One or two MFDs?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. (And I have a sense this is a pretty ignorant question.)

When we actually start using our boat, I expect to use the fly bridge as our principal helm. I want a large MFD up there on a NEMA network with inputs from depth, radar, cameras, etc.

I have a hard time justifying another $5K +/- for a similar setup for the lower helm, which we're only likely to use 20 percent of the time or less. Still, I want modern equipment on both stations.

The chart plotter on my fishing boat is dead easy to install and remove. Is it possible to share a single MFD between two helm stations on a network . . . moving it back and forth as needed?

(Before I buy anything, I'll wait and see if my estimates for time usage hold true.)

Thnx.

If the MFD your planning to buy to buy has a Video out, you could always put a repeater display.

What MFD do you currently use at the lower help?
Bill

Raymarine- install the hardware on the flybridge, and use an iPad as a 2nd station at the lower helm.

Pau Hana said:

Raymarine- install the hardware on the flybridge, and use an iPad as a 2nd station at the lower helm.

Click to expand...

You can also do that with Garmin and Simrad.

Or buy a black box unit, and run two displays (the ph display can be an inexpensive computer monitor, but make sure it has good dimming capabilities for night use) with two controllers. Better yet, have two black boxes for redundancy, and have two screens (at least) at each station.

My take on this is that your MFD represents a single point of failure of a critical system.

Have two of them.

Actually look around your boat and think about things...

Look at a piece of equipment and think about what you'd do if it malfunctioned today.

I'm not saying that you need redundant everything. What I am saying is that you need to evaluate your boat for system outage risks, then make decisions based on the cost and effort of mitigating those risks.

Some risks you'll decide you can live with, some you'll decide you cant.

Thanks, all. To clarify, electronic we're the weak point of an otherwise beautifully maintained boat. She currently has an ancient hand-held Garmin in a cradle and no network. So I'll be building from the bottom up.

Backup plan would be a 3G iPad with Blue Charts and AC installed and tested on a charter we did last year. Second and third backups would be the ancient Garmin and iPhones along with paper charts.

angus99 said:

........ Is it possible to share a single MFD between two helm stations on a network . . . moving it back and forth as needed?.

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Anything is possible, but consider this - You're motoring along enjoying the view on the flybridge when is suddenly starts pouring down rain. Do you want to be able to just climb down the ladder and run the boat from the lower helm or do you want to have do disconnect your MFD, carry it down with you, plug it in and wait for it to boot and detect the satellites before you can use it again?

I assume you've spent a lot on your boat, why not invest a bit more for the best navigation system?

angus99 said:

Thanks, all. To clarify, electronic we're the weak point of an otherwise beautifully maintained boat. She currently has an ancient hand-held Garmin in a cradle and no network. So I'll be building from the bottom up.



Backup plan would be a 3G iPad with Blue Charts and AC installed and tested on a charter we did last year. Second and third backups would be the ancient Garmin and iPhones along with paper charts.

Click to expand...

I think your best bet is to go with a Simrad black box. You can have up to two displays and switch between them, all you'd have to do is get the displays and another controller for the black box. And of course all the little Simnet parts, also think it's needs a gps. Also the black box has to video inputs.

N4712 said:

I think your best bet is to go with a Simrad black box. You can have up to two displays and switch between them, all you'd have to do is get the displays and another controller for the black box. And of course all the little Simnet parts, also think it's needs a gps. Also the black box has to video inputs.
View attachment 29930View attachment 29931

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Although I'm a fan of Simrad, I think a black-box and two monitors will end up costing more than two MFDs. The NSO black box is about $4500, but you will pay that again for each monitor, especially the fly bridge where a full sunlight visible, water proof unit is likely required. Marine monitors are just stupid expensive. And with two MFDs, you have some redundancy in case one fails.

N4712 said:

I think your best bet is to go with a Simrad black box. You can have up to two displays and switch between them, all you'd have to do is get the displays and another controller for the black box. And of course all the little Simnet parts, also think it's needs a gps. Also the black box has to video inputs.
View attachment 29930View attachment 29931

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Thanks, I'll look into this. Loved the Simrad MFD on the Krogen we chartered. I worry a little about some recent threads on factory support for Simrad models once they're out of production.

Not exactly true MFD's you might want to look at using a pair of Garmin 741xs units. However the Radar will only work off one display. Radar data is not sent over the NMEA2000 network. I guess you could run a spare Garmin network cable (it's shielded CAT5 cross-over cable) leaving a jack at either location? Any other NMEA2000 sensors like depth, heading, wind, AIS or temperatures would be available at both displays. Also the 741xs supports WiFi. Perhaps one 740s and one 741xs which is what I'm doing with my Gulfstar.
Bill

I have the Raymarine C97 on the flybridge and connect to my iPad that I use on the lower helm. You need a router to do this. I installed the rogue wave wifi booster with a netgear router.

Here is the RAM mount on the lower helm.

Arcticspud said:

I have the Raymarine C97 on the flybridge and connect to my iPad that I use on the lower helm. You need a router to do this. I installed the rogue wave wifi booster with a netgear router.

Here is the RAM mount on the lower helm. View attachment 29935

Click to expand...

You should be able to do this without a router-either thru the built in Bluetooth or wifi.

My mistake. You are correct as the Raymarine MFDs are Bluetooth and wifi and don't need the router.

It is still a nice system. You can use your iPad with the navionics app to create routes and sync them with the plotter.

Arcticspud said:

My mistake. You are correct as the Raymarine MFDs are Bluetooth and wifi and don't need the router.

It is still a nice system. You can use your iPad with the navionics app to create routes and sync them with the plotter.

Click to expand...

You can do the same (connect via WiFi) with any of the newer (xs) model Garmins. They have great factory support. If you have internet access you simply download the updates to an SD memory card load it in the plotter and it updates everything in the Garmin network or the NMEA2000 network.
I've only had one equipment issue with Garmin when they 1st came out with the GMR24HD Radar assembly they had problems. The factory sent me a replacement unit after software patches didn't work.
Bill

I have 2 Garmin MFDs side by side on the flybridge. When I an underway and one is tracking me the other can be used to look ahead or plan my next move. A lot of the time it is cycling between my engine room cameras and my rear view camera. I thoroughly appreciate the second MFD

My take is: two similar Simrad MFD's - possibly with the Simrad remote control panel as shown previously.

Different displays or MFD's is complicating things too much due to different settings, screens, options etc.

I would ensure that the fly bridge MFD could be disconnected / removed -----there are thugs all over the world and a MFD would be very tempting for some people....

I have garmin 4212 on my upper helm that came from prior owner. I am frugal. There was nothing at lower helm. Used to be radar head which was gone. Just finished removing old scanner and cable. New garmin radome 24xhd now In place. To create lower helm MFD and redundancy, I installed an Intel I5 NUC, with flat screen VGA. I can run PC Nav software of various kinds that is fed by USB GPS. But the cool part is running a long VGA cable from the 4212 to the monitor. Just choose input. It repeats 2x as large the 4212 display. I control it with the garmin RF remote control!!!! They helped me be frugal. Monitor cable and remote were less than $200.00. NUC and software less than 500.00. One app I run is Bluestacks android. Then I run my old navionics USA phone app on that. Plus I have the garmin app on my iPhone. So I am 3x redundant on gps. And have paper charts - the chart books I like very much. Photos are test of monitor next to 4212.

Still learning all the bells and whistles. . I still have to finish all the wiring and mounting but it all works. GRIN

And I still have the Droid with navionics on it so that is 4x redundant.

Two things.

1. Redundancy. Have it.

2. While you may only use the lower helm 20% of the time, is it adequate to be 80% safe? Also, that 20% may well be when conditions and visibility are their worst.

Thanks for the great post on the 4212. I have a 6212, 4212 and a 740s on my Mainship. I ended up getting a 740s and a 741xs. However it now looks like both plotters will reside at the lower helm. I'm about 90% that I am having the upper helm removed from my new to me Gulfstar 36.
I forgot the obvious that you can remote the 4200-7200 series MFD's video using a long VGA cable.
Thanks,
Bill

This is great info, but I'm afraid I need the 101-level.

denloe1, it looks like you're mirroring your upper helm 4212 on a larger flat screen at the lower helm and controlling it with a remote. Is that right?

Some additional questions:

Can you get full functionality, including radar, sonar and cameras that way?

Is there much noticeable lag on the remote?

Are you using any kind of NMEA network for other inputs or the proprietary Garmin network?

Will any Garmin (or comparable) MFD with remote function and a VGA-out port work?

Can I run any installed MFD charts on a setup like that?

Sorry to have so many questions. I'll check with manufacturer's sites as well and I've found a few good explanations on line, but I'm very interested in real-world experiences.

Thanks all!

denloe1 said:

I have garmin 4212 on my upper helm that came from prior owner. I am frugal. There was nothing at lower helm. Used to be radar head which was gone. Just finished removing old scanner and cable. New garmin radome 24xhd now In place. To create lower helm MFD and redundancy, I installed an Intel I5 NUC, with flat screen VGA. I can run PC Nav software of various kinds that is fed by USB GPS. But the cool part is running a long VGA cable from the 4212 to the monitor. Just choose input. It repeats 2x as large the 4212 display. I control it with the garmin RF remote control!!!! They helped me be frugal. View attachment 30038Monitor cable and remote were less than $200.00. NUC and software less than 500.00. One app I run is Bluestacks android. Then I run my old navionics USA phone app on that. Plus I have the garmin app on my iPhone. So I am 3x redundant on gps. And have paper charts - the chart books I like very much. Photos are test of monitor next to 4212.

Still learning all the bells and whistles. View attachment 30037. I still have to finish all the wiring and mounting but it all works. GRIN

Click to expand...

Nice- a good workable solution.

As the OP is building a new system from the ground up, I still say go with the newer tech and utilize the wireless capabilities in the latest MFDs. As I'm a big fan of Raymarine, I can speak to 2 ways I'd set the OP's boat up:

• System with 1 MFD: Put an e127 (which has a built in GPS antenna and sounder module) at the upper helm, and connect the radar array and transducer.
  
  Route the wiring for both NMEA 0183 channels into a connection block for AIS/autopilot applications.
  
  Route a basic SeaTalk NG/NMEA 2000 backbone into the vessel for future installations.
  
  Use an iPad, connected via the built in Raymarine wifi, for the lower station.
  
  
• System with 2 MFDs: Install an e125 at the upper station. Connect the radar to the upper unit. Put an e127 (which has the built in sounder module) at the lower helm, and connect the transducer to this unit. Connect the 2 MFDs with a Seatalk network cable, so the radar and sounder info can be shared between units. Designate the MFD you use most as the "master" unit, and install any charting chip there.
  
  At the master station, route the wiring for both NMEA 0183 channels into a connection block for AIS/autopilot applications.
  
  At the lower MFD, route a basic SeaTalk NG/NMEA 2000 backbone into the vessel for future installations.
  
  Use an iPad, connected via the built in Raymarine wifi, for route planning, anchor watch in the cabin, etc.

It's how I did my installation, and it works flawlessly.

Thank you, Peter! I'll check this out. Multiple options and just the connect-the-dots level I needed. Much-appreciated.

denloe1, it looks like you're mirroring your upper helm 4212 on a larger flat screen at the lower helm and controlling it with a remote. Is that right?

Yes

Some additional questions:



Can you get full functionality, including radar, sonar and cameras that way?



Yes it duplicates upper screen

Is there much noticeable lag on the remote?



Nope. Buttons work ok. Like tv.

Are you using any kind of NMEA network for other inputs or the proprietary Garmin network?



Yes I think my autopilot is fed from nmea backbone. GPS May come in that way. Need to chase all the wires.

Will any Garmin (or comparable) MFD with remote function and a VGA-out port work?



Yes it should.

Can I run any installed MFD charts on a setup like that?



Yes. Whatever is visible on the 4212 just repeats on VGA.

Sorry to have so many questions. I'll check with manufacturer's sites as well and I've found a few good explanations on line, but I'm very interested in real-world experiences.



Thanks all![/QUOTE]

Prioritizing the various budget items, and looking at how quickly electronics become obsolete, I went the route of 1 MFD that I can move to the upper or lower helm as needed. True, it takes a minute. But I don't see myself switching helms very often.

Redundancy? The old chartplotter and radar still work great, and the various laptops, tablets and cell phones we carry all have navigation software installed and kept current.

With the price, and pace of change, for today's electronics, I just couldn't justify buying two. No doubt in 2-3 years I'll want a new one anyway.

As far as electronics becoming obsolete especially Plotters or MFD's I can attest to this. When I was doing a serious re-fit of my Mainship 40SB in 2007-08 I decided that I would use Garmin. My initial order was a pair of 3210's and a 3206. Less than a year later the 4200 series plotters came out so I decided to leave the backup plotter the 3206 alone and replace the upper station with a 4210 and keep a 3210 below. Three months after doing this Garmin makes the 4200 series with NMEA2000. My model had no provisions for NMEA2000 only 0183, it stinks to be the 1st to purchase any initial release when it comes to marine navigation or communication gear. Well I decide I'll sell the previously purchased stuff to others in my marina. I order a pair of 4212's again leaving the 3206 in place. It was at that point that I built a starter NMEA2000 network. Then the 740 series came out and I decided to upgrade the 3206 to a 740s. Then the 6200-7200 series are released so one of the 4212's (at the helm) was replaced with a 6212. Now Garmin has the 8200 series MFD's and I'm building or re-fitting a new to me Gulfstar. So I decided I'm not getting all caught up in the constant upgrading of navigation MFD's and went with a new 741xs and a used 740s. That's what I'm going to use at the lower station because the upper helm is being removed. I went through something very similar with Garmins smaller 18" and 24" Radars (GMR20 thru GMR24HD) until I settled on a GMR18HD. Then Garmin came out with the VHF 200 but before that NMEA2000 radio was released I bought a pair of the only VHF NMEA2000 radios I was aware of the Lowrance LVR800. I think I went through 8 versions of everyone's VHF radio before I settled on a pair of the Garmin VHF 200 radios.
I won't even talk about AIS Class B transponders other than to say I am installing an AIS 600 on the Gulfstar.
Can everyone see how trying to keep everything updated quickly drains one's wallet?
I had a spare VHF 200 and purchased a used VHF 200 on E-Bay, they will be going in the Gulfstar.
If you allow yourself to get caught up in wanting the latest greatest you might end up never leaving the dock. Honestly the original pair of 3210's would be fine for my new re-do or makeover of the Gulfstar too bad I sold all the plotters and MFD's at serious discounts to my slip neighbors.
Bill

This all sounds really complex and cumbersome which leads to potential component failure. I have the Raymarine C97 chartplotter on my fly bridge and I have an iPad 3 in my lower helm. I have full functionality and control of the chartplotter via the free app I downloaded.

It is a simple and reliable system. I have used it in 200' visibility with the radar/chartplotter via the iPad. The other feature I really like is the ability to create routes on my iPad with the navionics app and than sync it to my chartplotter. Engage the autopilot and away I go.

I had a Garmin 5208 on my previous boat and likes it but the raymarine seems a little more robust and the HD radar is superior to the Garmin HD radar in my opinion.