Lower Helm Station

Peter B said:

... However, maybe I should add the rider, 'as long as your craft has good rear vision from down below'. ...

Click to expand...

Yes!

Billylll said:

I hve never owned a vessel with a lower helm. It's always been on my most wanted option list. I now own a Gulfstar 36 dual helm trawler. I'm going to run it from both helms for 2 weeks. I would really like to remove the upper helm which would lower the boat's center of gravity. I need the real estate for a large solar charging system and I would like to have 2 solar water panels to create and circulate hot water. I sure could use the additional room above for my various KVH domes, antennas and NMEA2000 sensors. In addition it would give me a safe place to install the AIR-X wind turbine.
Bill

Click to expand...

markpierce said:

Yes!

Click to expand...

Mark - I ask this very respectfully... You really feel that is good visabiity? How can you see to port rear - through the dink? Over the rear within 20 +/- feet of transom?

You ever spent much time piloting from a flying bridge?? Experiencing the 360 degree visability and elevated sight capability at the water in proximity?

Art said:

Mark - I ask this very respectfully... You really feel that is good visabiity? How can you see to port rear - through the dink?

Click to expand...

A couple of steps to port solves that problem. I'm usually going port to starboard to port, etcetera, pacing in the bridge.

markpierce said:

A couple of steps to port solves that problem. I'm usually going port to starboard to port, etcetera, pacing in the bridge.

Click to expand...

Mark - You must be toooo nervous to pilot from bridge! Pacing back and forth is NOT needed on a bridge!! :lol:

Unless maybe the boat is some 20' beam or wider...

Old pics, but you get the idea. Imagine a dorm fridge added to the aft port counter where the microwave is located.

Fwd Port:



Aft port:



Aft stbd:



Fwd Stbd:

Art said:

Mark - You must be toooo nervous to pilot from bridge! Pacing back and forth is NOT needed on a bridge!! :lol:

Unless maybe the boat is some 20' beam or wider...

Click to expand...

Not nervous. Need to keep blood flowing in the legs.

Those are old photos, Al. Show us the real/current thing. (FlyWright, Carqimez Coot, and Pineapple Girl.) Thanks to Mahalo Moi.

Found one...the rest of the view is unchanged.



Got an aft view from the Coot's helm?

Al, tell us about the woodie to starboard.

And yes, a helm upper or lower or both is a good thing to have so long as it is affixed to a boat.

sunchaser said:

Al, tell us about the woodie to starboard.

And yes, a helm upper or lower or both is a good thing to have so long as it is affixed to a boat.

Click to expand...

Sorry, Tom. That boat was in the slip next to FlyWright when I first looked at FlyWright. I was smitten and never noticed that woodie until looking at the photos.

Still giving us the oldies, aren't you Al?

Many boats actually need a elevated helm station due to poor location of lower helm. Then there are people who just enjoy the high life. I have no axe to grind with the FB. Just saying a well designed helm station low down works well and does not have the negative effects of increased motion wind-age danger climbing up and down, and often not so beautiful. My personal boat which was designed with good 360 visibility from the low primary helm as a major build priority demonstrates this. Note the large windows(not meant as a long distance off shore boat). Since I single hand this 51 ft. LOA vessel a lot in tight marinas I have added a mobile remote docking system. I can now walk anywhere on the boat or dock and control all drive and thrust-er elements and I think that trumps docking from a FB especially single handed.

Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie here and was following this thread.
There is a make of Motor Cruiser in the UK called Broom that doesn't fit a lower helm now at all to free up space in the saloon, other companies also offer it as an option.
We have experience of just a lower helm (Birchwood 33) which is good in rough water as the centre of gravity is a bit lower and in a communal area. Our other boat has both and if it's raining it's nice to pop down and helm from below but the fly bridge skipper tends to be more solo.
Different styles for different cruising areas seems to be the factor.

Irish Rambler said:

Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie here and was following this thread.
There is a make of Motor Cruiser in the UK called Broom that doesn't fit a lower helm now at all to free up space in the saloon, other companies also offer it as an option.
We have experience of just a lower helm (Birchwood 33) which is good in rough water as the centre of gravity is a bit lower and in a communal area. Our other boat has both and if it's raining it's nice to pop down and helm from below but the fly bridge skipper tends to be more solo.
Different styles for different cruising areas seems to be the factor.

Click to expand...

Some boats sacrifice the lower helms to have more space, especially galley and dining. Also to have a sitting area up front with a great view forward. One of our parameters was must have a lower helm too so eliminated those boats early. But it's strictly a matter of preference and style of use.

IMHO

1. If you don't have flying bridge then the question of having lower helm is irrelevant... duh!

2. I you do have a helm equipped flying bridge then the question of having a lower helm rests on two primary situations. A. Space taken (especially in smaller boats), and; B. Cost to install (in new or used boats).

There is currently a thread in Tollycraft forum reviewing costs to install lower helm in a mid 80’s 44' Tolly without one. A buyer’s decision apparently rests on capability of this factor. I'm sure that desire and its cost will be used as price negating tool. General agreement seems to rest between $10K to $20K depending on numerous factors of lower helm equipment levels and finished cabinet beauty, as well as out sourced labor or not.

Our 34' Fly bridge Tolly tri cabin's lower helm is well sequestered in forward salon, starboard corner. It uses little floor space and is a boat accoutrement I REALLY feel necessary for following reasons (great to place for hats and sunglasses too – lol): :lol:

I do bridge piloting 99.5%... But... I WANT a lower helm to utilize whenever desired or needed. I always start cold engines from lower helm so I can listen closely as they warm up (notice yellow key farbs in pict - they are always there when using boat). I also use lower helm whenever working on running engines/transmissions that rest under two easy access, huge, hinged hatches in salon sole. And, during that infrequent .05% of the time when weather becomes simply too abysmal to want to stay on bridge for piloting - the salon helm is simply great to stay warm and dry! Also, importantly, for immediately usable redundancy during special times that may require sudden safety measures!!!

Even though my boat’s flying bridge is very ample for piloting, and I love to do so 99.5% of the time, I feel it is virtually mandatory to have lower helm for reasons in paragraph just above.

Happy (enjoyable/safe/warm/comfortable) Piloting Daze! – Art

PS: BIG factor in this thread - - > Different Strokes for Different Folks, i.e. Whatever Makes You Happy!!

No lower helm reduces the utility of the boat to only fair weather use.

We have winter cruised our 90/90 in LI Sound and its a delight to sit cozy and quiet as the snow falls outside.

No worry about the fellow up wind having a fly weight anchor , he is home with the TV and his boat is mouldering sitting in some boat yard.

And of course those thunderstorms in season are far more fun being observed thru a Kent rotating window than squinting thru goggles in the oxygen tent .

Boats are pretty expensive to use only a fraction of the year.

Second that about winter cruising. Some of my most enjoyable trips involved winter running. No traffic. The colors are different. Often the wind is zero, rare on warmer days. Snow and ice on deck, but pilothouse is 75F via engine fed "bus heater".

It's amazing how much effect the "zero traffic" has on trip enjoyment.

Frozen dock lines are a particular PITA, though!!

If I had a Devlin like ey I'd not want a FB either. But I have a DeFever that was specifically designed for a very nice FB to provide outdoor living space. We can easily sit 10 people on the FB when at anchor or the dock. The sight lines from our lower helm are more than adequate too.

In the PNW the higher one is the better the log viewing, not to mention avoiding ice bergs when in places like Glacier Bay and Tracey Arm. Back East I note lobster and crab pot buoys are more viewable too from a higher perch.

The best vessel for lower helm sight lines I ever been on are the Dashew FPBs. They now extol the virtues of the newly designed fly bridge setups. Point being, if you have well thought out at helms at both locations you are really in nirvana.

Or like Twistedtree's new boat - upper, lower, port, starboard and stern. Sounds like a porno movie!

eyschulman said:

Many boats actually need a elevated helm station due to poor location of lower helm. Then there are people who just enjoy the high life. I have no axe to grind with the FB. Just saying a well designed helm station low down works well and does not have the negative effects of increased motion wind-age danger climbing up and down, and often not so beautiful. My personal boat which was designed with good 360 visibility from the low primary helm as a major build priority demonstrates this. Note the large windows(not meant as a long distance off shore boat). Since I single hand this 51 ft. LOA vessel a lot in tight marinas I have added a mobile remote docking system. I can now walk anywhere on the boat or dock and control all drive and thrust-er elements and I think that trumps docking from a FB especially single handed.

Click to expand...

You have a very nice boat!

We need to remember that every boat is a compromise. In your boats case the compromise (from the photos) is that you have less interior and exterior room for the overall length than a boat that utilizes some other designs.

So, while your boats design works for you, folks that made the choice to purchase a boat with more interior room, and places like a flying bridge don't have poorly designed boats, they have booats that made different compromises.

My boat for example is the same length as yours and has a pilothouse and a flying bridge. The pilothouse is a separate living area, another place to hang out if you will. My pilothouse is approx 12X8 or 96 square feet of living space. Living space your boat does not have.

The same for the flying bridge. Its more than a helm station. We have two large settees up there plus room for chaise lounges... We even have a sink and a referidgerator on the flying bridge. The area represents approx 13X25' or 325 square feet of living space. This is living space your boat doesn't have either.

Remember, I'm not knocking your boat. You have a great looking boat. I would just caution you that the rest of our boats do not represent poor design, and the person that designed your boat wasnt the only Naval Architect that got it right. All of our boats were designed by competent people that made design choices based on what they envisioned potential customers would want.

ksanders said:

The same for the flying bridge. Its more than a helm station. We have two large settees up there plus room for chaise lounges... We even have a sink and a referidgerator on the flying bridge. The area represents approx 13X25' or 325 square feet of living space. This is living space your boat doesn't have either.

Click to expand...

Good point !! So many people see the flybridge as just a steering station. In reality it's one of the more roomy and pleasant entertainment areas on the boat, with seating for six and a refer for Corona!!

Edelweiss said:

Good point !! So many people see the flybridge as just a steering station. In reality it's one of the more roomy and pleasant entertainment areas on the boat, with seating for six and a refer for Corona!!

Click to expand...

True, True, True!!

For cruising there is comfortable permanent seating for 5 in affixed cushioned chairs - 3 facing forward and 2 facing rear. Deck space for two portable chairs can make that = 7. When at anchor there is often one to three on bridge during day. Port and stbd permanently fastened full track fold-downs act as recliners or flats making it nice for reading or snoozing. Storage lockers under fold-downs offer plentiful space as is the same for cabinet doors to either side of center helm. When canvassed at dock, coolers, cushions, small HD inflatable boat with oars, BBQ equipment, and swimming toys are stored under.

For 4th O' July fireworks, Christmas parades, and other events it becomes standing room only to get best views from the bridge.

Yup! - - > Flying bridge surely is not only for piloting - but - many assorted fun things too!

As I see it the trade offs in boat and trawler design often center around how much the boat is a vacation home on the water vs how much emphasis is on it being just a functional boat. There is good reason why buyers and builders opt for the space and luxury thus the big boxy boat. The classical primary helm station is commonly caught up in this compromise situation along with things like side decks cockpits and low free-board. The FB aside from the primary station has its + attributes and negative all a balance in choice. My point being with some design thought a primary helm need not be augmented by the FB just for the sake of visibility. I do not think this statement would hold water when applied to sport-fishing boats or working tugs,but could work with many pleasure trawlers(whatever trawler implies) and express types. There are many of these types with very nice primary helm stations and some that really cry for a FB. There are many boat with good upper and lower helms and some with both lacking its all in the trade offs.

I was coming back from a 2 night trip south of Savannah this morning on the icw and i noticed several northbound boats with nice bridges that were operating from the lower helm. I didnt understand why until i took a down wind turn. Horseflies. By the thousands. Bitting right thru my tee shirt.

How's this for rear visibility from below?

Like I said in the OP, I just knew I was going to hate myself for stirring up this pot.

Barpilot what you get is different opinions and preferences. One of my joys cursing or walking a dock is seeing the many different approaches taken to deal with traveling on the water. If you have a good reason to have a FB or your boat came with one enjoy it if you can. If you are considering an add on or new to you boat just weigh the pros and cons as they affect your time on the water. There is no free lunch here a FB costs in terms of $ complexity and potential negative function, so it has to do something you want if you purposefully put it there. my present boat was designed and built one off I had to go through this process and decide if I end up with a FB. 30 years ago I probably would have given more weight to a FB,my needs and my interface with the water has changed over time.

markpierce said:

Still giving us the oldies, aren't you Al?

Click to expand...

Nope...that's how she looks today.

Moonstruck said:

How's this for rear visibility from below?

Click to expand...

Looks great!

Barpilot said:

Like I said in the OP, I just knew I was going to hate myself for stirring up this pot.

Click to expand...

Good discussion of various perspectives, IMO. (no pun intended) Thanks, Barpilot!

Barpilot said:

Like I said in the OP, I just knew I was going to hate myself for stirring up this pot.

Click to expand...

Nothing stirred up. Just individual preferences and reasoning. Help you figure out your own preferences.

Funny thread; I showed it to Ann.
"So you are arguing both with the lower helm only crowd and the flying bridge only crowd?"
Answer: "Yes! Because in the ideal world, they are both wrong!"
"Well isn't that a little too obvious?"

One thing that I note about the lower helm only crowd: the focus seems to be more on boating as a means to get from Point A to Point B, rather than on enjoying and observing the surroundings on the water and the out of doors. As I said, we are all on the water for different reasons.

Horseflies. By the thousands. Bitting right thru my tee shirt.

Click to expand...

OMG, the May flies in Georgia! Like something out of a Stephen King novel. Yes, we were very thankful for our lower helm the one year we experienced that. They are only out for about a week, but dayammn!

Mark, your wife being all bundled up was the giveaway. Still missing 70% of the view. I spent the first half of my life messing around out there on sail boats and skiffs and ski boats. Always thought it kind of boring in and of itself. Then later in life came back and did it all on Fb equipped boats... whole 'nother world, on the rivers and Delta. If you ever get out the Gate and do ocean cruising, then much, much less of an issue for sure; needle definitely swings in favor of lower CG and helm.