One or two MFDs?

Billylll said:

That's almost laughable I was born at night not last night FF. So where do you think I'm cruising in the Bayou backwaters? Where do they post them NTM's for gator nets? Chute-em-in dah-ead Junior?
Bright light is just what every boater needs at night "night blindness".
Bill

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Actually a good searchlight for running high speed at night in the NJ Intracoastal (which makes the Norfolk to Key West run look like a superhighway for convenience) is what I prefer over EVERY (including NV and FLIR) device out there.

I run 20-22 knots all the time and a good spotlight is the only thing that will keep you in the channel running at speed...

At 6.3 knots that I cruise in my trawler...almost all of it is just extra money spent and nice.... but ....far from needed to navigate at night if you have basic skills.

I'm glad you are comfortable running art 20-22 knots on the Jersey ICW at night. I would never run at that speed. All it takes is a pair of kids in a canoe out having fun you hit them, and you are up on manslaughter charges in this State. I find using a spotlight makes it hard or almost impossible for my eyes to recover enough to see much after it's turned off. It can also blind other vessels it's directed at.
Bill

Billylll said:

I'm glad you are comfortable running art 20-22 knots on the Jersey ICW at night. I would never run at that speed. All it takes is a pair of kids in a canoe out having fun you hit them, and you are up on manslaughter charges in this State. I find using a spotlight makes it hard or almost impossible for my eyes to recover enough to see much after it's turned off. It can also blind other vessels it's directed at.
Bill

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That's where may years of commercial experience comes in...as well as good use of a spotlight...neither is dangerous or ruins night vision anymore than all the shore lighting.

....and no you are not automatically up on manslaughter charges because a couple of kids were in the wrong by not showing a white lite in time..

Assignment of blame in Admiralty law and the NJ Superior Court prosecutors office putting up or throwing manslaughter charges in front of a grand jury are two entirely different things. Can you show me where I said it would "automatically" result in charges? That's from my many years of being a criminal investigator.
As I previously mentioned I would not operate a vessel that way my eyes and most people's vision wouldn't recover from turning a spotlight on and off.
Bill

Negligence would still have to be proven to a degree....and my experience as an on the water pro for 35 years suggests it would be a huge stretch to convict if the kids were clearly at fault under admiralty or state boating safety law.

Besides after 12 seasons of running assistance towing after dark....I have yet to see kids on the ICW in a canoe after dark anyway....I'm more likely to get hit by a meteorite.

The whole point of using something Neanderthal like a searchight to stay in the channel and keep from running things over I trust versus light blooms and washouts from using electronics that I helped pioneer in the USCG...not use occasionally pleasure cruising.

You do understand because of your professional carrier you would be held to a higher standard than a recreational boater?
Wow we must live in another State because here in Little Egg this is a nightly occurance behind LBI.
Bill

Billylll said:

You do understand because of your professional carrier you would be held to a higher standard then a recreational boater?
Bill

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More than you can imagine.....and I live to those standards...

The USCG would probably be the stickler when doing the investigation...but no mater what...you still have to find the negligence and apportion the blame.

What I do is an industry standard and we live to a given set of rules and professionalsm.

Last year/year before....In Norfolk an assistance towing captain ran into a boat near a bridge and killed a kid.

When all was said and done..the captain and franchise were absolved both in criminal and civil court because of due diligence.

Professionalism cuts both ways...held to a higher standard and when you meet it...the rec guy is toast usually for being clueless. Thankfully many here on TF aren't clueless and hold themselves to higher standards.

Gizmos are only part of the picture...they too can be useful or demons...depends on a few things. And I have done both...boats and helicopters with Korean War vintage tech and state of the art tech....people still manage to kill themselves and others with both.

angus99 said:

For the short term, I bought a Garmin 7212 for the flybridge.

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You'll like it. I have a 7212 on my flybridge too. I think it's a better idea to go with the 7 series today than the 6. The 7 removes the buttons and gives the space to a larger screen. You'll love the larger screen. Buttons just aren't needed today - I brought out 2 Garmin user-interface engineers over the winter into rough conditions to test that (they thought buttons would be easier to use in rough weather). By the end of the experiments in 5-8 foot waves head on, everyone agreed that going all touch is a much better way to go especially if the software can resize soft buttons if needed. Even using their existing single-size soft buttons, touch was appropriate and easy in the conditions.

I'm not going to debate if a spotlight is a low or high tech gizmo and that your eye's somehow defy what most people's eyes do when exposed to on and off light in darkness.
It's silly but USCG or more than likely the NJ State Police marine accident investigation unit and the media (channel 40) and the Philadelphia affiliates would have anyone running 20-22 knots at night painted as a cowboy. After all attorney's cost nothing for the State but to defend yourself what do you think the cost would be?
As I said if you are comfortable doing that go for it, I know my limitations. You must be some kind of super human captain, good for you!
Bill

Billylll said:

You do understand because of your professional carrier you would be held to a higher standard than a recreational boater?
Wow we must live in another State because here in Little Egg this is a nightly occurance behind LBI.
Bill

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We live in a different world...I'm out there all the time (on the ICW) and I seriously doubt you are out there as much. I have good friends in Brant Beach so I know the area well.

Lagoons and side creeks where kids are out swimming, kayaking, canoeing, etc..etc...is different. No one is suggesting 20+ knots there...where I'm running (where trawlers would be anyhow)...it would be supremely stupid and the courts would agree for the above activities to be taking place there.

I am friendly with just about every State Marine Policeman that plies the same waters as I and they all agree. I have helped Charter and Head Boat captains defend themselves when rec boaters have tried to imply the pros were doing something wrong where it was obviously the inexperience of the rec boater. All have had charges dropped before even court dates assigned.

The real point is using tools and experience that works for you...gizmos are great..but I have also seen their limitations.

Would I love FLIR on my trawler???? You bet... but the cost versus gain just isn't there for me. For others with different habit patters, experience or limitations?....it's probably a lifesaver...but it isn't necessarily that for those who are good at the basics.

Billylll said:

I'm not going to debate if a spotlight is a low or high tech gizmo and that your eye's somehow defy what most people's eyes do when exposed to on and off light in darkness.
It's silly but USCG or more than likely the NJ State Police marine accident investigation unit and the media (channel 40) and the Philadelphia affiliates would have anyone running 20-22 knots at night painted as a cowboy. After all attorney's cost nothing for the State but to defend yourself what do you think the cost would be?
As I said if you are comfortable doing that go for it, I know my limitations. You must be some kind of super human captain, good for you!
Bill

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No...as I said.... it's a standard that I live to... no super captain...just one of the gang that I work with. No cowboy as it is common for weekend warriors to do the same without the experience and training....they would be crucified much quicker...but you are correct that legal battle are a place where everyone loses to a degree. I can't live my life worrying about something that could happen to even someone who follows protocol.

And you are right...every man has to know his limitations and I don't expect that 200 hr / year boater to be proficient at anything but what they are comfortable with..... That's EXACTLY why gizmos supplementing basic skills have proven through the years to be a slippery slope.

That's it....too far away from OP and whether 2 MFDs are the ticket....as posted by several...there's many high and low tech ways to skin a cat...and travelling the ICW doesn't demand much if you are just along for the ride.

So I got to visit my boat today for the first time as the owner. (Stella's in Florida; I'm in PA.) Spent a wonderful afternoon and evening getting to know my way around and planning the install. What a great feeling!

My wife wanted to make the trip, but had ACL surgery last week and isn't up to travel yet. I've been sending her dozens of pictures. Tomorrow, I'll install the 7212 and sit back with a glass of wine and contemplate how good it is to be alive.

ActiveCaptain said:

You'll like it. I have a 7212 on my flybridge too. I think it's a better idea to go with the 7 series today than the 6.

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I agree, Jeff. I got to mess with a couple of 7215s on a boat on the Chesapeake two weeks ago and they're great systems. Good fish finders, too.

angus99 said:

So I got to visit my boat today for the first time as the owner. (Stella's in Florida; I'm in PA.) Spent a wonderful afternoon and evening getting to know my way around and planning the install. What a great feeling!

My wife wanted to make the trip, but had ACL surgery last week and isn't up to travel yet. I've been sending her dozens of pictures. Tomorrow, I'll install the 7212 and sit back with a glass of wine and contemplate how good it is to be alive.

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..best wishes for both of you!!!

For night running of course radar is a very good thing. However, I have found my best aid in anything but limited visibility is a good set of light gathering binoculars.

20-22 knots on the ICW at night sounds pretty negligent to me, spotlight or not. The few times I run in the dark (usually just before sunrise to get an early start), I run at four or five knots or so. Not so fast that I can't stop in the distance I can see ahead of the boat.

It may just be a southeast thing, but the waterways where I boat are littered with crab pot floats. Hit one and there's a good chance the line will get tangled in your prop and require a tow and a diver. Avoiding black crab pot floats at night is difficult even at four knots. Impossible at twenty knots.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

I installed the Garmin MFD, GPS antenna and NMEA network today. Ran out of time before I could get it hooked to power. The hardest part was fishing the NMEA cable through the radar arch to the starboard side of the flybridge console. The antenna replaces an old Magellan unit on the port side of the arch, which let me avoid more holes in the boat. Also, I have a thing about leaving old wires and inoperative stuff all over the place.

So, the answer to the question I originally posed (for me) is one MFD . . . for now.

It looks like a nice installation. Garmin's a system that is easy to add MFD's to and NMEA2000 devices. It also works very well with other manufactures NMEA2000 devices like MareTron or Lowrance.
Bill

Billylll said:

Not exactly true MFD's you might want to look at using a pair of Garmin 741xs units. However the Radar will only work off one display. Radar data is not sent over the NMEA2000 network. I guess you could run a spare Garmin network cable (it's shielded CAT5 cross-over cable) leaving a jack at either location? Any other NMEA2000 sensors like depth, heading, wind, AIS or temperatures would be available at both displays. Also the 741xs supports WiFi. Perhaps one 740s and one 741xs which is what I'm doing with my Gulfstar.
Bill

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psneeld said:

Actually a good searchlight for running high speed at night in the NJ Intracoastal (which makes the Norfolk to Key West run look like a superhighway for convenience) is what I prefer over EVERY (including NV and FLIR) device out there.

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We prefer both. We have FLIR on top of everything else. But several years ago we joined friends on the TN river and then the TN Tom. We were held up locking at some point and proceeding in the dark. We locked with a couple of tows. Then as we were faster they assisted us in passing and seeing ahead. We had a normal spotlight. They shined their huge searchlight's ahead for us and it was incredible. At that point we decided our boats would have such. People laugh at the huge commercial type search lights on just regular recreational boats. But the difference it can make, makes it more than worth it to us. They guys who use the waterways professionally use them so we do as well.

BandB said:

We prefer both. We have FLIR on top of everything else. But several years ago we joined friends on the TN river and then the TN Tom. We were held up locking at some point and proceeding in the dark. We locked with a couple of tows. Then as we were faster they assisted us in passing and seeing ahead. We had a normal spotlight. They shined their huge searchlight's ahead for us and it was incredible. At that point we decided our boats would have such. People laugh at the huge commercial type search lights on just regular recreational boats. But the difference it can make, makes it more than worth it to us. They guys who use the waterways professionally use them so we do as well.

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Thank you...hard to argue with some amateurs who only know a piece of the pie...searchlights aren't always useful..but in some instances...they can't be beat and don't destroy nigh vision if you know how to use them...despite what some may think....as seen in your example.

psneeld said:

Thank you...hard to argue with some amateurs who only know a piece of the pie...searchlights aren't always useful..but in some instances...they can't be beat and don't destroy nigh vision if you know how to use them...despite what some may think....as seen in your example.

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We freely admit to having more electronics, more light, and in general more safety equipment than we hope to ever need. Much of it we rarely use. But when that time comes. And I recall when the tow driver used the searchlight, my wife nearly screamed "I want one of those freaking lights." Now understand our only boating at that time was on a lake and our boat a 30' bowrider. So was a few years before we had such a light. Would night vision have done the same, don't know because at that time had never seen it on a boat.

Hopefully all choose the equipment they need and that works for them while also understanding it's limitations as well as our own personal limitations using it.

BandB said:

We freely admit to having more electronics, more light, and in general more safety equipment than we hope to ever need. Much of it we rarely use. But when that time comes. And I recall when the tow driver used the searchlight, my wife nearly screamed "I want one of those freaking lights." Now understand our only boating at that time was on a lake and our boat a 30' bowrider. So was a few years before we had such a light. Would night vision have done the same, don't know because at that time had never seen it on a boat.



Hopefully all choose the equipment they need and that works for them while also understanding it's limitations as well as our own personal limitations using it.

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Just curious what brand did you go with, Carlisle & Finch?

N4712 said:

Just curious what brand did you go with, Carlisle & Finch?

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Yes. They are the only high wattage xenon models we really found. Their joystick controls are great. Their quality is just very impressive all around.

One product they have now too which is intriguing is a Nightfinder which has the search light and the night vision camera on the same base. One of the things that is designed for is piracy defense too on large commercial boats. Mount Nightfinder's and they detect the danger, then because they're already focused on the danger, you turn the search light on and blind them with the beam of light. Navy vessels are mounting one bow and one stern then using hand held portable lights as well.

We don't normally travel much at night but in June and July we will be traveling a total of nine overnight trips. That will be our first time to perhaps need the light. We've only tested it so far.

It's nice to be called an amateur in fact I am an amateur radio operator my call sign is AA2UK. I think the amateur move is running the Jersey ICW at night at 20-22knots.
Not a professional move in my opinion it looks like I'm not alone.
Bill

Professionals get paid to do something and are held to certain standards...people who don't get paid for money are "amatuers" although the Olympic games sure have clouded the issue.

It's only a derogatory term if taken that way.....I stay out of the detailed electronic discussions that the "pros" on here often have because it's out of my league.

It's comical when other's venture into mine.

psneeld said:

Professionals get paid to do something and are held to certain standards...people who don't get paid for money are "amatuers" although the Olympic games sure have clouded the issue.

It's only a derogatory term if taken that way.....I stay out of the detailed electronic discussions that the "pros" on here often have because it's out of my league.

It's comical when other's venture into mine.

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Who ventured into your world? A simple observation and suggestion is hardly venturing into someone's perceived world.
Peace,
Bill

Billylll said:

I think the amateur move is running the Jersey ICW at night at 20-22knots.
Not a professional move in my opinion it looks like I'm not alone.
Bill

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I would have agreed with you at one time. However, having gotten certain equipment I now would have to admit that while I still wouldn't choose personally to do it, I do believe someone with proper equipment, proper experience, and proper lookout could run the ICW at those speeds at night. On a clear night I can use night vision and a search light on top of regular radar and even sonic although sonic doesn't do anything much at those speeds. But using night vision, a commercial level search light, and radar, with an experienced captain and another looking out, your vision on a clear night is as clear as during day. In fact, it might be a little better as there is no sun glare.

I don't know his complete setup and haven't been on his boat so I can't pass judgement on it. But I believe my boat would be very safe in those conditions. Oh and for the others running around in the dark, we would be outlined with blue LED lights in addition to the regular navigation lights. Again, I don't plan on running that speed in the ICW, but I do believe he can do so safely if set up as my boat is. Now this is a clear night. A foggy night is a different story, just as fog during the day is.

What, unless your ex USCG and have a professional captains license you are depending on your electronics too much and you have no business running at that speed. I'm just beating another member's response to your post! I can run between the islands behind LBI and the sticks into Tuckerton Creek at those speeds in my Mainship but I wouldn't do it. I guess by my response I must have done it at least once or how would I know it can be done?
Bill