Mandatory Dye Tablets for Your Black tank??

Art said:

Simple Solution: Holding tank with no over board release outlet, i.e. evacuation by pump-out only! That's what we have. Make that mandatory and there cannot be effluent released into waters. Period!

Ta heck with blue die!

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Not exactly practical for those of us who venture offshore. We have Headhunter MSD Treatment Systems.

Still we are fine with the restrictions at marinas or in close harbors and would have no issue with the dyes. Not discharging doesn't create a problem for us in those situations. It's on long runs and offshore runs we need to discharge. Also, even though we could legally discharge untreated when more than 3 miles out, we don't choose to do so. Similarly we don't choose to dump bottles or cans. We compact them and dispose of them when we reach shore.

Art said:

Simple Solution: Holding tank with no over board release outlet, i.e. evacuation by pump-out only! That's what we have. Make that mandatory and there cannot be effluent released into waters. Period!

Ta heck with blue die!

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I guess if you don't actually go anywhere that would work.

BandB said:

Not exactly practical for those of us who venture offshore. We have Headhunter MSD Treatment Systems.

Still we are fine with the restrictions at marinas or in close harbors and would have no issue with the dyes. Not discharging doesn't create a problem for us in those situations. It's on long runs and offshore runs we need to discharge. Also, even though we could legally discharge untreated when more than 3 miles out, we don't choose to do so. Similarly we don't choose to dump bottles or cans. We compact them and dispose of them when we reach shore.

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I agree that if a boat stays off shore for L-O-N-G durations that “in sea water” black-water discharge capability would be required. And, there could/should be exclusions in a "no-discharge" holding tank rule (law) wherein long duration off shore boats can be issued permits that enable overboard sewage discharge capabilities.

However, how many pleasure boats are actually far away from some form of pump out facility for more than a fairly short time? Correct head units and sizable holding tanks can enable considerable length of several to many days before black water becomes a burden. I’d venture to guess that over 95% of all pleasure boats are not ever far away from pump outs (e.g. dockside pumps or pump boats) for more than one to four days max. There is no real need to have a black water release on the majority of pleasure boats.

That said – I think that the vast amount of seawater and large lake human effluent pollution comes from land based treatment plants. In Nor Cal there are too often news reports of multi thousand gallon sewage overloads spewed into our bays and coastal waters. These usually happen during rainy seasons. The drought of last couple years seems to have reduced this effect.

In 1950’s / 60’s I was brought up in NY, Queens, and Nassau County LI. Want to talk about water pollution??? I’ve got some pretty F’d up stories about when I was young on those inland and coastal waters! In what I see for 2014 we humans have done a pretty good job of cleaning up our act. Still have more cleaning to accomplish, and, making a law to have NO-Discharge black water holding tanks in most pleasure boats would be a step in the right direction.

Happy Pleasure Boating Daze! - Art

Art said:

making a law to have NO-Discharge black water holding tanks in most pleasure boats would be a step in the right direction. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Happy Pleasure Boating Daze! - Art

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Now sure how you make a "most boat" law. Plus even those that you'd say fit the majority of the time, may have that occasional trip. For instance, many boats on the East coast stay close to shore most of the time but then have that occasional trip to the Bahamas or the Caribbean. I understand your intent and it makes sense, just complicated to decide which boats it belongs to.

Of course this is one of those many places where it would sure be nice if we just had one consistent set of rules and not 50 different ones for each state plus various subsets of those 50.

What is needed is a system with no BUILT IN waste discharge system, to please thr poop police.

Easy to imagine a system with a high mounted tank & deck discharge that could be emptied by syphon from a hose simply trailed in the water at low speed .

In my cruising around the United States and Canada I have found several "systems" which seem to actually reduce/eliminate the in harbor waste dumps

In Chicago, each boat is inspected at the beginning of the season and the Y valve and macerator pump out are locked shut with a numbered cable tie. Since there is no legal ability to dump within 1,000 miles there is no reason for the boat owner to remove the cable tie. No cable tie on a future inspection can be grounds for fines etc. Free pump outs are available at many slips with hoses and equipment already on the docks. In addition a pump out boat service is available for the true yachtsman who prefers not to do the work himself.

In Norfolk Virginia and several marines in the US southeast pump outs were free as part of the slip rental. Can't recall the marina but portable pump out units were wheeled to your slip.

On the opposed side of things I remember several New England marinas in 2004 where the pump out equipment was located in a slip that was difficult / dangerous if not impossible for me to dock my Krogen 42 in. There was government money to finance the pump out equipment and perhaps a requirement that it be on site, but no oversight as to whether it was actually usable.

Given human nature, I don't believe that education alone will solve the problem. Either strict supervision of the boats or making the pump outs easy and free are the two workable solutions.

OK - With this being an ongoing question/answer/proposition thinking-quiz regarding human effluent dumping into water or pumping-out for land based recycling... let me stir the shat (so to say - lol) just a bit more!

1. Why if LectraSan and other such “fecal matter caustic reducers/removers/sanitizers” are scientifically proven to work so well is there not a law that says each boat should have one on board for helping to sanitize 3-mile or further out holding tank dumping sequences?

2. If a boat is BIG enough to stay off shore or go off shore (3-miles minimum) long enough (i.e. not near any pump out service) to fill their holding tank(s) why do they not have a switch-over available on each head to a LectraSan type of fecal-cleansing system so the holding tank needs not be filled to point of need for massive quanity of sudden raw or treated sewage release into the sea?

3. IMHO – There can be four (4) types of “flush/drain” water from any boat:
a. Black Water – That containing fecal matter and urine – From the boat’s head
b. Yellow Water – That containing urine only – From boat’s head, during long swims, sometimes over the bow rail during male actuated anchor checks before dawn - LOL
c. Grey Water – That containing bio degradable wash soaps and cleaning agents as well as body and food oils etc. – from showers, galley/head sinks, or boat item wash-downs
d. White Water – That containing simply dirty water (no added cleansing agents) used for dust/dirt wash downs (via rags, sponges, mops...etc) on any boat portion

So here are three questions and a statement:

- Of the four “flush/drain water” types I’ve listed in sequence of what I believe to have any detrimental/caustic effect to sea/large-lake waters shouldn’t “a. Black Water” be the only one really needing holding tank containment and then proper disposal (in one of several stringently supervised forms or varieties)?
- Should “b. Yellow Water” be allowed to flush through LectraSan or such sanitizer into any water area (maybe even “Yellow Water” could be non treated???)?
- Does “c. Grey Water” need any attention before drainage into waters where a boat sits or passes through?
- I believe “d. White Water” is no more detrimental than rain washing the boat naturally.

Happy Boating Daze! - Art

Art, here is our solution to the problem. Moonstruck cruises in different areas. In the Bahamas there are few pump out facilities. I think they depend on the tides sweeping across the Banks to flush out pollutant. From Biscayne Bay to Key West (and probably Garden Key} there is a zero discharge zone.

Here is what we installed.

Raritan Engineering | Waste Treatment | Hold n' Treat

We did not do the installation as shown with Raritan's dinky holding tank. We have a 70 gal. holding tank, and use it. This gives us the flexibility to pump over treated sewage, or turn off and lock the system for holding tank use. We looked at it several different ways, and this seemed best for us.

Key West has mandatory pump outs.

Art said:

Simple Solution: Holding tank with no over board release outlet, i.e. evacuation by pump-out only! That's what we have. Make that mandatory and there cannot be effluent released into waters. Period!

Ta heck with blue die!

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Ya think? You want the authorities to plug the outlets of your boat so you cannot pump out where it's legal? You want to have to "hold it" because the tank is full and the pumpout is broken or closed for the night?

Realistically, it's impossible to prevent boaters from dumping sewage into the water if they want to. If they can't pump it overboard they can pee off the swim platform or poop in a bucket and dump it overboard when nobody is looking.

Make pumpouts free and easy and people will use them. Make it difficult and they will not.

That's reality, like it or not.

Moonstruck said:

Art, here is our solution to the problem. Moonstruck cruises in different areas. In the Bahamas there are few pump out facilities. I think they depend on the tides sweeping across the Banks to flush out pollutant. From Biscayne Bay to Key West (and probably Garden Key} there is a zero discharge zone.

Here is what we installed.

Raritan Engineering | Waste Treatment | Hold n' Treat

We did not do the installation as shown with Raritan's dinky holding tank. We have a 70 gal. holding tank, and use it. This gives us the flexibility to pump over treated sewage, or turn off and lock the system for holding tank use. We looked at it several different ways, and this seemed best for us.

Key West has mandatory pump outs.

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Don - That's Da Ticket! Congrats!!

I've read about that type of "full" system. For S&G (pun intended - lol) What was the overall cost of installation?

Probably north of $3000.00 including some expensive labor I paid. It would have been more, but ours doesn't stink you know.

Moonstruck said:

Probably north of $3000.00 including some expensive labor I paid. It would have been more, but ours doesn't stink you know.

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So - Whose Does??

When we first purchased our dual-head Tolly I brought in a certified Raritan installation specialist to correctly set things up. Considerable equipment was already on board and some was added. We're not set up same as you... but... our craft does easily pass muster - so to say!

How many days can you cruise before your holding tank is full and in that time how many had no access to a pump out station if you chose to pull into a port and use it ? I sometimes wonder if fish in a area that just got dumped on get contaminated and then a fisherman happens to catch those fish get sick. To me anyone that dumps untreated waste at the legal 3 mile instead of taking the time to use a available pump out station is no better than throwing trash out the window of your car legal or not unless you are on a very long several week type crossing. I hear people say I run out the 3 miles to dump so I can run my engines, and that's with two pump out stations both easy to use in the harbor. Use the pump out station before or after you go out.
You know more and more people are going to turn against the boat dumping the more they hear about it and then big brother will come in and say unless your boat is a zillion feet long no overboard dumping. Start using the pump out stations as often as you can so people and big brother notice that. Just a thought.

Another discussion about things people have little experience with except what they do on a regular basis.

There are places where pumpouts are a complete afterthought...even in places where NDZs are present or right around the corner.

I find it much more environmentally favorable to build a pumpout system that uses resources and energy to run rather than dumping 3 miles out and in hours or a day everything is biologically sanitized....ARE YOU SERIOUS???????

Human based disease I seriously doubt is transmitted to fish and back again to humans...heavy metals is one thing, bacteria is another.

Urine is sterile for the most part...make up your own minds...a couple thousand peeing into a trillion gallons where you swim or a pool where a kid pees in 20,000 gallons or so...which is worse?

Most people need a grip about this subject...almost as many assumptions and speculations as boating accidents.

A backpacker magazine I read strongly suggested smearing your body waste on rocks so the suns UV would sterilize it almost immediately instead of burying it and having it unsanitary for days or weeks.

You decide...I'll vote and pump and hold to my own conscience...I feel a system that treats to whatever degree is the best solution...even if you are full and need to pump it out into a NDZ...its better than the local town that overflows raw sewage when something goes wrong...at least your effluent is almost bacteria free.

So many opinions and so little "big picture" thought.

Well here is the solution:

Enforce the exsisting laws on the books......

I know kind of simple..

In my area, the government doesn't think restrooms or even porta-potties are needed at boat ramps so what do people do after a long day on the water drinking beer? They pee (or poop) directly into the river (not illegal, BTW).

So what's the difference between peeing or pooping directly into the river or into a boat head and then pumping it out? Nothing but the legality of it. Actually, coming from a boat, at least it's chopped up into little pieces, not floating as a log on the surface.

Obviously we don't want the QE II dumping it's holding tank in the local harbor, but the poop from a few small boats is nothing compared to the poop from fish and marine mammals. It's also nothing compared to what many cities and towns contribute through overflow or accidents.

Greetings,
I'm with Mr. bumpbug on this one. VERY valid point about municipal spills. Most laws are NOT for the average citizen who follows rules of etiquette, in the broadest sense. The laws are for the boors who think nothing of what effect his/her actions has on others around. So if it takes dyeing effluent, mandatory pumping or NDZ's so be it. I think Mr. ASD is spot on (post #45).

What is done in a "BlueBird" or "Bounder" or other fully self contained Motor Home...

Think there are many motor home owners who let 50 +/- gallons of their crap and t-paper fly out while on the road, or pull over alongside the road with a downward sloped edge so effluent can roll down the hill to eventually become sanitized by nature???

Hell no! They go find and utilize a pump-out station - even if they are camping in nature and not staying at a recognized camp ground.

So... why should boaters be any different??? OK, OK - if there simply is not a pump-out in range and the tank gets full - then drain it some or even empty it totally if necessary. That’s called an emergency.

The only reason most boats dump hold-outs into water is because the Captain just hates to be bothered in locating/using a pump-out service.

We all need to take responsibility for our own actions. If anyone feels it is correct to dump 20, 30, 75, or even 100 gallons of untreated, fermenting weeks-old-poop and t-paper onto waters anywhere inside the 3 mile mark (even that rather slight distance off shore is questionable) then leave it lay on your own conscience.

You know why we each shower/bathe 3 to 7 times per week?? Cause humans are basically dirty; and, we want to stay clean/smelling good. Know why on olden times we had out houses... cause our crap stinks. Know why technology eventually developed flush toilets, sewer systems, and treatment plants that (try to) sanitize our effluent – cause we’re fairly smart. Know what mariners did for time in memorial before our modern age – they dumped all their crap right into the water. Do you know what we should be doing with pump-out locations being fairly plentiful? I’ll leave the answer to that up to your own intelligence and conscience!

Happy Keeping Water Clean Daze! Art

Been a long term RVer and long term boater...to compare the two where 99% of the RV campsites I've been to have instant sewage drainaige versus boating where 0% have instant sewage drainaige shows a complete misunderstanding of the issue.

Greetings,
Mr. P. FULLY agree. Closest pump out to us, if and when it's working, is about an hours run. The NEXT one is 7 hours away. We go on shore.

Art said:

.

The only reason most boats dump hold-outs into water is because the Captain just hates to be bothered in locating/using a pump-out service.

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The nice thing about Oregon and Washington is the states put pump outs everywhere and they are free!

psneeld said:

Human based disease I seriously doubt is transmitted to fish and back again to humans...heavy metals is one thing, bacteria is another.

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Fish, no. Shellfish is a different matter.

Hepatitis outbreaks are usually the result of shoreside houses with faulty plumbing. On the other hand it might be very difficult to prove more transient sources (like boats) as the cause of an outbreak.

RVers don't dump illegally....

I have 78000 miles of RVing before getting back to cruising and this is generally true. Couldn't resist this one tho...

Chicago Tribune

Dave

In my area we are on the edge of a NDZ, but we are in it. I have a hold-n-treat PuraSan unit that can only treat waste from my holding tank. In Little Egg at least the County runs 2 pump out boats. They visit me once a week. This works out well for my wife and I. When we go south of Little Egg into Great Egg we use the H-N-T PuraSan. Either way I'm good except the County employees that run the boats always hold their hand out for a tip. I use a Raritan Marine Elegance low water flush head and a 36 gallon holding tank. I'm installing the same system in my Gulfstar only the holding tank will be 45 gallons.
I gladly give a tip to pump out boat operator.
Bill

Moonstruck said:

Art, here is our solution to the problem. Moonstruck cruises in different areas. In the Bahamas there are few pump out facilities. I think they depend on the tides sweeping across the Banks to flush out pollutant. From Biscayne Bay to Key West (and probably Garden Key} there is a zero discharge zone.

Here is what we installed.

Raritan Engineering | Waste Treatment | Hold n' Treat

We did not do the installation as shown with Raritan's dinky holding tank. We have a 70 gal. holding tank, and use it. This gives us the flexibility to pump over treated sewage, or turn off and lock the system for holding tank use. We looked at it several different ways, and this seemed best for us.

Key West has mandatory pump outs.

Click to expand...

+1 That's what we use in our current boat and the Gulfstar is getting them same system only a larger type III.
Bill

psneeld said:

Another discussion about things people have little experience with except what they do on a regular basis.

There are places where pumpouts are a complete afterthought...even in places where NDZs are present or right around the corner.

I find it much more environmentally favorable to build a pumpout system that uses resources and energy to run rather than dumping 3 miles out and in hours or a day everything is biologically sanitized....ARE YOU SERIOUS???????

Human based disease I seriously doubt is transmitted to fish and back again to humans...heavy metals is one thing, bacteria is another.

Urine is sterile for the most part...make up your own minds...a couple thousand peeing into a trillion gallons where you swim or a pool where a kid pees in 20,000 gallons or so...which is worse?

Most people need a grip about this subject...almost as many assumptions and speculations as boating accidents.

A backpacker magazine I read strongly suggested smearing your body waste on rocks so the suns UV would sterilize it almost immediately instead of burying it and having it unsanitary for days or weeks.

You decide...I'll vote and pump and hold to my own conscience...I feel a system that treats to whatever degree is the best solution...even if you are full and need to pump it out into a NDZ...its better than the local town that overflows raw sewage when something goes wrong...at least your effluent is almost bacteria free.

So many opinions and so little "big picture" thought.

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Just an article I ran across to this link but I am showing a part of it. granted it is somewhere else but I am sure you could find other news.

" Sewage released into the rivers and oceans can cause a threat to both human health and the environment.



Human health
According to GESAMP (2001), contamination of the coastal marine environment by sewage leads to significant numbers of infectious diseases linked to bathing and swimming in marine waters and to the consumption of seafood. Human exposures to toxins associated with algae blooms also impose significant risks.

Most illnesses are caused by pathogens, which are biological/infectious agents that cause diseases or illnesses (Wikipedia Pathogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). They cause a wide variety of acute illnesses including diarrhoea, cholera, dysentery, typhoid, and hepatitis A. Pathogenic bacteria can survive in the sea from a few days to several weeks; viruses can survive in water, fish or shellfish for several months while the hepatitis virus can remain viable in the sea for over a year (GESAMP 2001).

Depending on its source and collection methods, sewage may also contain a range of chemicals and specialized wastes including industrial chemicals, nutrients such as nitrates and phosphates, heavy metals, pharmaceuticals, medical wastes and oils and greases. These result in additional threats to human health."
Wastewater, Sewage and Sanitation — Caribbean Environment Programme

Is just one boat dangerous, maybe not, several boats over years, even with a dilution factor, if you knew someone had just dumped going through a area and that person had hepatitis, or typhoid, or other things would you fish there, the problem is you don't know. Like I say I am in the pump out business but I am not advocating mandatory pump out by a service person. But if you "have a choice" to use a pump out station please do.

So since a few people are breaking the law, a good solution is to treat everyone like criminals and force them to flush dye tablets?

Anyone see anything wrong with that policy?

rwidman said:

So since a few people are breaking the law, a good solution is to treat everyone like criminals and force them to flush dye tablets?

Anyone see anything wrong with that policy?

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I agree with you Ron, I see lots wrong with this misguided policy or is it a proposal?
Bill

rwidman said:

So since a few people are breaking the law, a good solution is to treat everyone like criminals and force them to flush dye tablets?

Anyone see anything wrong with that policy?

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Yeah, unless it is a NDZ, as long as you are legal there should be no reason for it.

Moonstruck said:

Yeah, unless it is a NDZ, as long as you are legal there should be no reason for it.

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Even if it's a NDZ why would they assume boats never move? In my case if I could travel through the marsh I would be 1 mile away from a treated discharge zone in other words out of the NDZ. Boats are transient meaning they are meant to move not sit a dock their entire life.
Bill