Lithium Batteries By Smart

I am considering the new generation Lithium Batteries for my powercat. It seems the safety issues with these have been dealt with properly. Now, the upside is substantial. Any opinions on the new Lithium batteries by Smart?

Some day Lithium will be the way to go. . . . But today is not the day!!

It has amazing potential for solving some of the problems with battery capacity , charge and discharge rates. That said, it is still very new technology in the high capacity large battery field, as well as being prohibitively expensive. Safety issues with the larger lithium batteries have still not been thoroughly explored and eliminated. The result of battery or charger failure can still result in thermal runaway which would be catastrophic in a boat. Most likely resulting in the total loss of your boat. I would stick with conventional batteries for a while yet.

IMOP
Larry B

tenniscaptain said:

I am considering the new generation Lithium Batteries for my powercat. It seems the safety issues with these have been dealt with properly. Now, the upside is substantial. Any opinions on the new Lithium batteries by Smart?

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Even though safety measures are improving: Fire / explosion during charging and too deep dis-charge are still my concern at this point of the game. I currently remain very cautious!

If I lived in a highly populated area the temptation would be great. The thought of getting replacement parts flown in by sea plane to some remote camp made me go old school.

A Brooklin Boat Yard built boat was lost to a fire the other day caused by Lithium batteries. The crew said once they found the source (the battery), nothing they tried to put it out with, including fire extinguishers, worked. Luckily the boat was sailing in company with another boat so the crew were picked up.

dwhatty said:

A Brooklin Boat Yard built boat was lost to a fire the other day caused by Lithium batteries. The crew said once they found the source (the battery), nothing they tried to put it out with, including fire extinguishers, worked. Luckily the boat was sailing in company with another boat so the crew were picked up.

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David - You have story link on that fire? I can't locate report and am interested. TY, Art

Art said:

David - You have story link on that fire? I can't locate report and am interested. TY, Art

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No, I don't Art. I saw the pics on an iPhone of the son of a friend of mine who is VP of the yard and heard the story from them. I emailed the son a week or so ago for a link and/or to send me the pics. Will try again but he is just out of college and chasing a young lady out to the West coast so his mind may be on other things.

dwhatty said:

No, I don't Art. I saw the pics on an iPhone of the son of a friend of mine who is VP of the yard and heard the story from them. I emailed the son a week or so ago for a link and/or to send me the pics. Will try again but he is just out of college and chasing a young lady out to the West coast so his mind may be on other things.

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Was it a sail boat? - I did see couple word blurb and a pict; no mention of fire cause.

I know the underwriter for US Boats asked me if my vessel had or was going to get Lithium batteries. Right now I'm not convinced they are safe enough. I still think they cost to much. Before changing to LIPO's or Lithium batteries better check with your insurance underwriter, I would love to have them because they offer the best AH's per pound of any modern battery but I'll stick with AGM's for now.
Bill

Here's the only article that I found online. No mention of cause of fire.
Equus catches fire, sinks 053014

But just found thread this on Cruisers Forum. The discussion about this particular boat fire starts at post #3695. And particularly see post #3717.

LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks - Page 247 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

And I was in error as to the builder. It was Rockport Marine. Rockport Marine is owned by Taylor and Martha Allen (the brother-in-law and sister of Steve White who own Brooklin Boat Yard). The two yards have traded off building W Class boats for many years so I sometimes get confused about which yard built which boat.

Art:

Here' one more link just sent to me by my friend's son. Same lack of details, but a couple of pics.

Sailboat catches fire, sinks off Little Compton - News, Weather and Classifieds for Southern New England

I'll admit to being tempted to purchase the LIPO4 battery system. When they were first released I was contacted about becoming a dealer in my local area of NJ. However it required me purchasing (2) 360 AH GenaSun systems. It was too much money and too little warranty at the time the warranty was 2 years. For a battery system that costs as much as they do I felt the warranty was lacking. Then there's the entire BMS and charging systems required it got real expensive because these batteries are a system not just cells.
Bill

dwhatty said:

Art:

Here' one more link just sent to me by my friend's son. Same lack of details, but a couple of pics.

Sailboat catches fire, sinks off Little Compton - News, Weather and Classifieds for Southern New England

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TY, David - Yup, that's the one I found. Surprised not more coverage??

Thanks for all the great feedback. I will go with AGM's.

I looked into LIfP04 batteries pretty hot and heavy last year for either my boat or NEV. I decided not to be the beta tester for the technology in my NEV(most attractive option for me) and insurance issues nixed my boat plans.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/electric-feasibility-study-owens-9761.html

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/lithium-ion-batteries-9588.html

One anecdotal fire will put you all off? How many fires happened last winter that had nothing whatsoever to do with lithium batteries? They "claim" the runaway thing has been solved. Remember nickel-cadmium when they came out? Charger technology solved that.

I would have gotten lithiums in a shot if they weren't still so expensive, or, more accurately, if I wasn't so cheap!

Xsbank said:

One anecdotal fire will put you all off? How many fires happened last winter that had nothing whatsoever to do with lithium batteries? They "claim" the runaway thing has been solved. Remember nickel-cadmium when they came out? Charger technology solved that.

I would have gotten lithiums in a shot if they weren't still so expensive, or, more accurately, if I wasn't so cheap!

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IMHO - Better to error on side of caution...

Especially with an EXPLOSIVE FIRE STARTING product known to have problems and still be undergoing safety-refinements-developments.

Especially when its capabilities already have pretty darn good alternatives affordably available with proven track and safety records.

Too much $$$$$$$$$$ - is the other GOOD reason... in this case... for not now!

I believe in not too distant years the safety will be guaranteed and price in line with reality.

And remember the issues Boeing has had with them as well.

Marty.....................

Boeing's Stretched 787 Certified

Boeing's stretched version of the 787 Dreamliner is now certified by the FAA and the European Aviation Safety Agency, Boeing announced this week. The 787-9 adds an extra 20 feet to the fuselage length and has proved popular with customers, Boeing said. Twenty-six operators have ordered 413 of the airplanes, accounting for 40 percent of all 787 orders. The comprehensive type-certification test program required five airplanes and more than 1,500 hours of flight testing, plus ground and laboratory testing, Boeing said. The first copy of the new airplane will be delivered to Air New Zealand later this month.

The extra length enables the 787-9 to carry an additional 40 passengers and adds 300 nm to the range. Boeing has an even longer version, the 787-10, already in the planning stages. An FAA/Boeing team recently completed a design review of the 787, concluding that the aircraft was soundly designed and met its intended safety level. The review was prompted by a lithium battery fire on board a parked 787 in Boston in January 2013.

I developed a philosophy many years ago, primarily related to technology. Unlike many I do not want to ever be on the leading edge of technology. I want to be in the next group. I'm more than willing to let others be the guinea pigs and work out all the bugs. When dealing with IBM years ago, even though we had a tremendous relationship with them, I would never upgrade our mainframe or midframes in their first six months of release of new hardware. Now because the hardware was generally shipped far later than promised, this six months was often 18 months to 2 years after the date for which they were first taking orders.

New engine, new model, new car, new anything. I'll follow and read the initial reports first. Lithium for recreational boat use is not ready for prime time, in my opinion.

Here is a link to some information, by a SELLER of Li-on batteries for off grid systems. Including a link to a cost comparison to AGM 8-D.

Lithium-Ion vs Lead-Acid battery - PowerTech Systems PowerTech Systems

I think, so far, they are great in hand tools but am not ready to try them in a boat till they are well proven in that application

This doesn't bother you?
AGM
Lifespan 500 cycles at 50% DOD
Lithium Battery
1900 cycles at 90% DOD

Not exactly an Apples to Apples comparison
Bill

Billylll said:

This doesn't bother you?
AGM
Lifespan 500 cycles at 50% DOD
Lithium Battery
1900 cycles at 90% DOD

Not exactly an Apples to Apples comparison
Bill

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Bill - But... if the batts torch after 501 or even 1899 cycles - BIG OUCH!!!

500 cycles with safe and way less costly batts = approx 10 years if 50% DOD is averaged once per week. Near 5 years if twice per week. Those are higher than average annual overall use-times for most boaters.

1900 cycles with not yet completely safe and very costly batts = approx 38 years and 19 years at same use-time ratios. Within either time span just imagine how safe those batts could be made, as well as what new type of "Super Batts" may become available?!?! And, owning the same boat for 19 years is a long time; 38 years is basically a lifetime!

I'm sticking with "Batteries + Lamps" East Philidephia built old-school wet batts. Cost me about $600 for full replacement when required. Safe as all-get-out from explosion/fire with terminals kept covered. Last up to ten years as long as water added to keep full, not power-drained too low, and charged correctly to correct charge levels. That = approx $60 per year batt expense! IMHO - Can't Beat It!!

Happy Boat Batt Daze! - Art

I don't believe anyone is questioning the value of Lithium Ion batteries over conventional systems. The issue right now is safety. If a AGM or lead acid battery fails, you buy a new battery. If an LI battery fails you might have to buy a new boat.

Once the price comes down and they prove to be reliable and safe. Everyone will want to jump over to the Lithium side.

PS: Yes Boeing continues to use LI batteries in it's 787 model. But as a stop gap to satisfy the FAA, they also built a very heavy stainless steel vault to contain the LI batteries with a venting system outside the planes fuselage. I don't think many of us are prepared to undertake that project just yet!!

I'm an AGM fan. I have had excellent results with Lifeline and hopefully DEKA Unigy1's that I'm using for my Gulfstar. I think the price of LI's are still cost prohibitive and most warranties don't match the sales numbers (# of cycles in it's lifetime).
I really like the power to weight ratio of LI batteries.
I would be more interested if they gave a warranty that matched their claimed life cycles even if you had to use their BMS which I agree is a must have with LI battery cells.
Bill

The problem I had with the example given is why a 50% discharge for AGM's and only a 90% discharge for LI's? If I only discharged my AGM's to 90% I'd get more cycles than discharging them to 50%.
You don't think their example has the numbers skewed?
Bill

se them in my model airplanes but they are tricky and you have to be carefull when charging them, they can blow up if you over charge them,or if you drop them. AGMS is the way to go in a boat if you can afford them?

"You don't think their example has the numbers skewed?
Bill"
------------------


They're salesmen, trying to sell you their products!!

In the words of British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli. . . . "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics!"

Billylll said:

The problem I had with the example given is why a 50% discharge for AGM's and only a 90% discharge for LI's? If I only discharged my AGM's to 90% I'd get more cycles than discharging them to 50%.
You don't think their example has the numbers skewed?
Bill

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Following of course includes batteries of all types:

Honestly - I feel claims made by manufacturers of any product are too often way off beat regarding what will occur during actual long term use by a person in the general public. The tests performed and stats provided are usually controlled tests under best conditions. Also, every person uses every product in different ways and often under individualized circumstances.

The two items I currently have against Litho batts is the fire/explosion danger and current tall-costs. Otherwise, that battery technology seems great. Solve the fire and cost problems – then – I’m IN!

Lithium batteries can be discharged to 5% before damage but lead-acid is 50%. Those numbers are not skewed, maybe 5% too conservative.

Don't you discharge your cordless drill, cell phone or iPad batteries to "0?" You don't stop at half power. The circuit in the battery cuts off the power at "about" 5% and the device calls it zero.

You do stop using your lead-acid house bank at 50%, right?

There is no downside to lithium now, IMHO, except their high cost. The fire risk is still lower than the risk of fire from a shore power cord or winter heater, both of which thin our ranks every year. Bring the cost down and suddenly we will all be using them.

Billy, I think you are getting it backwards.

Edelweiss, don't you put your batteries in a box? Why do you?

Also, a rhetorical question - how many of you boat owners have lithium batteries in your homes, your pockets, your cars, virtually every part of your lives? How many lithium batteries do you have onboard right now?