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JDCAVE

JDCAVE

Guru
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Messages
2,902
Location
Canada
Vessel Name
Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Make
Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
It's beginning to be a real problem in the PNW. I'm always hearing someone broadcasting noise that the squelch doesn't solve. Coast guards of both the US (US Coast Guard, Sector Puget Sound) and Canada are always blaring through asking the offending party to check their VHF systems. They seem to be a able to determine the general location of the problem. I wonder if it is because people have the hand-held VHFs on a belt and they are depressing the transmit button somehow?


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
 
Usually a microphone glitch but occasionally someone puts a mike in a bad pace and the transmit button gets depressed.
 
Since we all have simplex radios, it makes no sense to try to transmit to the offending party. When the transmit button is depresses, there's no way to listen to an incoming transmission. The only chance of success is if they have 2 radios tuned to the same frequency at the same time.
 
Al your mostly correct however many radios have a TX time out timer, once the radio times out it should go into receive mode at that point a broadcast can get through to the "open mike" but usually these people are oblivious or it is intentional. It's the intentional abusers that tick me off. We have had a few arrested here but they were for false distress calls. Every transmitter has a signature the FCC has the equipment to find and match offenders. Although it's not an easy task.
Bill
 
Yes, false distress calls are the worst. Many resources are wasted looking for these non-existent persons in need. The new USCG equipment, Rescue 21, will help find and locate some of there perps.

In aviation, we have some cases of "phantom controllers" and pirate radio stations that interfered with air traffic control. Phantom controllers were guys issuing bogus ATC clearances on the freq. Many times, pirate radio stations transmitted at power levels fare exceeding the legal maximums. Other times, interference on the frequency was found to be an industrial site with activities like arc welding that caused interference over a wide range of freq's. I flew airplanes for the FAA specially equipped to identify, track and locate the perps. It was very gratifying to find the offender, especially in deliberate cases.
 
FlyWright said:
Since we all have simplex radios, it makes no sense to try to transmit to the offending party. When the transmit button is depresses, there's no way to listen to an incoming transmission. The only chance of success is if they have 2 radios tuned to the same frequency at the same time.
Click to expand...

Pretty much the case. When the Transmitter is in tx mode the receiver rx is muted even if the radio receiver is set to scan. The only hope is someone close by the offending boat will track them down. If it's in close proximity, walking around with a handheld will sometimes identify the boat. Get the two radios close enough together and a self oscillation (loud squeal) will occur.

FlyWright said:
Other times, interference on the frequency was found to be an industrial site with activities like arc welding that caused interference over a wide range of freq's. I flew airplanes for the FAA specially equipped to identify, track and locate the perps. It was very gratifying to find the offender, especially in deliberate cases.
Click to expand...

Just before I retired, the FCC pushed us all onto digital radios systems. Part of that included reducing the frequency separation in half. Doubled the number of available channels, but created a lot of other problems at radio sites with cross talk, frequency doubling and cancellation, phase distortion, you name it. The new radios weren't really up to the task, even though the manufactures said they were. That's a good part of the reason I retired.
 
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Poor equipment, poor practices - I agree it's a significant problem.

One thing I did was get a SeaTow ARC (Automated Radio Check) installation at our yacht club - the first on the West coast.

http://www.mbycwa.org/radiocheck.aspx

One small step for boating in the PNW.
 
The incidental chatter that is being broadcast indicates that the offending parties are working on deck, which makes me think that it's a handheld device that's responsible.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
 
JDCAVE said:
The incidental chatter that is being broadcast indicates that the offending parties are working on deck, which makes me think that it's a handheld device that's responsible.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
Click to expand...

I think your likely right and with more people with voice activated mics on their handheld this could be a contributing factor.
 
psneeld said:
Usually a microphone glitch but occasionally someone puts a mike in a bad pace and the transmit button gets depressed.
Click to expand...

:eek: That actually happened to me once when I first started boating. The mic swung back against a railing on my center console and keyed the button. A friend we were meeting recognized our voices and told us about it a short while later when we met up.
OOPSY
Needless to say I am very careful about that now.
 
JDCAVE said:
The incidental chatter that is being broadcast indicates that the offending parties are working on deck, which makes me think that it's a handheld device that's responsible.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
Click to expand...

Could be...same reasons just different device....

Also...a lot of commercial boats have radios mounted outside so the crew can use/hear it while working the deck..they may be even more likely to have issues and cause an open mike situation.
 
FlyWright said:
Since we all have simplex radios, it makes no sense to try to transmit to the offending party. When the transmit button is depresses, there's no way to listen to an incoming transmission. ..........
Click to expand...
I wonder why it is so difficult for people to understand that? Are they all that ignorant?

Coast guards of both the US (US Coast Guard, Sector Puget Sound) and Canada are always blaring through asking the offending party to check their VHF systems.
Click to expand...

And the Coast Guard doesn't understand it either? That's pitiful.
 
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Billylll said:
Every transmitter has a signature the FCC has the equipment to find and match offenders. Although it's not an easy task.
Bill
Click to expand...

Bill

Please explain the exact nature of the signature of each transmitter, and the equipment that the FCC has to measure it?

I'm very curious.
 
Anybody remember those RDF's made by Polaris? They had a really ugly dipole antenna but they worked fine. Still see some old boats with these units mounted.
 
I had an RDF with goniometer years ago - before ADF. I thought the antenna looked pretty cool!
 
Billylll said:
............... Every transmitter has a signature the FCC has the equipment to find and match offenders.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that is true but it's certainly possible to manufacture the radios with a signature and the FCC passed on a great opportunity to require VHF transceivers to be licensed and registered.

As it is now, any Tom, Dick or Harry can buy and operate a marine VHF with no identification and anywhere, not just on the water. I've read plenty of stories of hunters, hikers, etc. using the marine handhelds as walkie talkies far from the water.
 
rwidman said:
I don't believe that is true but it's certainly possible to manufacture the radios with a signature and the FCC passed on a great opportunity to require VHF transceivers to be licensed and registered.
Click to expand...

"Every hoax, including MAYDAY radio checks, is subject to prosecution as a Class D felony under Title 14, U.S. Code, Section 85. Criminal penalties authorized for those found guilty of a hoax include a maximum of SIX years in prison and up to a $250,000 fine. Civil penalties of up to $5,000 are permitted. Violators are also liable for costs the Coast Guard incurs as a result of the individual's actions. The Coast Guard and the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) will work closely together, using FCC equipment for identifying the electronic signature of the offending radio. The public's help is welcome in achieving the goal of re- moving hoax calls from the airways."
 
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The Coast Guard system now displays intersecting lines from each tower that received the transmission right on the watchstander's screen. That's assuming more than one tower picked it up. They also have RDF equipment on the boats. In our area the watchstanders don't seem to get all that worked up over open mikes on 16. Not sure why, it's a real safety issue.

Never heard of any "signature" other than RDF. It could be they used the term generically to mean RDF and just listening to the characteristics of the comms.
 
Just a few points...

While the Rescue 21 USCG radio system is a nice upgrade it's far from magc. It, or any other triangulation system is real real hit or miss system for triangulating on an open mic. First of all if there are a bunch of boats in an area...it's not accurate enough to pick out a single boat and if boats are on the move...then what? Maybe a resource will get there in time to pick the boat out of a crowd...maybe not....that's why the USCG usually doesn't dispatch for an open mike as it's not definite enough.

I'm not positive but I don't think the USCG vessels have RDF on them...at best a portable unit that unless they have improved dramatically...are difficult to use at best...and they are only on board if specifically sent out for "locate" mission.

Even if the USCG small boats did have them...it is a tedious process locating a vessel with one if you don't already have a reasonable location...and again very difficult with ore than a few boats and they are on the move.

While I'm sure there is electronic gear that can determine a "signature" of a specific piece of electronics.....it's only good for evidence and not location. It doesn't aide in locating a radio...just proving it was the one transmitting. While important maybe for "false distress" calls...I doubt it has any importance in location of a stuck mike.
 
rwidman said:
I don't believe that is true but it's certainly possible to manufacture the radios with a signature and the FCC passed on a great opportunity to require VHF transceivers to be licensed and registered.

As it is now, any Tom, Dick or Harry can buy and operate a marine VHF with no identification and anywhere, not just on the water. I've read plenty of stories of hunters, hikers, etc. using the marine handhelds as walkie talkies far from the water.
Click to expand...

The equipment is made by Harris Corp, it can only match the offender once they are caught. Yes it's a fact that every transmitter has it's own unique signature not by design.
In the past one needed a license to operate a VHF marine unit just like CB Radio required a license many moons ago.
The equipment is not made to find the offending transmitter that's done by triangulation that's the difficult part depending on the length and duration of the transmissions.
Bill
 
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It's not possible to "triangulate" from a single position. You need two direction finders at different locations and the signal you are trying to locate at the third position. "Triangulation" (three points).

If the FCC had chosen to require all transceivers to broadcast a unique identifier and had required any purchaser of a VHF transceiver to provide his/her name and address, it would have been possible to identify anyone using a marine VHF outside of the law. They did not so it's a free for all.

It's possible to find and prosecute someone broadcasting a false "mayday" but it's not a given. Accidentally transmitting because your microphone button is stuck is not a crime.
 
I never said triangulation was done from a single point Ron.

I thought I made it clear earlier that accidental mike keying is entirely different than issuing false mayday or vessel in need of assistance calls?

We have had 2 people in the Little Egg area charged arrested and both plead guilty for misuse of a VHF marine transmitter, transmission of false distress calls resulting in the commission of a crime.
 
Billylll said:
I never said triangulation was done from a single point Ron.

I thought I made it clear earlier that accidental mike keying is entirely different than issuing false mayday or vessel in need of assistance calls?

We have had 2 people in the Little Egg area charged arrested and both plead guilty for misuse of a VHF marine transmitter, transmission of false distress calls resulting in the commission of a crime.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply that you said either, I was just trying to make it clear to everyone as there seemed to be some confusion.
 
Thanks Ron, in addition some might think Rescue 21 is a single position when in fact it might be a single operating position that uses all the towers in it's network to find a transmission. Probably better than 3 towers at times. More position data and observation of RSSI will give a better estimate of where the transmitter is located.
Bill
 
The problem here in San Diego is the proximity to Mexico as they use VHF radio as a telephone, with no regard to frequency protocol. At times, we have to shut off the radio just to get away from the palaver.
 
psneeld said:
Just a few points...

While the Rescue 21 USCG radio system is a nice upgrade it's far from magc. It, or any other triangulation system is real real hit or miss system for triangulating on an open mic. First of all if there are a bunch of boats in an area...it's not accurate enough to pick out a single boat and if boats are on the move...then what? Maybe a resource will get there in time to pick the boat out of a crowd...maybe not....that's why the USCG usually doesn't dispatch for an open mike as it's not definite enough.

I'm not positive but I don't think the USCG vessels have RDF on them...at best a portable unit that unless they have improved dramatically...are difficult to use at best...and they are only on board if specifically sent out for "locate" mission.

Even if the USCG small boats did have them...it is a tedious process locating a vessel with one if you don't already have a reasonable location...and again very difficult with ore than a few boats and they are on the move.

While I'm sure there is electronic gear that can determine a "signature" of a specific piece of electronics.....it's only good for evidence and not location. It doesn't aide in locating a radio...just proving it was the one transmitting. While important maybe for "false distress" calls...I doubt it has any importance in location of a stuck mike.
Click to expand...

I have an Apelco VHF/ADF that I took off my old boat. Finding an offender is easy as long as the mic is keyed. It points out a relative bearing to the transmitter. Turn your boat until its 000 relative and follow it. When the RB starts changing, either he is moving or you are going past. Even in a fleet, its easy to pick out the boat with a RB changing the same rate as the ADF. I have not looked at the newer CG boats up close but the older large boats used to have them. The problems I found when I actually could find a VHF/ADF were 1- They were not setup correctly and, 2- No one could figure out how it worked because of #1. The sets were ALWAYS turned OFF!!!

Here is a pic of the new Response Boat - Medium and the ADF antenna is right there on top.
http://coastguard.dodlive.mil/files/2012/01/080924-G-7518E-014.jpg
 
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I've used RDF equipment in the USCG and assistance towing business for about 35 years now...and much better stuff than the Apelco/Polaris sets.

Yes it can be easy and it can be frustrating as heck....which is my guess why the USCG doesn't go chasing down too many.

If the scenario remains frozen and there's not many vessels in the search area....OK...maybe easy... but many situations are fluid and a vessel with a keyed mike moving at a fair clip or in the ICW can be nearly impossible to locate.

Especially when there is traffic on the same channel that is stronger and keeps pulling you off your primary target.

The best scenario is when the boat is tied to a dock.
 
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That's easier said than done. Your course might take you over land or shallow areas. Also, false mayday or nuisance calls would usually last only a few seconds.
 
FlyWright said:
Yes, false distress calls are the worst. Many resources are wasted looking for these non-existent persons in need. The new USCG equipment, Rescue 21, will help find and locate some of there perps.

In aviation, we have some cases of "phantom controllers" and pirate radio stations that interfered with air traffic control. Phantom controllers were guys issuing bogus ATC clearances on the freq. Many times, pirate radio stations transmitted at power levels fare exceeding the legal maximums. Other times, interference on the frequency was found to be an industrial site with activities like arc welding that caused interference over a wide range of freq's. I flew airplanes for the FAA specially equipped to identify, track and locate the perps. It was very gratifying to find the offender, especially in deliberate cases.
Click to expand...


I have 18,000 hours and have flown jets all over the world and never encountered a phantom controller. I have been shot at and been illuminated by lasers, but never given bogus instructions by a phantom controller. I have been given bad instructions by real controllers...but that is a whole other subject.
 


b. Deliberate or Intentional RFI ("Phantom Controller"). Phantom controllertype
RFI is defined as unauthorized, deliberate, or intentional transmissions by
an individual directed to aircraft or air traffic controllers,
with the intent of redirecting or giving clearance to an aircraft, or disrupting
in any way the normal flow of air traffic control duties. Due to the differences
in each situation, every deliberate RFI incident will need to be handled
individually. The following personnel/offices shall perform the duties listed
below when a phantom controller incident occurs, and these duties also clarify​
the procedures described in appendix 2:

http://www.wsls.com/story/20851726/former-faa-agent-writes-book-on-roanoke-phantom-controller

In the mid-90s, air traffic controllers at the Roanoke Regional Airport nicknamed a man "the phantom controller," according to Jim Epik, the former FAA special agent who authored a book on his experiences

Epik was one of the agents who helped arrest Eugene Bocook for impersonating an air traffic controller. Court records show Bocook spent more than a decade in federal prison for the crime.
 
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