Engine Questions

So I'm looking at ads for Californian 34's and I have come up with some questions about engines. Most of the LRCs for sale seem to have either Cat 3208s or Perkins 6-354s. So with respect to those two, here's what I have so far:

-- Turbo vs NA?
-- Cruising speed? Fuel consumption?
-- Parts availability?
-- Weak points? Things to watch for? Potential gotchas?
-- Things to look for when shopping?
-- Ease of maintenance access?

Thoughts/opinions/anecdotes gratefully accepted!
--
Dick

Our boat has 3208TAs at 375hp/ea. They have been reliable, and parts/service availability is excellent. The engines sip fuel at slow speeds, and there is ample power when needed.

OK, here goes; mostly opinion based on some facts:

The Perkins is an older engine than the Cat, but not much older. I presume it is the turbocharged version you are looking at. Parts availability and price, particularly the manicooler may be a problem with the Perkins. But otherwise, a pretty solid engine.

The Cat has more displacement and I presume it is the 210 hp NA model. Rock solid, heavy, will run forever. Parts are still available as hundreds of thousand were built for construction machinery, over the road and marine.

If I got it wrong and you are looking at a turbocharged Cat 3208, they are fine at moderate hp up to about 375. But 425 (which I can't possibly imagine being in a 34' boat) is too much for that engine.

Fuel economy will be the same- about 17 hp per gph at the upper rpms and 15 or so at displacement speed rpms.

All else equal, I would go with the NA Cat.

David

djmarchand said:

and 15 or so at displacement speed rpms.

All else equal, I would go with the NA Cat.

David

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Another thing to consider is how much room the engine/s take up. CATs are great engines. But they're very large as well.

Opu said:

So I'm looking at ads for Californian 34's and I have come up with some questions about engines. Most of the LRCs for sale seem to have either Cat 3208s or Perkins 6-354s. So with respect to those two, here's what I have so far:

-- Turbo vs NA?
-- Cruising speed? Fuel consumption?
-- Parts availability?
-- Weak points? Things to watch for? Potential gotchas?
-- Things to look for when shopping?
-- Ease of maintenance access?

Thoughts/opinions/anecdotes gratefully accepted!
--
Dick

Click to expand...

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You need to determine what you need in a boat. How fast or slow you want to cruise. The Californian 34', 38' and 42' were all semi planing hulls and depending on the engine size could cruise at speeds between 8 and 20+ knots. Most were all twin engine diesels and they all had solid heavy glass hulls, great open water boats. Whichever engine you choose had it's up and down sides. The Perkins and Cat options are all excellent, long lived engines as long as they're maintained. In some cases, exhaust parts, exhaust manifolds and elbows are no longer supported by Perkins and have to be purchased from after market companies. They can be a little pricey, but what isn't in boating.

Sounds like you're interest is in the 34' sedan, they range in engine option from 4 and 6 cylinder Perkins to the V8 Cat. They do have a narrower beam than the 38/42' LRC which are nearly 14' wide. If you're only interested in a 34' sedan, keep in mind it has less beam, smaller engine room, but can also be a faster boat with the same engines.

There are a number of Californian owners on here who own 34' and they can share their experiences with you, from their perspective.
Good Luck
Larry B

Perkins HT6 354. did 20,000hrs before rebuild in a 37' displacement trawler running at 7.5nm/h and 1.2 imperial gallons per hour.

All parts readily available from Trans Atlantic Diesel and almost any farm equipment outlet.

djmarchand said:

OK, here goes; mostly opinion based on some facts:

The Perkins is an older engine than the Cat, but not much older. I presume it is the turbocharged version you are looking at. Parts availability and price, particularly the manicooler may be a problem with the Perkins. But otherwise, a pretty solid engine.

The Cat has more displacement and I presume it is the 210 hp NA model. Rock solid, heavy, will run forever. Parts are still available as hundreds of thousand were built for construction machinery, over the road and marine.

If I got it wrong and you are looking at a turbocharged Cat 3208, they are fine at moderate hp up to about 375. But 425 (which I can't possibly imagine being in a 34' boat) is too much for that engine.

Fuel economy will be the same- about 17 hp per gph at the upper rpms and 15 or so at displacement speed rpms.

All else equal, I would go with the NA Cat.

David

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Somewhat agree about the higher RPM fuel usage- at full song (2800 RPM), my Cats are slurping about 20 GPH each.

Don't agree about the slow speed fuel burn: We idle at 600 RPM, which equates to about 4 knots. At about 1100 RPM, we're in the 7-8 knot speed, and the engines are sipping about 5 gph combined.

200 Perkins heat exchanger is a $6000 Bill. Little high for a wear item.

Mule said:

200 Perkins heat exchanger is a $6000 Bill. Little high for a wear item.

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Perkins don't make heat exchangers. Most are Bowman and several other mfg's will work.

Mule said:

200 Perkins heat exchanger is a $6000 Bill. Little high for a wear item.

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Bowman (Perkins) heat exchanger $350.00

Caterpillar 3208 heat exchanger (core only) $1,853.

The engine I am referring to by Perkins has an aluminum heat exchanger, exhaust manifold. It is my understanding that to replace it is north of 6k. I have a 5.9 Cummins the PO installed because of this. Just what I have heard on the 200hp in Mainship Mk1, 2, 3 from multiple sources.

Perkins-Bowman-TAD = perfect replacement and inexpensive.
Bill

Mule said:

The engine I am referring to by Perkins has an aluminum heat exchanger, exhaust manifold. It is my understanding that to replace it is north of 6k. I have a 5.9 Cummins the PO installed because of this. Just what I have heard on the 200hp in Mainship Mk1, 2, 3 from multiple sources.

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New Perkins heat exchanger (core only) $975.00

It's all about wise shopping.

This is one of the rare cases where it may be wise to shop Canadian prices at farm equipment outlets. Farm equipment in Canada receive a 30% subsidy.

I prefer inline engines because they are narrower and easier to get around than V8s. They have fewer parts to replace such as turbos, risers, etc.

Fuel use at the same speed will probably be the same with either engine.

boatpoker said:

This is one of the rare cases where it may be wise to shop Canadian prices at farm equipment outlets. Farm equipment in Canada receive a 30% subsidy.

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I did not know this. Thanks.

According to the PowerBoat Guide, all Californian hulls are modified V. One of our log racers has a 34 Californian and he always complains about the lack of a decent keel to keep the vessel on track with a beam wind, and not skidding when rounding a buoy.

I avoid aluminum exhaust manifolds and heat exchangers within. I prefer steel or iron for manifolds and heat exchangers not on an engine. Mine is mounted on a bulkhead. It's easy to service and not subject to engine vibration.

I think the only big reason they are on the engine from engine manufacturers and marineizers is to form a self contained package for installation ease in any boat. It simplifies ordering parts too.

My 34 Californian has the Perkins 4.236. It's the 4-cylinder version of the 6.354. I have not had a problem with parts availability or cost. I agree with the previously posts that a narrow engine improves engine access, especially in the 34. Given the choice, I'd pick the inline engine over the V.

My steel Perkins exhaust manifold for my 4.236, shipped from England, cost around $1600. I could have bought a TAD aftermarket for less, but chose to stay OEM on the manifold.

Right now since I only have 2 hours on my Perkins 4-154's I'm going to say I prefer the narrow Perkins. I need to get my boat ready and updated for the rest of the summer, fall and possibly the winter. I'll let you know what I really think about the engines after I get some more time on them. As far as access and working on them I have good access and working on them shouldn't be difficult.
Bill

FlyWright said:

My 34 Californian has the Perkins 4.236. It's the 4-cylinder version of the 6.354. I have not had a problem with parts availability or cost. I agree with the previously posts that a narrow engine improves engine access, especially in the 34. Given the choice, I'd pick the inline engine over the V.

My steel Perkins exhaust manifold for my 4.236, shipped from England, cost around $1600. I could have bought a TAD aftermarket for less, but chose to stay OEM on the manifold.

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Haven't seen the twin Perkins 4s advertised for sale. What kind of speed and mileage do you get with them?

Just a wee bit more background info to stir the pot.
The heat exchangers fitted to Perkins are still manufactured by Bowman engineering, they're definitely not made of aluminium.
For spare marinisation parts contact ejbowman.co.uk and they will put you in touch with a local supplier or ship direct, be sure to give engine number when contacting them.
The Perkins HT6354 were a low profile engine originally designed with a low profile to fit under floor on buses. H stands for Horizontal T obviously for Turbo. The 6354 and the 4236 use many common parts and are regarded as the benchmark of British diesels .
The CAT 3208 is also a beautiful engine and highly regarded for it's rugged reliability.
Internet access and shipping services mean it's much easier to source parts and get quick delivery than say 20 years ago.

Opu said:

Haven't seen the twin Perkins 4s advertised for sale. What kind of speed and mileage do you get with them?

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At 2000 RPM, my average speed with the 4.236s is 7.5 kts and my average fuel burn is a consistent 3 GPH total, 1.5 gph per engine.

These engines are 2800 RPM WOT. At that RPM, the top speed is only 10 Kts.

Irish Rambler said:

Just a wee bit more background info to stir the pot.
The heat exchangers fitted to Perkins are still manufactured by Bowman engineering, they're definitely not made of aluminium.
For spare marinisation parts contact ejbowman.co.uk .

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Interesting . . . . They make the combined cooler for the 6.354 Range 4, and it outwardly appears to be the same. But their header tank models for a 6.354M are nothing like my original setup. Do you suppose they used different marinization for North American Perkins prior to the "range series"?? Not a big deal if they don't since new cores are available from after market suppliers in the US and Canada. Just curious. . . .

There are 2 main types of 6354 engines, the normal vertical and a horizontal which was designed originally for fitting under floor on buses, the engineers realised they could be used to lower the overall height when fitted to boats.
The different designations are T 6354 (turbo) HT 6354 (Horizontal turbo) the header tanks and heat exchangers were different for each series.
All the marinised engines sold by Perkins worldwide used E.J.Bowman heat exchangers, header tanks etc.
Other engines may have been marinised by others and would not be the same.
I don't know if you have the Serck radiator company over there but here in the UK, Ireland they can pressure test and replace cores.

I have a 1979 Californian 34 LRC with the Perkins T6.354 185hp diesels. The pre 1980 version of this engine does not have the mani cooler. They have a simple heat exchanger and the exhaust manifold is separate. Cooling and exhaust parts for these are long lived and are not overly expensive to maintain or replace. I like the in line 6 because it gives me great access for maintenance. With proper maintenance they run a long time. My top end is about 17 knots. I typically cruise at either 8-8.5 knots or just over 10 knots. It seems happy at these two speeds. I estimate I get about 2 nmpg at the lower speed and 1.5 at the higher speed. These are just estimated guesses. I have owned the boat almost two years and have put about 240 hours on her. These are great boats and well built. I would not hesitate to get one with either engine.

Those 6354 and it's smaller sister the 4236 are considered the benchmark of diesels and many can be found in various applications from Hy-Mac diggers to buses and I believe they are still made in Perkins Brazilian factory.