Merged:Northern Yacht/Oops

eyschulman said:

Maybe its all about the wrong anchor and it being placed too high. Yes strange thingy on bow or are we looking at roof line of boat behind and an unpainted area around thrust-er??

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Yeah, it's dangerous to oversize a Rocna. The rotating torque can be quite strong.

A truly tragic event for everyone involved and I look forward to reading the U.S.C.G report, findings and conclusions. I know its fun to speculate on just what went wrong but i think its to early and the information is still to limited to draw any kind of conclusions.


SAF

healhustler said:

I can see where this thread is heading and I must interject that there hasn't been a single case of a KK Manatee capsizing at launch!

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Too funny, Larry. I guess a Manatee floats on the same principles that allow a helicopter to fly. As a helicopter is so ugly that the earth repels it, so does the sea repel the Manatee!

Sorry buddy....you fed me the line. I just couldn't resist.

I owe every Manatee owner on this forum a beer when I meet them. Just present a copy o this post to redeem your cold beverage.

FlyWright said:

Too funny, Larry. I guess a Manatee floats on the same principles that allow a helicopter to fly. As a helicopter is so ugly that the earth repels it, so does the sea repel the Manatee!

Sorry buddy....you fed me the line. I just couldn't resist.

I owe every Manatee owner on this forum a beer when I meet them. Just present a copy o this post to redeem your cold beverage.

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I suppose I am in the beer owing status as well as I once quipped "In my opinion, the Krogen Manatee is the most appropriately named recreational vessel ever built."

That said if the owner of Blood Baron is who I think it is, then it too was appropriately named.

I just wanted to subscribe and get the facts eventually....

I like the idea of a long skinny boat. But I wouldn't add a palace for a hired Captain at the top. I'll self drive and live lower down. My dream boat has one of those 3 ton Gardner 18 litre engines that idle at 300rpm and a huge AGM house bank as low as possible. If I need ballast it has to be the type that earns its keep.

I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.

Third-Reef said:

I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.

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Laid over on it's side is a bit difficult to define. Most boats are self righting to a degree. But when they cross that line in a couple of different ways, then that is compromised. If they take on water that can either help or hinder. The real issue becomes if they cross that 90 degree line. As they approach that point much depends on the weight, the center of gravity, the amount of ballast. Ballast isn't just that put in as such, but equipment, engines, fuel, water. With any boat, once it crosses a tilt line it's going to go the rest of the way over. Now where that line is drawn is a matter of the stability of the boat. Without an accident of some sort occurring or some extremely bad conditions you'll never reach that point on most boats.

However, take an incomplete boat. Take a sailboat with full sails but then take away the keel. Take a power boat and remove all equipment in the lower level while adding to the top side. Take an expedition boat designed for a lot of ballast and remove it. Now you have not just the issue of stability as the finished boat would be, but a much worse situation. There are many boats that given an empty hull and just the superstructure would not be stable. But then periodically one comes across that even with the engines, equipment and designed ballast never reaches a satisfactory level of stability.

So for practical purposes your boat has virtually no risk of being tilted over. Built another thirty foot structure on top however and remove all equipment, all keel, all running gear, all engines, fuel and water, and it would be much less stable.

I've seen larger boats too very dependent on fuel and water. I recall one that had to design the side fuel tanks to flow equally into a day tank in the middle to be stable. It was to me unsatisfactory to have that slim tolerance. A well designed boat is going to remain stable regardless of such factors.

Now, go to the extreme of stability. Elling just ran demonstrations on their boat as it's self righting.

http://elling360.com/

Third-Reef said:

I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.

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All boats are not created equal nor are they un- tampered with after initial launch. Boats that get certification for open ocean use usually have very good stability and self righting test scores. Many other boats vary considerably in these abilities and I believe many are never tested. Most sail boats excel in righting ability relative to power boats rather obvious with keels and ballast, but even then there is often a point of no return. the great dangers for boats with marginal stability occurs with overloading-broaching in inlets-broaching in rapids. Boats broach and people die every year from these causes. No mater what your boat stability it is wise to avoid overloading and potential broaching. If you really want to know how stable your boat is there are standard tests which can be preformed at the dock obviously most don't bother with this. The builder may have some hard # information but I would not bet on it.

With a boat in this range, designed for it's intended use of circumnavigation, I would have expected getting it classed would have been a requirement, whether ABS, Lloyd's or Veritas. They would require extensive stability testing including incline. Unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem. I'll give the reason.

Let's say, sale includes a guarantee of Veritas unlimited navigation. Boat is finished. By this time the buyer has paid 90-95% of price so in excess of the cost to build. Boat fails. Buyer says fix. Builder says no, you have to take it as is. Buyer says I refuse, give me my money back. Builder says no. Buyer says I'll sue you. Builder says go ahead. Buyer pays balance, takes boat, gets surveyed, sues for all deficiencies. Buyer wins. Builder declares bankruptcy.

Better pick your architect, builder, manager, surveyor, and lawyer drawing up the contract very carefully. Of you'll find yourself having paid a lot of money and still no boat.

Third-Reef said:

I am kind of new to power boats having come from the blowboat world. I had always assumed that if my boat (sail boat and current Trawler style Nova) was laid over on it side it would stand back up. Is this not true? Would my Nova 36 lay over and stay there? Of course this is assuming that it does not fill with water or is being held down by breaking waves.

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If your boat was laid over on it's side..like 90 percent of the boats represented here by TF members...you better have a good liferaft, dingy or be able to tread water in tough conditions.

Unlike the textbook or brochure stability numbers...the weather/sea that it would take to lay your boat over may just overwhelm you and the boat to the point of no return over the long run.

A single broach in a breaking inlet is one thing...getting knocked down repeatedly in storm conditions is a completely different monster. Most of our boats, the windows would get blown out and rapid downflooding would occur. If the windows held some...I think my whole house structure would fail based on the way it was constructed and the way it has deteriorated through the years.

I have seen many vessel sink in front of me while hovering nearby....stability is only a piece of the seaworthiness puzzle despite what you may read or hear from much of the boating world...they haven't "been there" to see the reality of how boats survive or not..

Generally (AFAIK) classification societies deal with structure and equipment, and the flag state imposes stability standards. Lloyds, ABS, etc have no stability standards. Hence somewhere back up the thread Mr. Roddan (the NA) states the boat (Baden) complies with CFR..xxxxx. As the US has no pleasure boat stability standard for this sized vessel, I assume that is a commercial standard.

So far, in North America, I have not seen an insurance company ask about stability. They want a survey, surveyors are not trained to assess stability.

After watching the launch video, I think it's safe to say that the boat was not fully ballasted. Either that or the engineers seriously screwed up the calculations, but I think partial ballasting is a much more likely answer. Based on how loaded the transport gear was, it's easy to see how the yard would be motivated to only install minimal ballast for the trip down to the water.

It's also pretty clear that the boat had a good heal to it before it got fully in the water, probably because it shifted on the dollies, or there was some collapse of a dolly. Once in the water, that heal was more than the lightly ballasted boat could recover from, and over she went.

I've venture that had the boat been fully upright throughout the launch, she would have stayed upright, they would have completed ballasting, and she would have been fine. But clearly all it took was a relatively modest heal to knock her down and keep her down, and the launch process provided just that.

Well, the boat is now midway between Fidalgo and Anacortes Marina. Being taken by barge and crane combo to a commercial landing so a larger crane can lift it out. Probably waiting for high tide which is 6 hours away still. Coast Guard required both stability test (while still in sling, as it still is) and an approved transport plan.

Baden being towed out of
Fidalgo Marina yesterday afternoon.

Regardless of state of completion, a bit of a sad photo watching it being towed and held upright by a crane as it makes it's way. The big boat that couldn't? It looks so lifeless, so helpless. And it reflects so much. Is it on it's way to it's graveyard? Will it find itself resurrected at some point? By now it should have reached it's destination. Soon to be removed from the water. Water it was not ready for. Will it ever actually get to be on that water under it's own power?

Dashed are many dreams. Those of it's purchaser join the others waiting on boats sitting in the builder's yard. Join the former employees. Join those who hoped one day to own one.

She does look tall but no taller than the pride of Baltimore. She went down in 60 seconds when pressed over by a microburst. One hatch was left open and the down flooding was not survivable. She righted herself as she sank and went to the bottom with all her sails still flying. That guy in the er needing to be taken out through the waterline porthole makes me think the er doors were submerged. Where did all that water come from?


Via iPhone.

BandB said:

Regardless of state of completion, a bit of a sad photo watching it being towed and held upright by a crane as it makes it's way. The big boat that couldn't? It looks so lifeless, so helpless. And it reflects so much. Is it on it's way to it's graveyard? Will it find itself resurrected at some point? By now it should have reached it's destination. Soon to be removed from the water. Water it was not ready for. Will it ever actually get to be on that water under it's own power?

Dashed are many dreams. Those of it's purchaser join the others waiting on boats sitting in the builder's yard. Join the former employees. Join those who hoped one day to own one.

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oh good god... don't be such a sap..

your more reflective than the boat is on the water..

it's just a damn boat with issues.. move on

HOLLYWOOD

cafesport said:

Where did all that water come from?


Via iPhone.

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To be determined, but among many possibilities, the Engine Room doors were open. Then what about those silly windows down almost at the water line?

hollywood8118 said:

oh good god... don't be such a sap..

your more reflective than the boat is on the water..

it's just a damn boat with issues.. move on

HOLLYWOOD

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Say that to the buyer. Or the buyer of the others not completed.

I like these windows even better!!! And this boat most likely passed USCG inspection...

Laz hatch?


Via iPhone.

BandB said:

Say that to the buyer. Or the buyer of the others not completed.

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my comment had nothing to do with the boat
HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

oh good god... don't be such a sap..

your more reflective than the boat is on the water..

it's just a damn boat with issues.. move on

HOLLYWOOD

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psneeld said:

I like these windows even better!!! And this boat most likely passed USCG inspection...

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Most likely did. Or glass bottom boats like Silver Springs. Odd though that those windows are located differently than the norm on Northern Boats. Just glad there was one for the guy to get out.

The boat is now on land. Was moved to the barge dock just north of Anacortes marina by barge and crane combination and then hoisted to land. What the future holds for it nobody knows. Fidalgo marina back to normal. A lot of lawyers and court likely for many. There were four cases against One World (owner of Northern) in Superior Court before this. Not to be overlooked, this isn't the only boat in construction and not completed. One hasn't been worked on since last August supposedly.

Since the vessel can't stay upright without external assistance, this is now officially in von Hindenberg/Titanic/Tacoma Narrows fiasco land. Speculation on faulty launch technique, open ER doors, etc. don't mean much if the thing can't stay upright after launch with presumably all doors closed.

The question for me is how does one spend that many years and $ building a boat without anyone of the scores of people involved figuring out that it isn't a boat at all, just a very luxurious break water in the making? Clearly she's under ballasted, but how does that happen? Most of the ballast is fixed in the form of engines, batteries and presumably lead so how do you get so far off the calculations that she can't stay upright in a mill pond? I feel for all the people involved, but this should be studied as an example of just how effed up a project can get without anybody noticing until the Holy Sheet moment.

If I didn't know better, I'd say it had to be a government project.

Since everyone is in wild speculation mode here is my two cents: This has turned into a investigation and as such I am sure that no one wants to take any risks with changing the dynamics of the boat until the review is complete, hence the barge and crane move. Certainly if the experts need assistance any one of the many armchair naval architect's that have comment thus far will be contacted for consultation.

Bob Cofer said:

Since everyone is in wild speculation mode here is my two cents: This has turned into a investigation and as such I am sure that no one wants to take any risks with changing the dynamics of the boat until the review is complete, hence the barge and crane move. Certainly if the experts need assistance any one of the many armchair naval architect's that have comment thus far will be contacted for consultation.

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ksanders said:

The speculation continues...

I have a friend who works nearby in Anacortes in the boat business. Very close by.

He was there but is not part of the northern team. He was just there, it was a big deal in the small boat community.

He said that boat will never float.

He said yesterday they tried to release the straps and the boat tried to turn turtle again.

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One does not need to be a naval architect, armchair or otherwise, to conclude that since the vessel began to roll over when the slings holding her upright were lowered that there is a bit of a stability problem.

Stuff happens:

And yes, SNCF is 100% French government owned company.



The French train operator SNCF has discovered that 2,000 new trains it ordered at a cost of 15bn euros ($20.5bn; £12.1bn) are too wide for many regional platforms.

The BBC's Christian Fraser in Paris says that it is an embarrassing blunder that has so far cost the rail operator over 50m euros ($68.4m; £40.6m).



Construction work has already started to reconfigure station platforms.

The work will allow new trains room to pass through. But officials say that there are still 1,000 platforms to be adjusted.


The error seems to have happened because the national rail operator RFF gave the wrong dimensions to train company SNCF.

Our correspondent says that they measured platforms built less than 30 years ago, overlooking the fact that many of France's regional platforms were built more than 50 years ago when trains were a little slimmer.

The platform edges are too close to the tracks in some stations which means the trains cannot get in, officials say.

BBC News - French red faces over trains that are 'too wide'

Now that's funny!