Heads Up for Those with Boats in Washington State

GFC said:

Sorry, I had to leave this page to eat dinner.

Tom, I haven't read beyond page 8 of the bill. I will try to find time this weekend to finish it and see what other wonderful gems it contains.

If you want to read it for yourself, go to access.wa.gov and do a search on HB 2457.

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Hey Mike,

The State is using this bill as the authority to issue the letter demanding all this information.

FlyWright said:

Guys, just a reminder to avoid the political in this relevant and interesting discussion concerning boating and taxes. If we can avoid politics, religion, guns and anchors, there won't be a need to edit, delete or move the posts.

Thanks for your help in keeping it on track and within bounds.

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Good point and its a great discussion.

BandB said:

Actually what has been happening in Florida is boat deserted at a marina. Marina owner facing huge expense in moving and disposing of it sells it for nearly nothing or even gives it to unsuspecting soul, sometimes by ebay, sometimes Craigslist, sometimes even homeless people. They go to move it, get it to see, it sinks. Now a $500,000 salvage job exists and marina and previous owner got off the hook.

Washington has faced a lot of deserted fishing boats and is spending big money each year to destruct them. Last year three were pulled ashore in Westport, crushed to pieces using track loaders, and put into dumpsters and hauled off.

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Again, the letter to the marinas has absolutly noting to do with deserted or derilict boats. Its all about revenue.

refugio said:

The 65' / 21 year old stuff is for the derelicts. It's to prevent someone selling a derelict to a guy in a bar for $5.

The marina registration is different, but something my yacht club already does along with insurance. It's all on automatic reminders, et cetera.

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This is the incident that is often cited as, "the straw that broke the camels back" as far as the derelict vessel portion of the law. There was another incident which predated this one, an abandoned large wooden tug which was allowed to sink in the shallows of Fidalgo Bay near Anacortes, Wa. and rested there for years.

Derelict vessel catches fire and sinks in Whidbey Island's Penn Cove | Seattle Maritime Injury Blog

Edelweiss said:

This is the incident that is often cited as, "the straw that broke the camels back" as far as the derelict vessel portion of the law.

Derelict vessel catches fire and sinks in Whidbey Island's Penn Cove | Seattle Maritime Injury Blog

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What, if any, was the final remediation of this case?

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Again, the letter to the marinas has absolutly noting to do with deserted or derilict boats. Its all about revenue.

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As I said there are different reasons and we're talking about different items. The insurance issue on over 65' is completely separate from the registration and tax letter. And you're right, that is for revenue and compliance. States require revenue. They have laws. And now they're trying to enforce that law.

CPseudonym said:

What, if any, was the final remediation of this case?

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Seems like the boat owner Rory Westmoreland has a long and troubled past when dealing with Hazmat. This is totally unrelated to the sinking:

Attorney General’s Office files environmental crimes charges against King County man

As far as the sinking, the boat was raised and scrapped. DOE and the State are suing Mr. Westmoreland to recover costs and damages. (below)

Arson cited as cause of Penn Cove ship fire - South Whidbey Record

Edelweiss said:

Seems like the boat owner Rory Westmoreland has a long and troubled past when dealing with Hazmat. This is totally unrelated to the sinking:

Attorney General’s Office files environmental crimes charges against King County man

As far as the sinking, the boat was raised and scrapped. DOE and the State are suing Mr. Westmoreland to recover costs and damages. (below)

Arson cited as cause of Penn Cove ship fire - South Whidbey Record

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And they can file all they want to but doubt they're ever see any money. That's the problem. Generally derelict boats aren't left by people with the money to pay. They problem to start with was they couldn't afford disposing of it properly.

Here is the response I recieved from Recreational Boating Association of Washington:

Hi Thomas:
Thank you for your email. RBAW was quite involved in the 2014 Derelict Vessel bill during this past winter and like most bills, there there were compromises in several areas before the bill became law.

RBAW pushed for and was successful at getting commercial vessels to contribute to the derelict vessel removal fund for the first time ever. Prior to this, the burden for funding derelict vessel removal fund has fallen to the recreational boats only.

On the other hand, we have heard concerns about private rights and the record keeping requirements from many. We are working with the Northwest Marine Trade Association who represents many commercial marinas, and the Department of Revenue to ensure the implementation is reasonable. There also appears to be some direction on the part of commercial marinas to propose changes to the record keeping requirements in the coming session of the Legislature. We will know more about how this all fits together as we get into the fall.

We appreciate your input and please keep RBAW appraised of any and all concerns you may have. Thanks again
- Steve

Steve Greaves
RBAW President
206-371-0486


----- Original Message -----
From: Teseniar,Thomas A
To: sgreaves@portagebaysystems.com ; bob_ranzenbach@yahoo.com ; paul.thorpe@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 12:44 PM
Subject: Moorage Taxes
Good Afternoon All,
I was able to get this letter from the Longview Yacht Club and this is not settling well with its members. Especially the fact the Commodore must now keep records.
As a member RBAW I find this letter very disturbing and seems like I am taxed enough, let along the State now having all my private information and placing burdens on marinas and yacht clubs.
Please see attached
Thomas Teseniar

A "Veteran" whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve, is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check payable to "The United States of America" for an amount of "up to, and including his/her life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you did not do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover" - Mark Twain

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

........... As a member RBAW I find this letter very disturbing and seems like I am taxed enough, let along the State now having all my private information and placing burdens on marinas and yacht clubs ..........

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I'm with you on the burden placed on marinas and yacht clubs. If the state wants this information it should be paying the costs of compiling and submitting it.

As far as the state having all your personal information, I can pretty much guarantee that it has all the personal information on you that it wants or needs and can get any other information it wants on you pretty easily and quickly.

Hi Thomas:
Thanks for your reply. Complex legislation is never a simple trade.

There are many differing interests involved, different groups pushing for their interests, and it would be more correct to say that we won on some aspects of the bill and we lost on other aspects.

I tried to make clear that we continue the effort to improve the law. We are all volunteers. We invite you to help. I expect there will be discussions on the topic thru the summer and fall leading up to the next session. I'd be happy to bring you into the discussions.

Working together, we can try to make improvements.

- Steve

Steve Greaves
206-371-0486
From: Teseniar,Thomas A
Sent: 6/27/2014 8:21 AM
To: Steve Greaves; bob_ranzenbach@yahoo.com; paul.thorpe@comcast.net; Loyd Walker; barbara erickson
Cc: Doug; Charlie; quality.cabinets@outlook.com; Ronald Evans (ronevans61@hotmail.com); ronevans61@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Moorage Taxes
Steve,

Thank you for your response. So am I to understand that RBAW agreed with the State with regards of additional burdens of record keeping by public and private marinas and private docks, in exchange for language regarding commercial vessels?

If this is true, then RBAW has supported a new requirements in the law which place recreational boaters owners, those who own docks and marinas in a very bad position, and the mandate from the state that private information must be gathered and maintained by these individuals. Not a good trade in my book and many who support you from the Columbia River area feel the same way.

Thomas Teseniar

A "Veteran" whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve, is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check payable to "The United States of America" for an amount of "up to, and including his/her life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you did not do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover" - Mark Twain

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

There are a lot of Washingtonians that are crapping their drawers right now. Over half of the boats in a yacht club just up river from me have their boats registered in Oregon.

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This is where a lot of these issues begin and end with me. How many of those Oregon registered boats are owned by Oregon residents? California had a bit of a house cleaning several years back with motor vehicles. Seemed odd how many Oregon and Nevada license plates you would see commuting to work in the middle and coastal areas of California. The state DMV gathered records from Oregon and Nevada that included California mailing addresses and started tracking registered owners down. The out of state plates suddenly started disappearing from daily commuter traffic for some odd reason???

CPseudonym said:

The state DMV gathered records from Oregon and Nevada that included California mailing addresses and started tracking registered owners down. The out of state plates suddenly started disappearing from daily commuter traffic for some odd reason???

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It has become much easier to obtain that information. Now that all the States and Canada have computerized interlinked license data bases, it's very simple. Vehicle/Boat/Aircraft Registration, title and drivers license information can be obtained by authorities in seconds by direct computer inquiry. But it still takes a fraud investigator time to draw all the information together and make a case against a violator. Department of Revenue has a substantial work force who do nothing but track and investigate fraud. A sad state of affairs!!

Ron wrote;
"I'm with you on the burden placed on marinas and yacht clubs"
The marinas won't suffer at all. They will just include it in the next rate hike to tenants.

Just like medicine and other things. Responsible people pay and irresponsible people laugh on their way to the next freebie .. on us.

CPseudonym said:

This is where a lot of these issues begin and end with me. How many of those Oregon registered boats are owned by Oregon residents? California had a bit of a house cleaning several years back with motor vehicles. Seemed odd how many Oregon and Nevada license plates you would see commuting to work in the middle and coastal areas of California. The state DMV gathered records from Oregon and Nevada that included California mailing addresses and started tracking registered owners down. The out of state plates suddenly started disappearing from daily commuter traffic for some odd reason???

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You are right. Some of these folks are taking their boat back to Oregon, thus the WA marinas will be loosing revenue. Problem is OR sometimes follows WA, so I would not be surprised if OR implements a similar policy.

I received a letter from my marina yesterday asking for all the "required" information along with a form to fill out. They included a copy of the original letter from Dept. of Revenue and Licensing outlining what is required.

Oh Joy, more paperwork to fill out....

Boydski said:

I received a letter from my marina yesterday asking for all the "required" information along with a form to fill out. They included a copy of the original letter from Dept. of Revenue and Licensing outlining what is required.

Oh Joy, more paperwork to fill out....

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So what happens if you refuse to fill out the paperwork?

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

So what happens if you refuse to fill out the paperwork?

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I'm not sure, but I'm heading north in the morning, so I'm going to be VERY late with my paperwork.... Darn It!

State tax maximum??? How about, for once giving the little guy a break...just once...at the expense of the big guy... This is nothing for FL to brag about.....kindda like a man that deducted $77,000 for a dancing horse while spouting he paid 13.9% income tax.....BS...I have a bigger % bite than that on $77,000 a year as retired. Of course I am part of the 49% in America that no longer matters, 2 sons, both served, one killed while on active, Marine, me 2x Vietnam....we no longer count, me or my family. Do not lecture about states getting smart by letting fat cats slide.

For those in Washington who are members of RBAW (Recreational Boating Association of Washington) will be holding a special meeting to deal with this issue. The meeting will be Friday, July 18 from 2-3:30 PM at the Seattle Yacht Club. If you want the information, send me a PM with your email address.

Larry M said:

Being a WA State resident for 28 years I can feel your pain but we have no income tax, no oil and some would say, questionable leadership. The sales tax is where the bite is. San Juan County is 8.1% and King County(Seattle) 9.5%.

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Larry actually it sounds great, but then I am from Illinois, income tax, 9.75% sales tax, very high property tax, etc. but clearly no one uses the word "questionalbe" to describe our leadership.

And be thankful you're not in CA where you have the joy of paying the state 1 percent of the boat value every year!

If one reads the post from GFC you can see that this legislation appears to be designed to prevent derelict vessels. As a boating community we need to encourage responsible boat ownership amongst ourselves. If we don't police ourselves, the government will do it for us. We suggest that anyone who who has issues with legislation join BOATUS (Boat Owners Association of the United States) if they are not already a member. They do a wonderful job of representing responsible boat owners.

Thought I would complete this thread.

Well the meeting happened this past Friday. The meeting was specifically about section 501 of the law. This is the reporting part.

The board of Directors for RBAW invited the Washington State Department of Revenue and Department of Compliance. Most everyone that had attended by phone was against section 501 and had nothing to do with derelict vessels. In fact there were marina owners that were just plain angry.

The state folks acknowledged that this was a move to get money into the general fund by requiring marina owners and yacht clubs to create records and placing enforcement on their shoulders. They had a "don't care attitude."

One of the board members stated that from what he could tell most to all of the members that have attended the meeting were against section 501. Another board member stated there were plenty of folks for section 501 such as the Seattle Yacht Club, City of Seattle etc. However he was set straight by the first board member by stating this folks were not due paying members of RBAW. (I am).

A motion was made to neither support 501 nor opposed it. A vote was held and it was 14 in support and 1 vote against. So no action. King County (Seattle) rules again and those like us along the Columbia River are irrelevant and RBAW takes the easy way out. Many of us along the river are now considering if we want to support such an organization.

Meeting Minutes:


RECREATIONAL BOATING ASSOCIATION OF WASHINGTON

The Voice of Northwest Boating

Minutes of the Special Meeting of the Board of Directors

Thursday, 18 July 2014

Commodore Room, Seattle Yacht Club

The 18 July 2014 Special Meeting of the Recreational Boating Association of Washington Board of Directors was convened at 1403 by Steve Greaves, President, followed by an explanation of the purpose of the meeting and a review of the proxies returned to the Secretary. A quorum was present. Bob Ranzenbach and Barbara Erickson were acknowledged for their efforts in setting up the meeting. Self-introductions of attendees and a thank you from Steve to all who were present was given. The following Officers, Directors, Delegates and guests were present or on the conference call. Onsite:

Steve Greaves President RBAW
Bob Ranzenbach 1st Vice President Seattle YC
Paul Thorpe 2nd Vice President Gig Harbor YC
Barbara Erickson Secretary RBAW
Loyd Walker Treasurer Port Orchard YC
Bill Field Director RBAW/Queen City YC
Bernie Hedeen Director RBAW
Doug Levy Lobbyist
Cal Coie Delegate Clover Island YC
Mary Coie Member Clover Island YC
Stan Harris Department of Revenue (DOR)
Beau Perschbacher Department of Revenue (DOR)

In Conference:

Drew Erickson Director Tyee YC
Bob Fisher Director Queen City YC and Navy YC, Everett
Mary Nye Meyers Director Corinthian YC
Bob Wise Director Tyee YC
Ron Evans Longview YC
Ken McAlister Longview YC
Thomas Teseniar Longview YC 2

Proxies received from and given to:
John Sipkens Director, Navy YC Everett to Bill Fields;
David Kutz Director Emeritus, Kingston Cove YC to Secretary;
Donald Howell Director, Tyee YC to Secretary;
Wayne Gilham Director, Gig Harbor YC to Paul Thorpe;
John Dawson Director, Tacoma YC, Carver Cruisers to Bob Ranzenbach;
Gary Ritzman Director, Meydenbauer Bay YC to Secretary;
Robert Murphy Immediate Past President, to Secretary;
Chuck Gay Director, Day Island YC to Secretary;
Gus Decock, Director, Meydenbauer Bay YC to Secretary.

Excused:

Ray DeBuhr, Dolphin YC, Ron Barrow, Navy Yacht Club Everett, Phil Osterli, Poulsbo YC and
Bob Wheeler, Bremerton YC

Topic on hand: Discussion of Section 501 of the 2014 Derelict Vessel law (SSHB 2457) and should the Board develop a policy position concerning Section 501. Steve Greaves began the discussion by setting ground rules. The meeting is a Special Meeting of the RBAW Board. Guests are invited to participate. The Board wants to hear from the membership. The plan is to attempt to hold the meeting to the scheduled 1 hour and 30 minutes.
Doug Levy suggested that the initial discussion be limited to what the law says, what is intended, and how the law is being implemented with discussion of possible future changes to be held until later in the meeting.

Beau Perschbacher, DOR, began with a general description of Section 501 and its implementation. There are three parts to this section: (1) pertains to the collection of certain information about vessels in long term moorage by the moorage provider; (2) pertains to requirements to provide information about registration requirements and tax requirements as part of long term moorage agreements for vessels not registered in the State; and (3) pertains to maintaining of these records by the moorage provider for at least two years, and provides for the records and the facility to be inspected by the State.
Stan Harris, DOR Compliance, described that DOR desires a good working relationship with marinas, and their intent is not to disrupt that relationship. They will be instituting one point of contact for all the written requests in Section 501, although very few requests are anticipated due to manpower shortages.
Longview YC members identified a variety of concerns.

 Privacy concerns about data falling into the wrong hands. DOR responded that they have experience in handling confidential information and the same standards will be applied.

 Concerns about volunteers at yacht clubs becoming “agents for the State” and intrusion on private property. DOR responded that DOR could request an audit of records before Section 501 for businesses in the State. For ease of collection, it was suggested that some of the requested data could be incorporated into the moorage agreement.

Clover Island YC members asked about boat houses. If DOR can walk the docks, do they have authority to inspect inside boathouses? DOR responded they did not. 3

MOTION was made for the RBAW Board not to take a policy position on Section 501. Bob Ranzenbach/Paul Thorpe.
Discussion of the motion included:
 Vessel registrations have declined in the past four years.
 Many moorage owners already collect much of the required information.
 Commercial marina operators may have concerns thus there may be an opportunity to work with Northwest Marine Trade Association to further review Section 501 this coming Fall.

After discussion of the motion the vote was taken. Motion passed: 14 Yes, 1 No.

Stan Harris provided his contact information in the event issues arose with any Section 501 requests --- email: stanh@dor.wa.gov and direct line: 360.704.5816.

Longview YC members thanked the Board for the opportunity to voice their concerns.

The President thanked all attendees for their time and their work on boating issues.

Meeting was adjourned at 1525.
Respectfully submitted,
Barbara J. Erickson Minutes Approved: ____________
Secretary

Dawdler said:

And be thankful you're not in CA where you have the joy of paying the state 1 percent of the boat value every year!

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The tax rate varies by county. For instance, in Solano County the rate is 1.16% and others have rates approaching 1.5%. Also, the county charges annual property taxes at the same rate on the value of the berth rented from the city. ... Annually, the marina asks for a copy of the boat's insurance as well as the boat's documentation/registration.

markpierce said:

The tax rate varies by county. For instance, in Solano County the rate is 1.16% and others have rates approaching 1.5%. Also, the county charges annual property taxes at the same rate on the value of the berth rented from the city. ... Annually, the marina asks for a copy of the boat's insurance as well as the boat's documentation/registration.

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I sure am glad I live in a state with no property taxes on boats.

BandB said:

I sure am glad I live in a state with no property taxes on boats.

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One of the reasons I left the boat on the river and slipped in a marina in Illinois.