eye.
 
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Thanks Tony,
I'm having trouble getting around "makes the solids together" But I'm working on it. Is the vehicle and solvent the same thing? Actually not I've run out of time this morning. I feel the need to put it all together. Your post was very helpful.
 
manyboats said:
... Is the vehicle and solvent the same thing? .....
Click to expand...

The vehicle, is also called a binder, is what makes all the little solids stick together. In varnish, the little solids would be something like little plastic beads. Without the binder/vehicle, you would end up with dust when the solvent evaporates rather than a solid finish.
The reality of life is that good chemicals and processes don't come cheap.
That's why cheap stuff like Minwax Spar Varnish is a joke in the southern climates. I have seen people brag about it and when I looked at it, it was all crumbling off. Clear coating is expensive initially, but over time, it becomes worth it because it is also preserving your wood.
The prime purpose of a protective coating is No. 1 - to protect the wood. The next is for aesthetics or looks.

The most economical wood protection is paint. It blocks the sun from hitting the wood. If you don't mind paint, that is the way to go. And even then, the better paints cost more than the cheaper ones.
 
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