Just got back from Bahamas

I am fortunate to live part time in the Bahamas and to travel extensively all over the world. The rudest and most arrogant officials are to be found in the good ole USA.

Tingum said:

I am fortunate to live part time in the Bahamas and to travel extensively all over the world. The rudest and most arrogant officials are to be found in the good ole USA.

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That's a high position to hold....

I've been held at gun point while performing a HUMEVAC in one and almost handcuffed while traveling on military orders in another with "that country's" explicit capital permission.....never in the US...

Maybe it's who you are and what you are doing that sets the tone...I've seen great attitude ad compassion where ever I go...also arrogance and rudeness (but rudeness is often just a cultural thing that in a "global" world...some have to get a grip.

We're good at what we do...even if it's being rude...but hold the title???

I guess it depends who the judges are...

Being a US citizen my knowledge of the US treatment of non-citizens is all anecdotal. Over two-thirds of the Caribbean cruisers are not US citizens and I don't hear rudeness complaints.

My opinion is that the US visa requirements for citizens of visa waver countries arriving by boat are silly and not required but this is neither rude nor arrogant.
Background, the US does not require a visa for citizens of a number of countries if that citizen flies to the US, but if the same person arrives by his boat he is required to first go to a US embassy (consulate) and get a visa.

Just another factor in preparing to go to Bahamas

When I prepared to go to Bahamas ,I used the bible of cruising guides to Bahamas, it told me how many bottles of wine , beer, cigarettes,everything , It told me I could take weapons ,but it did not say what ever you do make sure you count each and every bullet. You would think that would be the most important priority. There is not one bit of information that says you can only have 250 rounds of ammo. , even when they were working me over did anyone of them know how many rounds were the law. All I can say is my trawler is the only home I have,I had a Jim bag with my pistol and ammo in it , that I used to go target practice with my retired buddies on Friday every once in awhile.

There is a fear of retribution

When you are in the Bahamas , You do not dare go around and tell anyone the customs official just ripped you off for $100.00 because you didn't think a receipt was important. You don't go around and say anything when you have been charged $2,500 cash for to many bullets. When I was in Nassau harbor there were boats that were boarded and confiscated pending litigation , imagine to cost there. If you have 1 joint it's automatic. I am only posting this first hand information so others will know, it's all fun and games until it's not.

This is the funny part of the whole event

While I was being interagated for too many bullets , I was driven around in private vehicles in Naussau I had my Jim bag with bullets in the back seat with me while my escorts and arresting custom officials were sitting up front with no one in the back with me and this went on for 3 hours until someone finally said maybe we should take his Jim bag.

No outboard here, thank goodness.



(As if I'd ever take the boat out of the USA.)

Wman2blame said:

When I prepared to go to Bahamas ,I used the bible of cruising guides to Bahamas, it told me how many bottles of wine , beer, cigarettes,everything , It told me I could take weapons ,but it did not say what ever you do make sure you count each and every bullet. You would think that would be the most important priority. There is not one bit of information that says you can only have 250 rounds of ammo. , even when they were working me over did anyone of them know how many rounds were the law. All I can say is my trawler is the only home I have,I had a Jim bag with my pistol and ammo in it , that I used to go target practice with my retired buddies on Friday every once in awhile.

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Why in Gods name would you want even 250 rounds, let alone any more!? Of course with 250 rounds and enough cases of Kalik Gold you could take over Cat Island or perhaps Rum Cay I guess.

So when you got to the part of the form that ask "Calibre & Qty. Ammunition" for the gun you are declaring you just thought they wanted you to guess at a number?

Instead of a cruising guide, next time try Google.

Boating Entering/Exiting Policies | The Official Site of The Bahamas

"If you have a firearm on board (shotguns and handguns only) you must declare it with Bahamian Customs. You must provide the serial number, name of the manufacturer, plus an exact count of ammunition. While you are allowed to have a firearm on your boat, you cannot remove it. Weapons must be under lock and key at all times. In cases of emergencies, which require your departure by air, you must notify Bahamian Police or Customs. They will accompany you to retrieve the firearm and present you with a receipt. Upon your return to the island, Bahamian Police or Customs will escort you to your vessel and return your firearm. Any infraction of this law will be dealt with severely."

I think you're quite fortunate for the rather modest fine. I'll say this to any gun owner, you better know the laws of every jurisdiction you travel in. If you don't believe the seriousness of that, ask those who have been incarcerated for three years in NYC, ask Plaxico Burress about the penalty for not having a hand gun registered in NY.

This wasn't just some minor miscount. That's why I asked the question of how many put on the document vs. actual. This wasn't saying 12 bullets and there were 13. This was over 250 rounds and I'm guessing not just one or two rounds over. Carrying 250 rounds seems outrageous to me, but then just guessing at the number. So, I see the Bahamas officials as very lenient. I could see that getting you some jail time in many jurisdictions. In the future I'd just advise you to know the gun laws wherever you go and comply 100%. Next time you might not be so lucky as just to incur a $2500 fine.

250 rounds is not outrageous to a gun owner that lives in a place where guns are as common as dogs not on a lease.

But I think the issue here is that the Bahamas has had a recent crime spree involving guns. Like many law enforcement jurisdictions...they may know the trick of not only following the money...follow the ammunition...it can tell a story of it's own.

psneeld said:

250 rounds is not outrageous to a gun owner that lives in a place where guns are as common as dogs not on a lease.

But I think the issue here is that the Bahamas has had a recent crime spree involving guns. Like many law enforcement jurisdictions...they may know the trick of not only following the money...follow the ammunition...it can tell a story of it's own.

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But it is outrageous to some law enforcement and to some other people. They key isn't how it feels to the owner, but how it is to law enforcement. And the necessity of accurate information and very careful adherence to the laws of each jurisdiction. And it's not what is common where the owner is from, but what the rules are where he is going. Many places with very open gun laws. But then others who will confiscate vehicles and throw you in jail.

And to add to your thought on the Bahamas and crime with guns. They know the majority of those guns come in on boats. A lesser number perhaps on planes.

Oh and dogs not on a leash is also illegal where we live...lol

BandB said:

But it is outrageous to some law enforcement and to some other people. They key isn't how it feels to the owner, but how it is to law enforcement. And the necessity of accurate information and very careful adherence to the laws of each jurisdiction. And it's not what is common where the owner is from, but what the rules are where he is going. Many places with very open gun laws. But then others who will confiscate vehicles and throw you in jail.

And to add to your thought on the Bahamas and crime with guns. They know the majority of those guns come in on boats. A lesser number perhaps on planes.

Oh and dogs not on a leash is also illegal where we live...lol

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Timing and location can be everything...and leaving your values and customs behind is hard...

We still don't know that the 250 rounds was the problem...or just the miscount (which I agree is an issue).

By country firearm regulations.

Firearms Regulations by Country - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Larry M said:

By country firearm regulations.

Firearms Regulations by Country - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

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Wow.. great resource,
Thanks
Larry

HOLLYWOOD

So, does anyone have any first hand knowledge of what happens if the firearm is actually discharged in these foreign countries? I would expect an intense interrogation at the very least. Would it require some sort of court action to determine justification for discharge even if there were no dead bodies left behind? I'm thinking a foreign country is not the place to go target shooting.

There may be local laws like the US that prevents their discharge in certain situations that are too numerous to even find on the internet. The best advice was already given...know not only the gun laws in every jurisdiction you go....know the "flavor" of the LEOs too....

Intense interrogation may be the lightest penalty you get.

The real problem with law enforcement is that it isn't always a legal issue...the more banana you go, the more banana you get sometimes....doesn't matter if you are following the law if the "law" decides not to approve of you and your "hobby".

Do cruise ships still have skeet off the stern?

My kids are both "expert shots" from shooting targets at sea when very young. One now is an "expert" gunner in the door of a Navy H-60.

It's funny...here in NJ the gun laws have gotten so restrictive...local LE and at least one prosecutor fear repercussions on second amendment rights and actually have internal regs/protocols going against state laws.

Read the story of the Marine arrested going into Mexico by mistake with guns in his truck. While there are some facts at issue, he claims he entered by mistake. Got on the highway to the border crossing without any turnaround. Got to the border, disclosed having a rifle, shotgun and handgun in his truck with quite a lot of ammo. Asked to be allowed to turn around and return to US, Was arrested April 1, still in prison in Mex, no hearings yet, no resolution of his case on the immediate horizon.

psneeld said:

250 rounds is not outrageous to a gun owner that lives in a place where guns are as common as dogs not on a lease.

But I think the issue here is that the Bahamas has had a recent crime spree involving guns. Like many law enforcement jurisdictions...they may know the trick of not only following the money...follow the ammunition...it can tell a story of it's own.

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Obviously 250 rounds is nothing if you own multiple guns and shoot a lot here in the States.

But its a tad excessive for one hand gun on a boat in the Bahamas.

Gun violence in the Bahamas is pretty much limited to Nassau and to a lesser degree Freeport. Get away from those places and while not unheard of it's pretty rare. Especially against tourists or cruisers. As is violence of any kind.

I'm not defending anyone or suggesting you need a gun for the Bahamas...

I was merely speculating why a person may have 250 rounds (in his home/only property) and why "bullet count" may be a higher priority than ever....according to what rules I have seen...there is no "limit" just accurate count.

While violence may be limited to a small area...bullet count may have distance ranging issues throughout the nation as I stated before.

YMMV

psneeld said:

I was merely speculating why a person may have 250 rounds (in his home/only property) and why "bullet count" may be a higher priority than ever....according to what rules I have seen...there is no "limit" just accurate count.

While violence may be limited to a small area...bullet count may have distance ranging issues throughout the nation as I stated before.

YMMV

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And they don't like being lied to. Now the intention may not have been lying, but still they were told a false number. The small punishment would indicate they felt it was just a mistake. If they had really felt he was trying to bring extra into the country for some negative reason, then it would have been more.

Many countries and many states have very strict gun laws. Some of them enforce their laws and rules very harshly. A gun owner needs to tread very softly.

Tingum said:

I am fortunate to live part time in the Bahamas and to travel extensively all over the world. The rudest and most arrogant officials are to be found in the good ole USA.

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Same here. Traveled to a handful of countries in the world now and getting back into the US is always the worst. I watched a Maori family from New Zealand (with multiple little kids) being abused and searched and fingerprinted something awful at the entry point at the airport in San Fran. Made me want to apologize to them on behalf of the whole country. You have to watch those little kids from New Zealand, they're all known terrorists

I have noticed that no one has discussed the reason that the Bahamas and other countries with similar laws require a count of ammunition. Basically this is their attempt to be accommodating to the foreign tourist/boaters. In lieu of putting the gun and ammunition into bonded storage during the visit the country allows the boater to hold the gun on the boat provided he or she doesn't fire the gun while in the country. To enforce this the country needs an exact count of the ammunition.

The alternatives are not as convenient, there are places that take the gun from you during the duration of our visit and then you have to go back to the original landing point when you leave the country to retrieve your gun. There are also countries which will allow you to keep the gun and ammunition on board but will require that it be in a stored compartment which the custom officers will seal and it must be kept sealed during the duration of your stay. Again more inconvenient as you lose use of this locker for your stay.

kthoennes said:

Same here. Traveled to a handful of countries in the world now and getting back into the US is always the worst. I watched a Maori family from New Zealand (with multiple little kids) being abused and searched and fingerprinted something awful at the entry point at the airport in San Fran. Made me want to apologize to them on behalf of the whole country. You have to watch those little kids from New Zealand, they're all known terrorists

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Hopefully you reported this to the correct level officials.....

kthoennes said:

Same here. Traveled to a handful of countries in the world now and getting back into the US is always the worst. I watched a Maori family from New Zealand (with multiple little kids) being abused and searched and fingerprinted something awful at the entry point at the airport in San Fran. Made me want to apologize to them on behalf of the whole country. You have to watch those little kids from New Zealand, they're all known terrorists

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and the same hand has opened the US/Mexican border to violent criminals and drug dealers to cross at their leisure.

windmill29130 said:

and the same hand has opened the US/Mexican border to violent criminals and drug dealers to cross at their leisure.

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Exactly....security comes at a price most don't understand....

then again Ben Franklin said it best..."They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"....

Yet... the biggest whiners about liberties are then at the head of the line whining about terrorism whether shooting in schools or trade center type disasters.

I'd like to see anyone juggle the balancing act and make everyone happy....not gonna happen.

The absolute biggest mistake in security is thinking "something" is "normal" or "OK" or "innocent"...thus Ben's wisdom is best....but then you can't whine about loved ones dying or being hurt.

Like Capt. Bill, I have been cruising the Bahamas and captaining charters there from the Abacos to the Turks & Caicos. Made my first crossing in 1982 and have been going there ever since - averaging three or four 2-way crossings per season. In fact, spent the better part of the past decade based out of Marsh Harbour in Spring and Summer for charters all over the Bahamas. So, I have some basis for saying that, like Capt. Bill, I have NEVER felt the need for gun protection there. If you use your good common sense, you will find it to be MUCH safer than South Florida and that the Bahamians are a giving, friendly people. The big Yamaha theft issue will continue as long as the Caribbean craves them. My advice for you outboard folks is to buy Suzukis and no one will mess with them!

As several posters have noted, abide by their laws (declare everything that must be declared, don't poach lobster or conch, pay the ridiculous cruising fee) and all will be fine. It is fabulous cruising and (IMHO) there is no place on earth like the Abacos or Exumas!

ERIC