What-to-look-for when buying

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everhopeful

Member
Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
6
Location
France
hi all

- firstly my apologies at jumping straight in with a post and not reading through everyone else's, but it's getting late and i have to pretend to be intelligent tomorrow.

- i have a chance to buy a 1990 Marine Trader for a good price.
- i attach a pic, not a good one but all i have.
- She is:

* 15 meters l.a.w. and 16.5 meters l.o.a
* twin 320 hp turbocharged cat 3208's with 1148 hours work
* been taken for a spin 3 times in the last year.
* last owner (for 8-9 yeas) was diesel conscious so didn't take the revs above 1800-2000
* tidy boat with 3 previous owners, all elderly, 2 german and 1 english
* well looked after, oil and filters changed every 200-300 hours.
* she starts with one push of the button, engines hunt for 30-45 seconds then go to smooth idle, then can be revved up to 27-2800 without a miss or any smoke. oil pressures identical for both.
* clean oil in transfer boxes.

- she had a good structural survey survey 3 1/2 years ago, found absolutely zero wrong with anything. no hint of the pox or ay damage or repairs.
- i'm getting her lifted out and water blasted to see if anythings happened below the water since.
- i'll take her for a good sea trial when she's back in but i must admit i have never even been on a trader before so was hoping the wealth of experience here could help me in what to look for PLEASE.

- is there anything they are prone to?
- do they have any known weaknesses?
- any areas that i should make a point of checking?

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR HELP AND EXPERIENCE.
 
Mate,
By description she sounds pretty good.
She is still a 24 year old boat.
Get a good surveyor to give her a through going over, especially decks , windows etc where rot could be present.
This gives you peace of mind and also probably some bargaining points to reduce the price a bit.
Get a fire hose and hose down the wheelhouse to check all the windows .
Engines should be good but less use is worse that high use in some instances.
Has there been oil analysis done over the last few years, personally I don't think that's a biggie but then that's my business.

If you do a search thru the forum there are some very good check lists for buying boats listed.

Cheers
Benn
 
You may not have time to hire a surveyor for tomorrow, but if you're inclined to make an offer to hold the boat, you might consider making the offer contingent on satisfactory boat and engine surveys and a sea trial. That might allow you time to hold the boat for your purchase while you do your due diligence. If anything comes up that scares you away, you have an out or a chance to reduce the purchase price. If it's all good, you have an agreed upon price.

Don't go by that 3 1/2 year old survey...it could have come from the seller's drunk second cousin. (Apologies to any drunk second cousins out there.) Pay an independent surveyor to look out for you and your interests. It could be the best money you ever spend.
 
If the boat has a GPs, turn it on and check the previous tracks and look for any MOBs that have notes attached to them. Also see if it gives stats on the avg mpg from previous usage . And bring your ball-peen hammer to knock on the stringers.
 
I'm not sure about the newer 1990's the older ones watch out for leaking steel diesel tanks, if it has a teak deck check for leaks or soft spots. Some had substandard wiring. I think they are overall nice boats. Most I have seen are 36-40 feet and powered by a single 120 Lehman. I'd second getting a profesional surveyor to go over the vessel.
Bill
 
FlyWright said:
You may not have time to hire a surveyor for tomorrow, but if you're inclined to make an offer to hold the boat, you might consider making the offer contingent on satisfactory boat and engine surveys and a sea trial. That might allow you time to hold the boat for your purchase while you do your due diligence. If anything comes up that scares you away, you have an out or a chance to reduce the purchase price. If it's all good, you have an agreed upon price.

Don't go by that 3 1/2 year old survey...it could have come from the seller's drunk second cousin. (Apologies to any drunk second cousins out there.) Pay an independent surveyor to look out for you and your interests. It could be the best money you ever spend.
Click to expand...

Al that's exactly what I did with the Gulfstar we closed on today!
Bill
 
everhopeful said:
hi all

- firstly my apologies at jumping straight in with a post and not reading through everyone else's, but it's getting late and i have to pretend to be intelligent tomorrow.

- i have a chance to buy a 1990 Marine Trader for a good price.
- i attach a pic, not a good one but all i have.
- She is:

* 15 meters l.a.w. and 16.5 meters l.o.a
* twin 320 hp turbocharged cat 3208's with 1148 hours work
* been taken for a spin 3 times in the last year.
* last owner (for 8-9 yeas) was diesel conscious so didn't take the revs above 1800-2000
* tidy boat with 3 previous owners, all elderly, 2 german and 1 english
* well looked after, oil and filters changed every 200-300 hours.
* she starts with one push of the button, engines hunt for 30-45 seconds then go to smooth idle, then can be revved up to 27-2800 without a miss or any smoke. oil pressures identical for both.
* clean oil in transfer boxes.

- she had a good structural survey survey 3 1/2 years ago, found absolutely zero wrong with anything. no hint of the pox or ay damage or repairs.
- i'm getting her lifted out and water blasted to see if anythings happened below the water since.
- i'll take her for a good sea trial when she's back in but i must admit i have never even been on a trader before so was hoping the wealth of experience here could help me in what to look for PLEASE.

- is there anything they are prone to?
- do they have any known weaknesses?
- any areas that i should make a point of checking?

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR HELP AND EXPERIENCE.
Click to expand...

Learn how to inspect her yourself before spending money on a surveyor.
Marine Survey 101
 
boatpoker said:
Learn how to inspect her yourself before spending money on a surveyor.
Marine Survey 101
Click to expand...

Yes, surely you can read and develop the skill of a professional surveyor with 20 years experience by tomorrow morning and still get a good night's sleep.

Sorry, I have to disagree with your advice. I strongly recommend finding a good surveyor and perhaps a second person to survey the engines if necessary (depending on qualifications of primary surveyor).
 
BandB said:
Yes, surely you can read and develop the skill of a professional surveyor with 20 years experience by tomorrow morning and still get a good night's sleep.

Sorry, I have to disagree with your advice. I strongly recommend finding a good surveyor and perhaps a second person to survey the engines if necessary (depending on qualifications of primary surveyor).
Click to expand...

If you had taken the time to go to the link you'd see that the article states and is designed to help the novice weed out the junk before spending money on a surveyor, there is no attempt to suggest that they can be a surveyor after a 15 minute review. I did a survey yesterday that the fella need not have wasted his money if he had looked at that article first. The boat had several serious issues that are addressed specifically in the article.
 
boatpoker said:
If you had taken the time to go to the link you'd see that the article states and is designed to help the novice weed out the junk before spending money on a surveyor, there is no attempt to suggest that they can be a surveyor after a 15 minute review. I did a survey yesterday that the fella need not have wasted his money if he had looked at that article first. The boat had several serious issues that are addressed specifically in the article.
Click to expand...

I did go to the link and look through the article and did not interpret it the same way you did. Yes, many issues are addressed in the article. But it also seemed quite detailed and very much like a survey to me, requiring a lot of time and beyond the knowledge and experience of the average boater. It's certainly quite extensive.
 
Too bad you aren't looking for a car. I know this little old lady from Pasadena. . .
 
MYTraveler said:
Too bad you aren't looking for a car. I know this little old lady from Pasadena. . .
Click to expand...

Wifey B: Go, Granny. Go, Granny. Go, Granny, Go.

In her younger days, I bet it was:

Fun fun fun till her daddy takes the t-bird away.
 
I agree the pamphlet is pretty comprehensive but it is all knowledge a boat owner should at least be aware of. If you can't recognize a problem, you can't call in a specialist or fix it yourself. I'm no surveyor but we walked away from boats we went to see without even stepping on the dock. We looked at 5 and walked away from 2 because of problems like those in surveying 101. Two others just didn't ring our bell. The third, we checked and checked again and then called the surveyor
 
hi all, thank you all for your comments and advice. i did manage to get a surveyor to turn up at such short notice. as the boat had only been out of the water 2 days and hadn't had time to dry out yet, he did an infrared scan of the hull to look for uniformity, and she was pretty close, no pox/bubbles or signs of damage, repairs or delamination. he found engine sea cocks and leaking stern tubes so she didn't go back in the water for a while so he didn't hear a few things running, but all-in-all he thought she was in good shape.
NOW, the biggy is she is registered as a Marine Trader 47, the surveyor in his report called her a Trader 50……….. BUT she has turned out to be a Hatteras HiStar 52 or 53 Cockpit!!!
Now my paranoia gland is pumping and i'm thinking has she been stolen? Her HIN is still in the engine room but it's been removed from the rear of the boat and she's registered in a country she's never been to. The previous "owner" (yes i bought it on the strength of the survey and a legal agreement) is now having trouble producing the transaction history i need to prove tax has been paid somewhere/anywhere, or i can be up for 10-12% of her worth if i decide to stop in a country i really like for more than 6 months.
a smart man would probably keep his head down, say nothing and have a quiet life but i'm worried one day as i'm filling up somewhere, someone will tap me on the shoulder. any ideas please?!?
 
everhopeful said:
hi all, thank you all for your comments and advice. i did manage to get a surveyor to turn up at such short notice. as the boat had only been out of the water 2 days and hadn't had time to dry out yet, he did an infrared scan of the hull to look for uniformity, and she was pretty close, no pox/bubbles or signs of damage, repairs or delamination. he found engine sea cocks and leaking stern tubes so she didn't go back in the water for a while so he didn't hear a few things running, but all-in-all he thought she was in good shape.
NOW, the biggy is she is registered as a Marine Trader 47, the surveyor in his report called her a Trader 50……….. BUT she has turned out to be a Hatteras HiStar 52 or 53 Cockpit!!!
Now my paranoia gland is pumping and i'm thinking has she been stolen? Her HIN is still in the engine room but it's been removed from the rear of the boat and she's registered in a country she's never been to. The previous "owner" (yes i bought it on the strength of the survey and a legal agreement) is now having trouble producing the transaction history i need to prove tax has been paid somewhere/anywhere, or i can be up for 10-12% of her worth if i decide to stop in a country i really like for more than 6 months.
a smart man would probably keep his head down, say nothing and have a quiet life but i'm worried one day as i'm filling up somewhere, someone will tap me on the shoulder. any ideas please?!?
Click to expand...

Is it by any chance documented or titled? That would allow you to trace back. If not that, try to trace the registrations back.

I'm not familiar with a Hatteras HiStar so don't know that nomenclature. Does it appear by any chance to have ever been lengthened?
 
What country was she registered in and what name is marked on her ?
What is her HIN ?

PM me if you don't want to make that info public knowledge. I may be able to find out more info.
 
Greetings,
Mr. e. No big deal with the "never been to" country of registration. There are many instances of boats being registered offshore for tax purposes but usually much larger vessels as far as I know (flags of convenience). Indeed, NOW is the time to research and document her history. Too early to get lawyers involved but IF there is any hanky-pankey going on, best to either get your money back or be prepared for court. Have you tried researching the records of the other country?
 
everhopeful said:
Now my paranoia gland is pumping and i'm thinking has she been stolen? Her HIN is still in the engine room but it's been removed from the rear of the boat and she's registered in a country she's never been to.
Click to expand...

If the engines are original, Hattaras should have records to confirm what hull they put those engines in. If their HIN matches your documents then that is about conclusive that you have the right boat. Also, boats have a secondary location where the HIN is placed -- ask Hattaras where to look.

everhopeful said:
The previous "owner" (yes i bought it on the strength of the survey and a legal agreement) is now having trouble producing the transaction history i need to prove tax has been paid somewhere/anywhere, or i can be up for 10-12% of her worth if i decide to stop in a country i really like for more than 6 months.
Click to expand...

My experience is admittedly limited, but I don't think many other countries care whether you have paid sales tax somewhere. That is more of a state issue, and many states will impose a tax (if the boat meets their jurisdictional requirements) if you didn't pay tax -- even if some prior owner did.
 
MYTraveler said:
My experience is admittedly limited, but I don't think many other countries care whether you have paid sales tax somewhere. That is more of a state issue, and many states will impose a tax (if the boat meets their jurisdictional requirements) if you didn't pay tax -- even if some prior owner did.
Click to expand...

If Marine Trader, there could be an issue too of whether duty on US import has been paid.

A very bizarre situation. There should be many clues though as to whether it's a Marine Trader or a Hatteras. Are you certain the engines are CAT 3208's? I don't see where Marine Trader used CAT engines so that would lean toward it being Hatteras. Do you have a photo of the boat? Or a listing? If she's a Hatteras but has been registered over the years as a Marine Trader then all the reasons I can think of to explain that are not very good.
 
"If Marine Trader, there could be an issue too of whether duty on US import has been paid"

"That is more of a state issue, and many states will impose a tax"

Don't think Us imports or state taxes apply in France..really not sure

And would almost swear that A hatt and a Hi star are two dif boats, But I have been wrong before
 
Quick!!..get your money back and run the other way. This sounds like a VERY bad deal.
 
Seyfer2 said:
"If Marine Trader, there could be an issue too of whether duty on US import has been paid"

"That is more of a state issue, and many states will impose a tax"

Don't think Us imports or state taxes apply in France..really not sure

And would almost swear that A hatt and a Hi star are two dif boats, But I have been wrong before
Click to expand...

Overlooked the France part. Hi Star is from Activa Marine. I don't know how the Hatteras Hi Star information came to the OP. Thought maybe Hi Star some model I'd never heard of but you're right, now we have three builders in play. Confusion between Hi Star and Marine Trader easier to understand. Now you're possibly into one brand built at another's yard. Perhaps started at one, finished by another.

What made you say it was a Hatteras Hi Star? How was that opinion formed?

Some information:

Marine Trading International (MTI) known for its line of Taiwan-built trawlers. The company began operations in 1968 and has imported over 3,000 boats, more by far than any other importer in the country. Marine Trader models came from many different Taiwan (and other) manufacturers over the years. The Hull ID number will alert a competent Yacht Broker to the manufacturer.

So if you tossed Hatteras out of the picture, having a Marine Trader built by the Activa Marine (Hi Star) boatyard is possible.
 
hi again, well the reason i thought it was a trader 47 is because that's what the seller called it and that's what it was called on it's UK ssr register, and me being a bit of a newbie i didn't give it a second thought, till i saw this artwork on the port side, then the name HiStar on the engine room name plate, then went online and saw what she really is. i attach pics. the thing is the surveyor was a lazy bastard as he called it a Marine Trader 50 on his report. coincidences play with an active imagination e.g. the boat has NO paper work or recipes or invoices or anything anywhere, and she wasn't tidy. who has a boat for 8-9 years, isn't too tidy but has left NO paper work in a any drawer, cupboard, engine room etc etc? the guy i bought it from has had it 8-9 years (6 years independently verified) but about 6 years ago had a very similar to look at boat that wasn't as good (people "think" it was a Trader) who's name was the same as this one but for a "t" on the end.one day that had disappeared "sold" to holland and is never seen again. didn't they use to do that scam with race horses? to be honest…… and please don't take this the wrong way, i'm scared to give anyone the h.i.n. in case it is hot and i lose it. the 6 digit string from the h.i.n. plate (screwed to the door step just inside the engine room) are what has been used as the h.i.n. on the uk ssr records. do i just kick back and pour another wine or…………..
 

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everhopeful said:
and please don't take this the wrong way, i'm scared to give anyone the h.i.n. in case it is hot and i lose it. the 6 digit string from the h.i.n. plate
Click to expand...

HIN's are 12 characters not six.

You'll feel much worse if you lose it after you pay for it. That has happened twice to boats I have surveyed.
 
everhopeful said:
hi again, well the reason i thought it was a trader 47 is because that's what the seller called it and that's what it was called on it's UK ssr register, and me being a bit of a newbie i didn't give it a second thought, till i saw this artwork on the port side, then the name HiStar on the engine room name plate, then went online and saw what she really is. i attach pics. the thing is the surveyor was a lazy bastard as he called it a Marine Trader 50 on his report. coincidences play with an active imagination e.g. the boat has NO paper work or recipes or invoices or anything anywhere, and she wasn't tidy. who has a boat for 8-9 years, isn't too tidy but has left NO paper work in a any drawer, cupboard, engine room etc etc? the guy i bought it from has had it 8-9 years (6 years independently verified) but about 6 years ago had a very similar to look at boat that wasn't as good (people "think" it was a Trader) who's name was the same as this one but for a "t" on the end.one day that had disappeared "sold" to holland and is never seen again. didn't they use to do that scam with race horses? to be honest…… and please don't take this the wrong way, i'm scared to give anyone the h.i.n. in case it is hot and i lose it. the 6 digit string from the h.i.n. plate (screwed to the door step just inside the engine room) are what has been used as the h.i.n. on the uk ssr records. do i just kick back and pour another wine or…………..
Click to expand...

I don't understand at all. Surely you haven't bought it? If not, how would you lose it? You find out it's stolen so don't buy it. Surely you wouldn't want to buy a stolen boat. Would you? And where in the world did Hatteras come from in your earlier post if the name plate says HiStar?

You're playing with fire.
 
everhopeful said:
Now my paranoia gland is pumping and i'm thinking has she been stolen? Her HIN is still in the engine room but it's been removed from the rear of the boat and she's registered in a country she's never been to. The previous "owner" (yes i bought it on the strength of the survey and a legal agreement) is now having trouble producing the transaction history i need to prove tax has been paid somewhere/anywhere, or i can be up for 10-12% of her worth if i decide to stop in a country i really like for more than 6 months.
a smart man would probably keep his head down, say nothing and have a quiet life but i'm worried one day as i'm filling up somewhere, someone will tap me on the shoulder. any ideas please?!?
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like he paid for the boat already.
 
FlyWright said:
Sounds to me like he paid for the boat already.
Click to expand...

Guess I was just reading this morning he was talking about a survey and things not yet checked plus some issues. Then he's talking like he proceeded with the deal in spite of the issues and questions.
 
"I bought it" seems fairly conclusive, though some parts of the story, like about a previous boat,I`m not sure I understood. The concerns are apparently hindsight buyers remorse(with pike, to use a diving term). The time to establish good seller`s title is between agreement and settlement. Here, if the seller had no title there is a "failure of consideration", you`d be entitled to your $ back.IF you could extract it from the seller (has he disappeared?). And the true owner would be entitled to retake possession, however many hands the boat has been through. I suggest you get local legal advice, then you`ll know the score. Staying quiet and doing nothing may well be an option if you`ve paid, can`t establish title and the seller has disappeared.
 
BruceK said:
... Staying quiet and doing nothing may well be an option if you`ve paid, can`t establish title and the seller has disappeared.
Click to expand...

Does that work when registering/documenting the boat? Basic background inquiery would determine if the boat was stolen, but I have no information on the competency of the governments/bureaucracies involved.
 
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