The pup's first boat trip

We took the new pup for her first boat trip.* She did great.* She did what she seems to do most of the time ... sleep.

I love the backyard Tiki Bar.* Now I want one!

-- Edited by BaltimoreLurker on Sunday 1st of August 2010 12:37:43 PM

She is a cutie!!!!

Baker wrote:She is a cutie!!!!

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Good thing, it's saved her a few times from getting a kick!* Just kidding, she's a sweetheart.* We got her from one of those rescue places that run some sort of an underground railroad taking dogs out of the high-kill shelters in the South, running them up I95 to MD & PA foster homes until they can be adopted.*

I've never owned a dog, always been a cat person (extremely low maintenance!), but I'm being won over.* We think she's part Jack Russell, part Beagle.* I wanted to call her "Jack Beagle" but the wife was having no part of that!

How about Bea Russell????

We have traveled Thousands of miles with our two cats. *They also sleep until the engine stops. *We almost never dock since they try to jump ship out of curiosity ... love to sniff their way down the docks. *Anchoring out is a favorite of ours and the cats can roam the ship since they don't want to swim ..... however they can and have ... not by choice.

Is your boat a 29 Prairie? *We have just purchased one and we fell in love with her. *Formerly sailors with five previous and various types of sail boats. *Now we want little upkeep and to enjoy being out on the water in a heartbeat and some long term cruising as well. *I have not yet been on her underway, my husband has, and I am curious as to her movement through the water in any kind of sea. *Does she roll ? *Any insights would be appreciated? *Donna

Donna, there is a Prairie section on this forum. That might be a better place for that question. And to answer your first question, his is a Marine Trader.

Is your boat a P29? If so, I had one for 6 years and would be able to answer questions you may have about that boat....Overall, an excellent little boat.

Yup, a 34' Marine Trader.

Roll - well, I'll say this; you don't want to be on the fly-bridge in a beam sea or when you get waked by those cruisers & yacht fishers that plow through the water.* I'm beginning to dislike those clowns as much now that I own a powerboat as I did when I was a sailor.* At least in a good breeze the sailboat handled the wakes better.

Thanks for your reply! *Yes she is a P29 named Slo Poke. *We decided not to change her name. *She cruises as fast as our 42 Endeavour CC with the same engine. *She weighed 27,000 pounds and also could roll, tho not as much as I suspect the Prairie will. *Still their are no lines to pull or sails to hoist. *My back cannot take it any more and we wanted to spend the next few years enjoying the water without the struggle.She has many upgrades and it is not often one can buy a boat without more $$ input. *She is in reat shpe with everything except AC and a generator.... we live in SW Florida and that is a necessity in the summer months at anchor. *We have a lovely intracoastal waterway, Lemon Bay with many gunk holes we want to use once again. *So that will be our next purchase. *Thanks for the input, I will look forward to asking more questions and will seek out the Prairie group. *Donna

Donna,We have a 12 yr old Tortoise Shell Calico named Pansy * * *...and she is. She likes to climb over our bunks into the chain locker when it get's rough * .. and that is of course the last place she should be in head seas as it is the 1st place where she can go weightless * * ...ands she dosn't like that at all. She screams (a very vocal cat) her head off untill Chris makes her way fwd to rescue Pansy by taking her aft. When it gets really rough Chris wraps her up in a blanket and holds her. Like I said * *...... Pansy.


Eric Henning

Yoda, our orange/red LaPerm will be 14 this fall and hates the start of the engine. *He gets sick on both ends ... from the stress... so I am always prepared with the clean up "stuff". *Once this routine is complete, he is fine... does not like bouncy seas! *He has traveled about 12,000 miles with us to the Bahamas and back from New England. *I must say that once we are on the boat for a day or so, both cats are OK. *Yoda has fallen into the water twice, once from the boat while at a dock, *chasing birds from *a nearby boat... and hitting the life line trying to get back onboard. *Another time from the bow when we were attempting to "practice" sailing off a mooring... he swims quite well but sounds like a sick seagull screaming. * Both cats are entertaining *... Orion is 5 and at 19 pounds is the "bullyboy" *while Yoda , 7 pounds, is quiet and a Mamma's boy. Orion climbs on anything he can get up to. *When we had a sailboat.. catamaran, he climbed to the boom to sleep while we were at anchor or up on the bimini to play hide and seek. *We have yet to see what happens when we finally get to cruise our 29 Prairie from Baltimore to our home on the West coast of Florida. *Donna

Donna,I wanted to say that to deal w the upchucking issue we don't feed Pansy the morning we leave. She's never upchucked in the boat. She does at home about every week or two. You have a BIG cat. My ex-wife has one that big * *.. Moose.

We've had dogs the whole time we've had the GB. This particular breed, the smallest of the retriever breeds, loves the water and both of them have been fine on the GB. For two years we had two dogs-- the puppy learned from the older one which was kind of neat.

The only time the dogs have not enjoyed either of our boats has been when it's rough. The dog we have now, Albi, usually seeks out the lowest point in the boat with the least movement, which is the aft cabin. He started doing this on his own--- we didn't teach him this. The older dog, RJ (gone now) would get on the main cabin floor and wedge himself between the helm console and the galley cabinet.

Neither dog has ever gotten seasick but they have occasionally---when it's very rough--- looked nervous and uncomfortable. This goes away almost immediately as soon as conditions smooth out.* We have never medicated any of our dogs for seasickness.

It took awhile before the older dog became comfortable with the sound of the engines in both our boats.* The main outboard in the Arima has a pitch at speed neither dog likes.* The ancient FL120s on the GB are pretty loud and vibraty but it didn't take long for the older dog to get used to them. * The younger dog was quite startled by the diesel sound the first time he was on the boat which was right after we got him at 8 weeks old. But he quickly realized that if the sound didn't bother the older RJ there was nothing to worry about, so he ignored it from then on and still does.

Today at seven years old, Albi has this boating thing down pat. RJ has been gone for several years now but Albi has taken over the role of Boat Captain very handily. Underway, he could care less about the boat, boating, or anything else as the first two photos illustrate.

Once we're at our destination he "encourages" us loudly to get his captain's gig launched so he can go ashore to play. The older dog taught him the intricacies of the game "Stick" at an early age and Albi has gone on to excel at it.

I like a lot of larger breeds--- Labradors, Goldens, Portuguese Water Dogs, etc.--- but they are too large for what we do. At an average weight of 45 pounds the NSDTRs have proven perfect for going with us in the floatplane and in both boats, and they're great on car trips as they don't take up much room even in a small car.* They're easy enough to lift from the dinghy and swim step up to the main deck of the GB.* But they're still large enough to handle all the things that come up in boating, like swimming (which they love), jumping between the dock and boat or in and out of the dinghy, and so on.* I've never cared for the really small dogs--- I'd be worried that I'd step on them inadvertently when it's rough and they don't strike me as being as independent in terms of getting around-- dealing with steep ramps, crude docks, getting in and out of dinghies, etc. as dogs in the 30-pounds-plus range.

But regardless of size, having a dog on board greatly enhances the boating experience in my opinion.* We wouldn't venture out without one.* I guess a cat would be okay, too.* My wife and I have had cats in the past (never in boats or planes) but they don't provide the interaction that we get with dogs.* Playing Stick with Albi on a nice beach in the islands is as fun for me as it is for him.

First two shots are Albi's normal watch stations on the boat while underway.* The other photos are Albi as a puppy, learning Stick from RJ, and Albi today.* The last shot was taken by Carey at Friday Harbor.

Sorry for all the photos but you know how it is when you start showing off photos of the "kids"......

PS---* The reddish mats on the console and seats in the Livingston were installed for the dogs.* The Livingston has a "non-skid" surface molded into the inner shell but it's not very non-skid for a dog.* After a few months of RJ slipping and sliding when he got into the dinghy we were afraid he'd eventually hurt himself.* The best thing I could come up with at the time were these mats cut out of a sheet of rubber I found in the plumbing section of a hardware store.* It's glued down with contact cement. We wanted something the dog could dig his nails into and this rubber works great in that respect but it was the WRONG material to use.* I don't know what it was made for but it's not outside whatever it is.* When it's wet the red dye in the rubber comes off on our clothes big time.* So providing your dog with a good, non-skid surface his nails can grip in the dinghy is a great idea, but use a material that's more appropriate for the environment and UV light-- black rubber car mats or something would be better than what I used.



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 7th of August 2010 02:01:54 PM

Marin wrote:
I like a lot of larger breeds--- Labradors, Goldens, Portuguese Water Dogs, etc.--- but they are too large for what we do. At an average weight of 45 pounds the NSDTRs have proven perfect for going with us in the floatplane and in both boats, and they're great on car trips as they don't take up much room even in a small car.*

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Portuguese Water Dogs should be about 45Lb-55Lb.* I know there are larger ones but we have let then get a bit too big in this country.* Our male weighs 47Lb.*The Nova Scotia Duck Troll Retriever is a relatively new breed here in the US.* We don't see many.

A question about the Livingston.* What size do you have?* I looked at them a couple of weeks ago ( there made here in NC now about 100mi from Raleigh)*and I thought I wanted a 10' but it really looked large.* I also see you have a 4hp on it. Is that enought to get it up on a plane?

*

Unfortunately (or fortunately if you live in Nova Scotia) when they declared the Duck Toller to be the official dog of Nova Scotia in the 1940s (I think) they gave it the big unwieldy name.

It's not "troll" by the way, it's "toller." No "r" after the "t." Tolling is a method of bird hunting by which you use an attractor to bring birds closer to you. You can do this by waving a white rag on the end of stick from the blind as ducks or geese fly over. Very often--- and I have no idea why--- they will peel off and come in for a closer look which can bring them within gun range.

The dog was bred to do the same thing. When you see a flock of birds coming that are too far away you throw a stick or ball out from the blind and send the dog after it. This breed has a very bouncy run and when looking for the stick they wag their tails so hard they actually come around and hit the dog in the side. This is a similar motion to the rag waved on the stick. However, unlike the rag on a stick, if you get a bird the dog will then go and retrieve it on land or in the water, same as any other retriever. So it's a kind of 2-in-1 deal.

Prior to declaring the breed the official dog of Nova Scotia the breed had a much nicer name, and I usually tell people this is what Albi is rather than rattle off the long "Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever" name. The original name of the breed--- which as I recall was developed in the late 1800s or early 1900s--- was Little River Duck Dog, Little River being one of the places in Nova Scotia where the breed is said to have originated.

Most owers and breeders just call them "duck tollers" or "tollers." (pronounced like the "toll" in toll-bridge.)

While it's a Canadian breed they have become extremely popular in Scandinavia. Albi's grandfather is in Norway, for example. The breed was recognized by the AKC only a few years ago, a decision many owners and breeders wish hadn't happened as AKC recognition almost always results in a breed--- if it becomes popular--- being damaged physically and mentally. German Shepherds are a good example of the former, full-size collies and Dalmatians as an example of the latter. The AKC puts almost full emphasis on appearance only and long term health and mental agility are rendered almost irrelevant.

Toller breeders are trying hard to keep the breed a working breed in every sense of the word and strongly discourage owners from getting into the "dog show" mentality. On the other hand, they are superb at agility although the toller has an extremely strong sense of independence which makes them very challenging to train in terms of doing what you want them to do instead of what they want to do. They are outstanding retrievers, often bringing in geese that are larger than they are. However they will retrieve them the way they want to retrieve them, which includes following the route out and back that they feel is the best way to go, and they care little for which way their owner wants them to go. So great hunting dogs, terrible field trial dogs.

I don't believe inflatable or RIB dinghies are worth their cost and I don't want a shoreboat that depends on air-filled tubes that can tear, leak, and deteriorate over time. So we chose the Livingston. The nine-foot model was the size recommended for our boat, which has a twelve-foot beam. We went with the 4-hp motor because we want to keep the weight on our 37-year old teak-strip swimstep as low as possible. Four hp will not plane the boat, even with only one person in it. The 9' is rated up to 9 hp I believe. If weight were not an issue, we would have gone with six or eight horsepower.

The Livingston has worked very well for us as a basic shoreboat. Our only real complaint is the lack of freeboard when it's loaded down. Fully loaded, it's not a boat you want to take into rough or even fairly choppy water. The ten-foot model has considerably more freeboard but it's also significantly heavier and was not recommended by Livingston for our application.

If a Livingston is going to be carried on its side in Weaver or Seawise davits it's essential that you get the reinforced-side model for the length you want (I assume they still offer this option--- if they don't, don't get a Livingston if your plan is to carry it vertically on the swimstep).. If you don't get reinforced sides, the side of the boat that's down will gradually begin to bow in and distort. I suppose eventually it might even start to crack. The side reinforcement adds weight to the boat, however.

Were we in the market today for a new dinghy we would not consider the Livingston but instead get a 10' Bullfrog, which is what Carey of this forum has on his custom lobsterboat. Outstanding little craft, in my opinion. It combines all the advantages of a hardshell dinghy--- mainly longevity and toughness---, with the only advantage in my mind of an inflatable or RIB which is good load carrying with good freeboard. We hope to acquire a Bullfrog at some point before we start taking long cruises (so several years away yet) but we will have to tow it as they are too heavy for a swimstep mount and we don't want to put it on the aft cabin top. I don't believe in having a dinghy you have to launch with a crane. I want a dinghy either in the water already or able to be put in the water almost instantly if it's needed in a hurry.

So towing, carrying in Weaver davits/Seawise davits, or hung from permanent stern davits as Carey designed and installed on his boat are the only ways we will consider bringing a dinghy with us. Aft cabin top or boatdeck-carried dinghies are not an option we will even consider in the waters we cruise. It would be a completely different matter if we were blue-water, open-ocean cruisers but I've paid my debt to society in those kinds of waters and have no more desire to repeat the sentence again

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 7th of August 2010 04:42:06 PM

Marin wrote:

"It's not "troll" by the way, it's "toller." No "r" after the "t." Tolling is a method of bird hunting by which you use an attractor to bring birds closer to you. You can do this by waving a white rag on the end of stick from the blind as ducks or geese fly over. Very often--- and I have no idea why--- they will peel off and come in for a closer look which can bring them within gun range."

Of course you are correct and I knew that but just missed typed the Toller part of the name.


"While it's a Canadian breed they have become extremely popular in Scandinavia. Albi's grandfather is in Norway, for example. The breed was recognized by the AKC only a few years ago, a decision many owners and breeders wish hadn't happened as AKC recognition almost always results in a breed--- if it becomes popular--- being damaged physically and mentally. German Shepherds are a good example of the former, full-size collies and Dalmatians as an example of the latter. The AKC puts almost full emphasis on appearance only and long term health and mental agility are rendered almost irrelevant. "

I think there is little chance of Tollers becoming so popular that they will be affected mentally.

Also although I'm at odds with the AKC at times I would like to point out that the AKC doesn't just go out and register breeds.* The breeders have to organize a "Parent Club" and they must provide a Stud book dating back I believe over 20 years and their due diligence is quite difficult.* So it is by no trivial accident that a breed gets into the AKC.

I would like to point out that the dogs that are shown in fact can do what they were breed to do.* I have bred*both Great Pyrenees and Siberian Husky's.* I have had a Pyr that lived to 14 years old on a sheep farm in NH and after earning*his Championship guarded sheep for 10 of those 14 years.* I now have a Siberian that I was a co breeder that not only has his AKC Championship but three years ago ran over 900 miles on a sled team in Alaska.* He has a son who also has his Championship and runs on a team every weekend in Alaska that there is snow on the ground.

I now own a male*PWD that also is an AKC Champion that*just started to*do water work this past year*and just earned his first*water certificate*last month and hopefully will have his first water title by next weekend.* So who ever told you that the AKC dogs can't do what they were bred to do didn't quite know from whence they speak.

Health issues are of great importance to the AKC but as in all things some breeders just can not be controlled.* It's like when you see a GB that some smo owns and he doesn't wash it, doesn't patch the canvas and just leaves the teak hand rails peal.* He is a bad example of a GB owner*but that's not what GB had in mind for an owner.

"If a Livingston is going to be carried on its side in Weaver or Seawise davits it's essential that you get the reinforced-side model for the length you want (I assume they still offer this option--- if they don't, don't get a Livingston if your plan is to carry it vertically on the swimstep).. If you don't get reinforced sides, the side of the boat that's down will gradually begin to bow in and distort. I suppose eventually it might even start to crack. The side reinforcement adds weight to the boat, however."

Yes Livingston does still does*have the reinforcement to both sides and the tunnel*available on it's boats. It adds some weight due to the fiberglass boxes that are put in the sides (about 30#)*and the cost varies from $220 -*$290 (8' & 10').

"So towing, carrying in Weaver davits/Seawise davits, or hung from permanent stern davits as Carey designed and installed on his boat are the only ways we will consider bringing a dinghy with us. "

I will have a look at the Bull Frog as well but what ever I get I'm am going to install a set of Sea Wise Davits.

Thanks as always for your input.

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*

JD,A good pice of wood would probably stiffen the gunwale of the Livingston better than anyFG laminate and if properly sized * * ..lighter. I've seen the Bullfrogs * * *..cute and probably good little boats as Cary should know but what a colossal waste of space * * *..the tubes. And while I'm being critical the Livingston would be a better dinghy if it didn't have the tunnel * * .. and just had a flat bottom. MUCH more carrying capacity and probably more stability. I think said boat exists and is called a Carolina Skiff. Don't know if Carolina makes anything in the 9' range.


Eric Henning


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 7th of August 2010 07:23:20 PM

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 7th of August 2010 07:26:11 PM

nomadwilly wrote:I've seen the Bullfrogs * * *..cute and probably good little boats as Cary should know but what a colossal waste of space * * *..the tubes.

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You may have seen a Bullfrog but apparently you didn't really look at it.* One of its cool features is that the tubes are not round.* They are round on the outside where it counts.* On the inside they are cut straight down iike the inside of any hardshell dinghy, which they can be since they aren't fabric and don't have to hold air under pressure.* So there is a LOT more room inside a Bullfrog than you would have with an inflatable or RIB of the same size, but you still get the high floatation and freeboard of the fabric boats.* Plus there is storage space inside the tubes, something you obviously can't do with an inflatable.

I have no idea why Livingston (and Sorenson) selected the catamaran-style hull.* I suppose at the time they felt it added stability.* These things were designed when dinosaurs roamed the earth so whether they represent a smart design by today's standards I have no idea. * Under power (or oars) they track very well although they are by no means efficient rowing boats.* I know I can stand on the gunwale of our Livingston--- I weigh between 240 and 250 depending on the day--- and the boat does not pick its other side up out of the water.* This is not anything I would ever do deliberately but it's nice to know the boat is that tip-resistant.

And perhaps the lower wetted surface of the catamaran hull lets it go somewhat faster for a given amount of power than if it was just a big, flat sled.

As I said, I think the Livingston would be a near-perfect utility dinghy if it had more freeboard, at least in the model we have.* Larger models do have more.

As to JD's comments on the AKC, of course it's not their direct fault that they've "bred the brains out of collies" and the hips out of German Shepherds.* The breeders did that in their greed for the big bucks they can get by producing a dog that adhere's to the exact letter of the breed standard, all other factors be damned.* I'm sure the AKC, and all the national breed-standard organizations do some good but from where I sit they do much more harm because of the attitudes they foster in the breeders and owners.

If you look at the Border Collies that work for a living in England and Scotland--- and I've been around a lot of them as they worked on various farrms in the UK over the years--- and the Border Collies that are entered in the AKC shows, you would hardly know they are the same breed.* The Border Collie is arguably the smartest domestic dog on the planet.* By which is meant the working ones in the Dales and Lake District and Highlands, etc.* The dog show Border Collies in the US are dumb as a stump from what I've seen.* They do look nice, though.......


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 7th of August 2010 08:40:29 PM

I have to say that the upchuck issue is not from seasickness, but stress and fear. *My Yoda has be diagnosed with IBS and therefore we get both ends. *After the initial session, he calms down and usually sits next to me. *The big cat Orion usually seeks the lowest part of the boat. *On our catamaran, it was under the companionway ladder. *Both cats wear a harness to tie them in when the weather is rough..but that was all with our sailboats. *The new adventure with a trawler will be interesting that is if my husband ever gets back here so we can actually bring Slo Poke home to Florida.

We have had numerous friends who sailed with their dogs and loved it. We like dogs and enjoy the companionship of our friends dogs however we do feel for them when they have to go ashore in foul weather to walk them.
Our cats were adopted because we wanted a cat aboard to catch those critters that can sometimes get aboard. *Orion, the big guy, was the result of a feral siamese cat and *a big stripped daddy. *He is a great hunter on our lanai, treating us with geckos, small snakes, and millipedes. *Both cats are entertaining and affectionate.


On another note, we will be installing AC and a generator on this boat. *We don't wand reverse air*as she is equipped with a heater that runs on propane. *That will be fine up North, but down here we need the AC. *Since we prefer to anchor out, our heat and humidity in the summer requires cooling so we can enjoy gunk holing. The cats too suffer when it is too hot. *Anyway, *does anyone have suggestions for AC, that is reasonable in price, effective in cooling, using as few amps as possible, and be installed by us.? *We have worked on all of our boats Our 42 Endeavour was by far the most complicated as we had to remove the fuel tank from the keel and then install a new custom made tank. *Our current boat isn't large, but does have a lot of glass area in the salon. *The other question regards *a generator. *How does the "suitcase" style compare to one that runs on diesel and is installed in the engine room? *Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. ** Donna

Your dogs were/are beautiful. *Don't you just love the positions they can get in and sleep?

straycat wrote:

*


On another note, we will be installing AC and a generator on this boat. *We don't wand reverse air*as she is equipped with a heater that runs on propane. *That will be fine up North, but down here we need the AC. *Since we prefer to anchor out, our heat and humidity in the summer requires cooling so we can enjoy gunk holing. The cats too suffer when it is too hot. *Anyway, *does anyone have suggestions for AC, that is reasonable in price, effective in cooling, using as few amps as possible, and be installed by us.? *We have worked on all of our boats Our 42 Endeavour was by far the most complicated as we had to remove the fuel tank from the keel and then install a new custom made tank. *Our current boat isn't large, but does have a lot of glass area in the salon. *The other question regards *a generator. *How does the "suitcase" style compare to one that runs on diesel and is installed in the engine room? *Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. **

Donna

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Donna,

Flagship Marine makes several nice self contained*A/C units that are easy for the DYI to install.* I used there unit in a previous boat and was happy with it.* They make the unit with out heat as standard.* They do not use reverse cycle compressors even in their heated unit.* I think their pricing is reasonable.

They also walk you through a multi unit install with one water pump and several A/C units plus how to figure what size unit or units you may need on their site.

http://flagshipmarine.com/

I have no connection with Flagship*other than have used their product and was happy with their service and the quality*they provided.

The issue*with the*the suitcase gen set is that the largest one available*is the 2K Honda that is truly a suitcase and*easily hand carried.* It will not run a 16k BTU AC.* The start up cycle kills the gen.* So you either have to go smaller in A/C or larger in gen-set.* Honda does make a*3k unit but it gets a bit heavy to store and then pick up and use.* It will run 16k BTU.** The other way to go*is a 10k BTU for a smaller part of the boat say just the aft cabin and the smaller 2k gen-set.* Back to the trade offs.

The other thing is that you have to carry a separate fuel supply for these gen-sets as they use regular gas.* So if you have a 4 stroke for your dink it is not that much of a problem but if you have a 2 cycle for the dink it is a third fuel supply to contend with.*

Why not get two proper size A/C's say a 16k for the salon plus the forward V berth*and a 10k for the aft cabin.*Then a 5-8 kw diesel gen-set will run everything?*


-- Edited by JD on Sunday 8th of August 2010 06:03:54 AM

Thanks for the reply! I do agree. *My preference is to have a diesel generator, one less fuel source to deal with. *As to the generator, I'd like to have one installed in the engine room, less noise I believe and one less thing to lug around! *Since we are in the research stage, I am trying to become informed as to our options. *Slo Poke is in Baltimore and although it is warm to hot at this time of the year, I don't feel we will need AC when we start South, maybe the heater by then! *The days will be shorter too so I am anticipating we will be working on the AC/generator during the cooler months at home. *So we have time for the research. *I have never heard of the brand you mentioned, but any suggestion ie worth looking into! *The end result will be two more through hulls.*

Just now, my husband is with his brother, a ships' captain, in New Bedford,MA, waiting to take off in a boat delivery, through the Panama Canal to BaHa and the Sea of Cortez. * *This should be about 30 days. *I believe the last of the boat permits have come in and now it is a wait for the weather left from TS Colin.