Lower Helm Station

manyboats said:

Rusty,
You mentioned your PNW weather in your last post but it says you live in CA just below your avatar. Are you up here or in CA.

And Rusty if you had a Claw you could hardly see it at all. That is the best anchor possible from a helmsman's point of view.

Having to look at the roll bar could be worth it for you as you've got what is probably the best anchor in the world.

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The boat lives in Seattle. We are currently exiled to California. Hoping to change that in the near future.

On Bay Pelican, a Krogen 42, we use the pilot house for all trips except when we are docking. We have no visibility to the stern from the pilot house so I use the upper helm when docking. Personal preference, but I enjoy the comfort and the wealth of equipment in the pilot house.

Most anchors aren't pleasing to look at and this guy dosn't need to lay eyes on it while he's on the boat. No bow pulpit, cluttery hand rails or anything else obstructs his view above his cap rail.

Many upper helms are employed because the visibility from the lower helm is so terribly bad. This guy may not be able to see the horizon from his lower helm, if he has one and I suspect he does. I've only seen this boat in northern BC waters and SE AK.

Thanks for the update Rusty .. full speed ahead.

manyboats said:

Many upper helms are employed because the visibility from the lower helm is so terribly bad. .

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Very true....but a reason for better design, not to forego lower helms. Hatteras is an example of visibility issues from lower helm due to long sloping windshield. Could easily have been otherwise.

markpierce said:

Not with five opening windows and two doors in the pilothouse. Not after having exposure spending years in an open cockpit during sailing days. Not with immediate access to deck for handling docking lines (allowing self-embarking and disembarking). Not needing additional windage.

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Well if your cruising grounds are the Delta and the Petaluma/Napa rivers and you enjoy looking at tules and levee bank rip rap all day, I suppose. Ditto a lot of the ICW. But up on a FB, there's a whole new world out there on the other side! Not to mention less glare off the water (very handy when cruising places like the Bahamas), better view of hazards, birds, etc etc.

To each his own, we are all out on the water for different reasons and different things give each of us enjoyment.

BandB said:

Very true....but a reason for better design, not to forego lower helms. Hatteras is an example of visibility issues from lower helm due to long sloping windshield. Could easily have been otherwise.

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What Hatteras are you talking about?!?! I have been on a lot of Hatts, old and new and your statement surprises me. "Surprises" is putting it mildly.

N4712 said:

Not to sidetrack anything, but to the far right do I spy a forward looking sonar?

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There's a story behind that.

I loved my new wiz bang interphase forward looking sonar. I bought the one that does a vertical sweep, so I could find my way through narrow channels and see rocks in a potential anchorage.

It was a fantastic piece of equipment, doing everything it promised to do, once you figured it out.

I used it my first season with the boat, and when I went to fire it up the next season it worked when I dewinterized the boat but then quit working.

I tried to call the nice folks at interphase and was shocked to find out that Garmin had bought them out and then shut the doors. No tech support, no spare parts, nada. I was to say the least unhappy.

The symptom was that it appeared too be working but it would not see any return echos. Unhooking the transducer provided a transducer alarm so I know it at least recognized the transfucer.

So, I was stuck, on my own and not having a clear indication of what part was actually bad. I think its either the sonar engine or the trandsucer since the display just used a VGA cable.

When I hauled the boat last fall I checked out the transducer pretty closely and didnt see any place it had been impacted, so now I'm left with a unsupported unit I cannot find spares for.

I keep thinking I'll look on ebay and just buy a whole new unit, to have a spare, because I did like it. it just tweakked me that I could not get support for the unit. I dont use Garmin marine electronics anyway, but if I did I would not anymore.

So, I deinstalled the display, leaving the sonar engine and transducer in place, and in my anguish I bought a third Furuno navnet display to put in its place. I like Furuno. You call and a guy in america answers the phone and helps you out. You never get, "sorry" out of Furuno. I had a display go bad, out of warranty and Furuno charged a reasonable price to repair it, and since it required a software update, they updated all of my displays for free.

caltexflanc said:

Well if your cruising grounds are the Delta and the Petaluma/Napa rivers and you enjoy looking at tules and levee bank rip rap all day, I suppose. Ditto a lot of the ICW. But up on a FB, there's a whole new world out there on the other side! Not to mention less glare off the water (very handy when cruising places like the Bahamas), better view of hazards, birds, etc etc.

To each his own, we are all out on the water for different reasons and different things give each of us enjoyment.

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That's very true...the view up top is the greatest! And on some faster boats with a lot of bow rise, the fwd visibility has got to be poor from the lower helm.

On my 34 Californian, I have good 340 degree visibility (my countertop fridge blocks the full circle) from the lower helm and all my foul weather equipment is there, too...radar, chartplotters, radios, foghorn controls, etc. But the FB is tough to beat on a nice day with the great view, the breeze and the sunshine!! It's nice to have choices.

I have been reading the posts and I see others are getting the idea. A well designed pilot station makes a fly bridge an unnecessary extravagance. A poorly done primary helm station makes a fly bridge a necessity. Just want to throw in a little experience with rear view cameras. Hooking these cameras into your nav screen can go a long way to solve poor rear view,but not as good as 360 view. Another area of experience I have had is using a complete mobile remote to dock. Motor/motors + thruster/thrusters and walking anywhere on boat for view or to deal with lines or picking up a mooring. This last item is expensive but no more than the FB and more practical in many ways and much less wind age and cant be ugly .

FlyWright said:

. . . . from the lower helm and all my foul weather equipment is there, too...radar, chartplotters, radios, foghorn controls, etc. But the FB is tough to beat on a nice day with the great view, the breeze and the sunshine!! It's nice to have choices.

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Same here!! But on sunny days, under way, anchored or at the dock . . . nice to have the option to sit up there in the sun and yet you have the feeling of some privacy. Must be a Californian owners syndrome!!

caltexflanc said:

Well if your cruising grounds are the Delta and the Petaluma/Napa rivers and you enjoy looking at tules and levee bank rip rap all day, I suppose. Ditto a lot of the ICW. But up on a FB, there's a whole new world out there on the other side! Not to mention less glare off the water (very handy when cruising places like the Bahamas), better view of hazards, birds, etc etc. ...

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One step to starboard from the helm onto the deck, results in a wonderful, unobstructed view of the Sonoma County landscape (along the Petaluma River), a beautiful GB42 (with flying bridge unoccupied), and my Sweetie:

markpierce said:

One step to starboard from the helm onto the deck, results in a wonderful, unobstructed view of the Sonoma County landscape (along the Petaluma River), a beautiful GB42 (with flying bridge unoccupied), and my Sweetie:

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Well in the delta y'all have brown water. Here in the Keys and Bahamas we have blue-water which makes for great scenery on a nice sunny day.

Touche. Yes, our waters tend to be murky and nutrient-rich. After all, it's an estuary.

Al will attest to that:

markpierce said:

Touche. Yes, our waters tend to be murky and nutrient-rich. After all, it's an estuary.

Al will attest to that:

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Good fishing here too.
Before

After

I built mine with the lower helm primary, with a primitive flybridge. All the electronics are at the lower station. 95% of cruising is on lower station. Best to keep out of the sun, mostly. Visibility is good even planed out, which is unique on modern boats.

I am around a lot of Carolina boatbuilding, and the lower station is not practical on most modern Carolina boats. With the big hp, the bow rise is such that you can not see over the bow, even when past the "hump". The lower helm is of no use if you cannot see beyond the bow.

When I built mine, I took a typical 35' modified vee carolina bottom and stretched it 3feet. Kept it light, with modest hp, and engine more fwd than most. The vis from the lower station is good even at the hump (abt 12kts). Boat runs very flat through the whole speed range. The mix of compromises works.

My whole focus on a functioning lower station was borne from running a 2mil sportfish in cold weather. The mate and I had to take turns using our hands to melt the ice on the isenglass enclosure, freezing our butts off too. Meanwhile down below, nice heat and creature comforts. To me that was insane. So when I drew out mine, it had a functional lower station. The big gamble was the vis over the bow, and no way to tell of success until sea trial day. Gamble paid off.

Lower stations rock. Done right, that is.

There is one and only one reason to need to have both upper and lower helm!

Redundancy during special times that may require sudden safety measures!

There is one and only one reason to want to have both upper and lower helm!

Cause Ya Like IT That Way!!

BTW - To those who think a bridge ain't too great - Try it, you'll like it!!

I do bridge piloting 99.5%... But... I have a lower helm to utilize whenever desired or needed. I always start cold engines from lower helm so I can listen closely as they warm up. I also use lower helm whenever working on running engines/transmissions that rest under two huge, hinged hatches in salon sole. And, during that infrequent .05% of the time when weather becomes simply to abysmal to want to stay on bridge for piloting - the salon helm is simply great to stay warm and dry!

Happy Boat Piloting Daze! - Art

I'll admit there are those who prefer to helm from high:



Nevertheless,

Barpilot said:

At the risk of starting another controversy, I'll ask anyway. After owning 19 boats in the last 64 years, all with a single helm, is a lower helm station on a motor yacht just a waste of space and money? I just know I'm going to be sorry for asking this...............

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My sisters Post doesn't even have a lower helm, or windshield, for that matter. My parent's Mainship lower helm has never been used as far as I know. You'd have to go out and pull the canvas off of the windshield. Of course, why would you without a pilothouse door?

That said, I don't even have an upper helm, nor would I want one with my size boat.

CPseudonym said:

Barpilot, this thread promises to be a spirited one, I like it

Now if we could only find a way to include anchor selection it would have the makings of an epic thread.

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We mostly use our flybridge for anchoring, and at anchor… :so cool:
Hardly ever use it on the move, unless an idyllic day and lots to see. I could easily do without and use that extra surface for solar panels. If you didn't have one, and had a good, well set up lower helm, you wouldn't really miss it most times, in my view.

My last boat had only a flybridge helm and I really enjoyed driving from there, so when I ordered my current boat I made sure to have a fully-equipped bridge. But, I planned 5 other helm stations (pilot house, tower, port and starboard wing stations on the portuguese bridge, and cockpit) and find that 95% of my steering is done from the pilothouse. That stat is perhaps a little misleading, because most of the hours are on multi-day, offshore, 24-7 trips. On shorter duration cruises, much more time is spent on the Portuguese bridge. Many days, when the seas are calm and the weather is nice, we are in the tower. To my great surprise, the flybridge gets surprisingly little use. If it's nice, we are in the tower; if not its the PH. And for short periods in congested waters the portuguese bridge can't be beat.

Sigh……...

Peter B said:

If you didn't have one, and had a good, well set up lower helm,

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Point of order sir. If you do not have 2 helms wouldn't you just have "a" helm?

OK Mr. RT Firefly - Come clean! Do you or do you not!?!? The boating public wants to know!!

Pilothouse with all doors open.

With our boating on Lake Michigan, much of the time we just go out on the lake only to return to our home slip. 180 degrees of nothing to avoid for miles and miles and after a few miles it is 360 degrees of freedom, so point the bow to make the wind and sun work exactly as desired. Last boat just had a bridge - gets lonely up there at the wrong times.

Chicago down the river the flybridge is great to judge the bridge clearances. Waiting for bridge tenders or lowering the mast is a no brainer. Some are still pretty close clearance.

Greetings,
Mr. A. Depends...

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. A. Depends...

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Simply TOOOO Much Info! - RT :lol:

I hve never owned a vessel with a lower helm. It's always been on my most wanted option list. I now own a Gulfstar 36 dual helm trawler. I'm going to run it from both helms for 2 weeks. I would really like to remove the upper helm which would lower the boat's center of gravity. I need the real estate for a large solar charging system and I would like to have 2 solar water panels to create and circulate hot water. I sure could use the additional room above for my various KVH domes, antennas and NMEA2000 sensors. In addition it would give me a safe place to install the AIR-X wind turbine.
Bill

Due to the nice weather we enjoy all year long, we use our fly bridge helm more often, than the lower station. Wouldn't bother me not to have a lower helm.

CPseudonym said:

Point of order sir. If you do not have 2 helms wouldn't you just have "a" helm?

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In reply to point of order…what I meant was…if you have a well set up lower helm, emphasis on the well set up, then…you really won't miss not having one upstairs. However, maybe I should add the rider, 'as long as your craft has good rear vision from down below'. I can understand boats with aft cabins like tri-cabin and sun-deck types, might well find close manoeuvring easier from the flybridge helm.