Boat wallows in rough water

Our 29'6" Californian seems to do a constant wave roll on every rougher wave that we quarter. It seems to fall into a dip and roll side to side which is uncomfortable for me, and my husband is constantly doing a hard steer back and forth. Not sure if this is just ours or there is a problem or remedy. We have been caught in very rough seas and it is safe, but is it common?

I dont know your boat at all, but a little bit more boat speed may negate this undesirable affect.

How rough are the seas you're talking about , , , greater than 3 foot. . . Are they breaking with white caps? Some sea states, like crazed seas with waves from multiple directions, are just overwhelming. Not a pleasant experience and you just have to work it.

But for my boat I would say your running too close to the trough. Maybe a little more bow into the wave and work the throttle to find a better speed that will push the bow through the wave. Too slow and not enough bow onto the wave and the power of the wave will push the bow around leaving the boat abeam the trough between wave crests and that's a nasty ride!!

Someone else said it already but every boat is different and you need to try different things to find your best ride. Remember the boat is capable of withstanding a lot more of a beating than its occupants.

Yes, every boat has it's sweet spot in heavy seas, and it's ugly spot. Sometimes changing course 20 degrees, or increasing the speed by 2 knots will make a world of difference.

Island Time said:

Our 29'6" Californian seems to do a constant wave roll on every rougher wave that we quarter. It seems to fall into a dip and roll side to side which is uncomfortable for me, and my husband is constantly doing a hard steer back and forth. Not sure if this is just ours or there is a problem or remedy. We have been caught in very rough seas and it is safe, but is it common?

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Do you have a picture of the boat out of the water? Also which engine is in it? I think the 30 Californians had a single screw unlike the 34 models.
Bill

Island Time said:

Our 29'6" Californian seems to do a constant wave roll on every rougher wave that we quarter. It seems to fall into a dip and roll side to side which is uncomfortable for me, and my husband is constantly doing a hard steer back and forth. Not sure if this is just ours or there is a problem or remedy. We have been caught in very rough seas and it is safe, but is it common?

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Not sure what your boating background is.....

but yes I would say it's common.

A lot of people think by getting into larger, heavier boats that they will provide a magic carpet ride that just isn't true.

Anything bigger than 2 feet and just the right wavelength (like a passing motoryacht wake) taken abeam or on the corner will rock the crap out of many "trawler like", motor cruisers ...probably most boats under 50 feet or so. Add another foot or two to the wave and make it the right length...and then they will rock too.

My ex, an old Mainship 34 would wallow as descibed above. It wasn't until I repowered with a significantly larger engine that gave me enough speed to rid that trait.
Originally it would cruise at 9 + knots, but I needed to get to about 10.5 in those conditions to get rid of the wallowing trait.
My buddy, with an identical boat would cruise right next to me at 8 knots, I would be wallowing, he would not be...because he was towing an 11 ft Whaler. I believe it acted as a sea anchor and kept him going straight.

jleonard said:

My ex, an old Mainship 34 would wallow as descibed above. It wasn't until I repowered with a significantly larger engine that gave me enough speed to rid that trait.
Originally it would cruise at 9 + knots, but I needed to get to about 10.5 in those conditions to get rid of the wallowing trait.
My buddy, with an identical boat would cruise right next to me at 8 knots, I would be wallowing, he would not be...because he was towing an 11 ft Whaler. I believe it acted as a sea anchor and kept him going straight.

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Good point...towing definitely helped with the yaw portion and possibly the additional prop torque to overcome the tow helped with the roll portion.

Powering up helps a lot except for fuel consumption....

I have read where people enlarge the swim platform and this has helped? Since my boat's a full displacement hull adding additional power won't really increase speed it'll just bury the bow.
Bill

psneeld said:

Powering up helps a lot except for fuel consumption....

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Actually, it made the boat MUCH more efficient. At the old crsuing speed I used less fuel and at the new higher cruise speed I used the same.
In other words higher mpg.

jleonard said:

Actually, it made the boat MUCH more efficient. At the old crsuing speed I used less fuel and at the new higher cruise speed I used the same.
In other words higher mpg.

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I meant the boat towing...unless he got into a more efficient range...whih is certainly possible....towing usually knocks bit off.

psneeld said:

Not sure what your boating background is.....

but yes I would say it's common.

A lot of people think by getting into larger, heavier boats that they will provide a magic carpet ride that just isn't true.

Anything bigger than 2 feet and just the right wavelength (like a passing motoryacht wake) taken abeam or on the corner will rock the crap out of many "trawler like", motor cruisers ...probably most boats under 50 feet or so. Add another foot or two to the wave and make it the right length...and then they will rock too.

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Ditto.

At the recent Trawler Fest in Anacortes, the owner/builder of a 65 Bruce Roberts steel trawler who elected not to put stabilizers in said that in crossing Rosario Strait in a beam sea he was worried about capsizing due to excessive roll. While his concerns are probably overblown, he did have quite a lot of experience, so perhaps it was just testimony to the fact that all boats of most any size that lack a mast to dampen roll, or stabilizers to reduce it will roll like the dickens in certain conditions. If your vessel is unhappy in a beam sea, and most boats are, then try to avoid them. I know that sounds simplistic, but if you read the books written by Eric and Margaret Hiscock, who sailed the world for 50 years, they claim they never saw winds greater than 35 knots during the whole time. They did it by not crossing oceans except at the optimum time to make the calmest passage possible.

Delfin said:

Ditto.

At the recent Trawler Fest in Anacortes, the owner/builder of a 65 Bruce Roberts steel trawler who elected not to put stabilizers in said that in crossing Rosario Strait in a beam sea he was worried about capsizing due to excessive roll. While his concerns are probably overblown, he did have quite a lot of experience, so perhaps it was just testimony to the fact that all boats of most any size that lack a mast to dampen roll, or stabilizers to reduce it will roll like the dickens in certain conditions. If your vessel is unhappy in a beam sea, and most boats are, then try to avoid them. I know that sounds simplistic, but if you read the books written by Eric and Margaret Hiscock, who sailed the world for 50 years, they claim they never saw winds greater than 35 knots during the whole time. They did it by not crossing oceans except at the optimum time to make the calmest passage possible.

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When I sat on a few discussion panels with Bruce Kessler back in the late 90's...he used to say the same...even after a circumnavigation...he still really never saw monster rough water in all his travels.

Even aircraft carriers will roll at some point...the smaller the boat the smaller the wave it takes.....simple as that.

Delfin said:

Ditto.

At the recent Trawler Fest in Anacortes, the owner/builder of a 65 Bruce Roberts steel trawler who elected not to put stabilizers in said that in crossing Rosario Strait in a beam sea he was worried about capsizing due to excessive roll. .

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I've seen several Bruce Roberts designs that were/are difficult resells without stabilizers. Yesterday when rounding Cape Caution I did the on/off test of our Active stabilizers, boy what a difference with roll reduced from 25 to 30 degrees to 5 to 10.

A primary reason for Nordhavn's sales and comfort success is active stabilizers. How much of a difference are they on your vessel Delfin?

"Necessity is the mother of invention" I think is an old, wise quote.

My friend's 55 Viking Motor Yacht has 4 active fins and the regular captain who used to run it back and forth from Jersey to Myrtle Beach didn't want to make the last 15 miles a few years back because the fins were inop and there was a following sea predicted for several days.

I got the job of moving it the last 15 as I was the only captain that would run the boat up the NJ intracoastal.

It was a good deal for me as we became good friends and now I have a great place to stop (Little River, SC) every year to/from Florida with friends to share it with.

Moral of the story is...most boats benefit greatly from some sort of stabilization over the original design.

Our 36' Nova sundeck can be "roly poly" in a beam sea, so we just alter course to avoid that condition. Unfortunately, during a predicted log contest, altering course is not an option, so we just grin and bear it.

Island Time said:

Our 29'6" Californian seems to do a constant wave roll on every rougher wave that we quarter. It seems to fall into a dip and roll side to side which is uncomfortable for me, and my husband is constantly doing a hard steer back and forth. Not sure if this is just ours or there is a problem or remedy. We have been caught in very rough seas and it is safe, but is it common?

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It's very common with trawlers. Heading bow into a wake is the best way to reduce the roll. Remember, the early morning hours in the PNW are your friend.

Actively steering while anticipating waves often helps, counter-acting the force of stern quartering waves. Significant rudder adjustment must be done quickly and at the first indication that a roll is about to start.

sunchaser said:

I've seen several Bruce Roberts designs that were/are difficult resells without stabilizers. Yesterday when rounding Cape Caution I did the on/off test of our Active stabilizers, boy what a difference with roll reduced from 25 to 30 degrees to 5 to 10.

A primary reason for Nordhavn's sales and comfort success is active stabilizers. How much of a difference are they on your vessel Delfin?

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The fins definitely make a difference, but I am kind of surprised it isn't more dramatic than it is. I installed the ABT fins directly in line with the mini bilge keels on this class of Romsdal, and I think they are about optimally situated. When I turn them off just to check we increase roll from 5 degrees to 15 (depending on where the seas are coming from), but coming from the sailboat world that still seems very modest. I am quite sure that over time in blue water, the difference would be far more important, but Delfin draws over 7 feet, and has a mast, albeit a short one, so we have some dampening already built in.

Cape Caution? You're a ways up there Tom. Wish we were buddy boating. How's the fishing?

Island Time,
Perhaps you're boat has become too heavy over time as different owners make up grades and install more equipment. And I suspect this is more often the case than not. And of course if one starts w a fully equipped boat and twin engines it may be overloaded from the beginning. Your boat at less than 30' probably dosn't have twins but from what I remember of them the design seems to think it's a bigger boat. Could be a candidate for extra weight.

Even people aren't so graceful w lots of extra weight.

Next time you haul out you may want to ask the travelift operator how much weight his scales are showing. When hauling I usually try to have my fuel, water and holding tanks low. As a popular boat numbers of boat weights should be easy to find. Just a stroll at YW would be a start.

Also in quartering seas (that you mention) a small rudder could make your boat act and feel like she's wallowing as the word "wallow" implies a lack of control.

manyboats said:

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Also in quartering seas (that you mention) a small rudder could make your boat act and feel like she's wallowing as the word "wallow" implies a lack of control.

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"Barn door" rudders are a boater's friend.

Our rudder does seem fairly small compared to other boats we have seen. Yes, it does feel like a bit of a lack of control when it does the roll back and forth. I have read that you can add to the rudder size but I would hate to upset a balance that is probably there.

I think Eric and Mark have a good point. When you're "in the wallow", a big rudder can keep your boat pointed in a direction instead of that 3-5 degree or so movement port and starboard that not only keeps you in the wallow, but the roll of your boat from the turning only serves to amplify the experience. Next time you're in one, watch your compass while you're holding on. A big rudder can and steady forward movement can resist a lot of directional change.

I spent a lot of time trying to climb out of the wallows in my old Bayliner Express Cruiser. Miserable feeling.

I have a 34 Californian with twin 85hp Perkins, so I am 'speed-challenged'. In a beam sea, it's very rolly, but in a following sea, the wallow sets in. Unfortunately, I don't have the speed to outrun the overtaking waves. The square stern seems to aggravate the condition. As the boat rolls to port, the bow wants to swing to stbd, then as the boat rolls back to stbd, the bow wants to swing to port. I might be misreading the causes, but I can attest that it's a handful at times.

As mentioned by others here, staying on the heading and anticipating the boat's response helps greatly. Sometimes I feel like a bigger set of rudders would give me better yaw responsiveness, but no rudder will eliminate a boat's tendency to roll.

Sometimes you have to operate like a sailboat to get a safe angle of attack on the waves. It increases the distance traveled but the ride is better, and the boat is safer.
Recently I ended up about 9km offshore by taking a safe wave approach in worse than expected conditions, then "tacked" in towards Broken Bay which I was aiming, normally I`d have been 2km max off the land. Even so, we cracked a windscreen due to the conditions, ?flexing.

We feel that the rudder is a bit small for sure. We are adding a bit this year and think it will make a big difference. As for weight, the boat isn't really heavy, and doesn't sit low in the water. With what we have seen this boat do in rougher water has made us trust it a lot! I suppose that in all the years we have learned a lot too. I wouldn't trade it for another after what we HAVE been through with it, also love the comfort.

I did get a picture on if you go into Island Time hopefully you can see it. We have learned lots in all the years and are very happy with the boat now.

Think about this in terms of the physics.
The higher the inertia the slower the motion. If it’s slowed enough it becomes out of synch with the wave train. If in synch the roll will amplify over time. So 5lbs 65’ up at the top of a mast will damp motion more than 100lb in the bilge. Changing direction changes the seen effective period so can damp harmonics. Other effect is lateral plane. The more and deeper the wetted surface is the more it will be effected by waves. Are you floating on the water or in it. So displacement per foot of length matters. Size matters for multiple reasons. Greater displacement more inertia, possibility of harmonics decreased among others.

SD and planing hulls can beat the physics as regards chop. By moving faster and being on top of the chop it affects you less. But with waves of significant height you slide down the wave front to the extent you are parallel to the front. Of interest in survival conditions post mortems of tragedies in races or rallies light, center boarders with board up were most likely to survive without damage because of this ability to slide and remain at 90 degrees to the water surface of a large wave.

However comfort from stabilization has no effect on AVS and seaworthiness in extreme conditions.

Gyros work by increasing inertia. Fins, Magnus and fish by creating a force opposite to the direction of roll. But to some extent by changing your speed and direction you can change the forces operating on your boat. Most boats are longer than wide. Having the chop or wave operating on the longer axis decreases the motion. For most people having motion in three axis is most disconcerting (heave, roll and pitch). Heavier and larger boat maybe slower to to heave but there’s a limit if you don’t want the boat periodically submerged. So for most of us you put up with heave. Pitch depends on the rate of rise(fall) of the bow compared with the stern. You can vary this by the angle of attack and speed. Roll is the one where active stabilization has its impact but again angle of attack can vary this significantly.

As humans due to our biology we are most disconcerted by corkscrewing. Our vestibular systems have two components. Semi circular canals which measure rotational angular acceleration in the three axis. And utricles and saccules which measure relationship to gravity and linear acceleration. This allowed us to swing through trees and now to stay upright bipeds. But for boating they screw us up. The simultaneous motion in multiple axises is more than we can handle even when not seasick we have trouble moving. So anything you can do to knock it down to one axis ( plus some heave) is a good thing. Every boat I’ve ever been on will corkscrew if placed at a bad angle and speed. That angle varies with the boat and the conditions. Definitely worthwhile to vary course and speed to avoid that.

Would suggest reading Allard Coles’ heavy weather sailing. Much of it applies to power as well. His teachings have served me well. Although our boats are usually nothing like a FPB Dashews treatise on the techniques for his designs has great wisdom and explanation of the physics behind it. It’s helped me not need the gyro more than once. Yes experience teaches but sometimes listening to those who have come before you is immensely helpful.

Hippocampus said:

Every boat I’ve ever been on will corkscrew if placed at a bad angle and speed. That angle varies with the boat and the conditions. Definitely worthwhile to vary course and speed to avoid that.

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I've often wondered if a sufficiently fast autopilot with appropriate programming would be capable of stabilizing the corkscrewing motion. It's definitely possible to do for a few minutes at a time by hand (assuming adequate rudder authority), but rather tiring.

I'm not sure an autopilot could sense the beginning of the motion fast enough to completely eliminate it, but it could at least be reduced greatly. You'd likely need a much, much faster moving rudder setup than a typical autopilot though. Probably something like 1 second lock to lock if you wanted enough rudder in soon enough to help.

rslifkin said:

I've often wondered if a sufficiently fast autopilot with appropriate programming would be capable of stabilizing the corkscrewing motion. It's definitely possible to do for a few minutes at a time by hand (assuming adequate rudder authority), but rather tiring.

I'm not sure an autopilot could sense the beginning of the motion fast enough to completely eliminate it, but it could at least be reduced greatly. You'd likely need a much, much faster moving rudder setup than a typical autopilot though. Probably something like 1 second lock to lock if you wanted enough rudder in soon enough to help.

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That would be a hot selling otto. What you said about doing it manually is difficult for most people to sense the beginning and adjust fast.