Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

For Sits & Giggles, this is regarding Dino-vs-Syn oil: True life 47 yr high performance gasoline auto engine experience, i.e Dino not Syn.

Today: Tore down my 125K mi, 1967, 430 cid / 360 hp / 10.5 - 1 compression, factory original Buick Wildcat engine. Valves and timing renewed at 100K mi, block never touched. Oil pan never removed.

Missing and bad blow by began couple hundred miles ago, low key internal sounds too. Performed wet/dry compression test, all cylinders but one reading 160 to 175 lbs in either test. # 3 cylinder ran 40 to 45 lbs wet or dry. At first we felt (I hoped) maybe it was valve or even a lifter problem. So... we switched lifters, but same reading. Then we pulled head; wet test under pressure was A-OK. Then we pulled # 3 piston - And Oh Crap!!

# 3 piston was cracked in several upward area locations in proximity to rings; rings messed up too... why???... I and my mechanics don't know. Maybe factory material defect, maybe just 47 yrs age wherein metal fatigued? Not from pre ignition - we coild tell by piston tops. I figure if one went that way, even though cylinder wall is fine condition (crosshatches still visible under strong light) and bearings worn but not too bad... it's time for full rebuild.

Now - Here's what all this engine's internals looked like with 47 years of DINO OIL – Virtually STOTLESS! Even in lowest part of oil pan barely a smidge of sludge. I use Valvoline High Detergent Heavy Duty Dino Diesel Oil with 4 oz ZDDP additive at oil change and another 4 oz at 1/2 way through change. I replace oil at between 2.5K and 3K miles in all my classic-aged solid lifter engines. I bought this Cat 1998, 71,321 miles. PO's were in 70’s when they bought her new. Probably had regular oil changes with regular dino oil. She’d sat with short drives few times per year by son of remaining mom owner. She passed at 101 yrs.

I'm contemplating using synthetic oil after rebuild and will talk with the race car mechanic who rebuilds her. If engine’s interior was this clean – Dino Oil – vs – Syn Oil is still up in the air to my way of thinking.

OK – Synthetic Oil Pros - - > Convince Me, Why Syn over Dino??

Happy Oil Change Daze! - Art

New engines - new oil.
Old engines....................simple.

Art said:

For Sits & Gigles, this is regarding Dino-vs-Syn oil: True life 47 yr high performance gasoline auto engine experience regarding - Dino not Syn.

Today: Tore down my 125K mi, 1967, 430 cid / 360 hp / 10.5 - 1 compression, factory original Buick Wildcat engine. Valves and timing renewed at 100K mi, block never touched. Oil pan never removed.


I'm contemplating using synthetic oil after rebuild and will talk with the race car mechanic who rebuilds her. If engine’s interior was this clean – Dino Oil – vs – Syn Oil is still up in the air to my way of thinking.

OK – Synthetic Oil Preos - - > Convince Me, Why Syn over Dino??

Happy Oil Change Daze! - Art

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kinda like my story above with the defective crank shaft. Don't think either incident had anything to do with the oil.

your engine was well maintained so no deposits were formed. Oils main job is keeping dirt in suspension. when the oil becomes saturated the crude percipitates out. Syn holds dirt better than dino oils. All these facts are well documented and if the facts don't convince you look at some of the big trucking companies maintenance cost records. Many of them have gone syn.
The only down side is the increased cost. For engines your question is valid but for diferentials and transmissions syn is a no brainer. All performance cars have the stuff from the factory and all US auto makers are using it. They wouldn't be using it if it didn't save them money

bfloyd4445 said:

kinda like my story above with the defective crank shaft. Don't think either incident had anything to do with the oil.

your engine was well maintained so no deposits were formed. Oils main job is keeping dirt in suspension. when the oil becomes saturated the crude percipitates out. Syn holds dirt better than dino oils. All these facts are well documented and if the facts don't convince you look at some of the big trucking companies maintenance cost records. Many of them have gone syn.
The only down side is the increased cost. For engines your question is valid but for diferentials and transmissions syn is a no brainer. All performance cars have the stuff from the factory and all US auto makers are using it. They wouldn't be using it if it didn't save them money

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Britt, all good points, thanks!

So if as you say "Syn holds dirt better than Dino oils." Is that to mean that Syn keeps the dirt "wrapped-up /suspended in its lubricating factors" better than Dino. If with both oils there is the same amount of dirt that enters into engine... it seems that if the dirt were released from the oil (whatever type it is) to drop to pan bottom or be removed via the filter - well - that would best keep the oil virgin to better create lubricating barriors. There is much about engine oils I do not understand!

I’m currently sitting squarely on the fence as to using Dino or Syn; when my Buick Wildcat High Performance engine is undergoing its break-in, as well as thereafter... The locally renowned engine rebuilder will be the one that chooses. Bet he has all kinds of special-lube as well as caustic break-in stuff he’ll want me to use! I will post results.

Always seeking to learn more re Dino-vs-Syn oils.

Cheers! Art

There's only two good reasons to use synthetic oil and that's if your engine will have parts dependent on the lube oil that are so hot those parts will break down the Dino oil causing metal to metal contact where not intended. And 2nd if your manual specifies synthetic oil.

That's why new cars require syn oil and why many trucking companies use it. In a word .. turbocharger. Or heat.

If you have a water cooled engine w/o a turbo you don't need syn oil. And there is no benefit worth mentioning.

And the first job for lube oil is not to hold dirt in suspension but to keep metal parts from coming in contact w each other.

The question of should I use syn oil or Dino oil is much like the question of multi-vis or straight wt oil. If you need it you need it. And if you don't you don't. Over 99% of the time your manual will tell you if you need or don't need syn or multi-vis oil.

As to dirt? Why would syn carry or be able to hold in a harmless state more dirt than Dino oil? Especially when Dino is usually changed more often.

My philosophy is to run straight 30W oil in my boat and change it often .. Two or three times a year. I run multi-weight (vis) dino or syn in my vehicles as per the manual.

Another comparison that fits here is high octane gasoline for a car. Unless there's pre-ignition, pinging or detonation there's no advantage to running anything but 87 octane gasoline regular gas. They call higher octane fuel "premium" probably so you will think it's better .. and buy it. It's not better ... unless you need it and your manual will tell you if you do.

Straight wt dino oil is all you need in an old NA diesel. Probably any new NA as well. No advantage for running anything else that is worth talking about. Unless your manual says so.

And there is no old oil for old engines or old style oil for old style engines. Or new type oil for newer engines unless the engine actually needs it and then the manual will say so. The requirements of the engine determine what oil needs to be used.

Thanks, Eric! In addition to good info/suggestions/presumptions (mine included) on dino-vs-syn oil from TF members... I look forward to an oil-chat with my gasoline performance engine's rebuilder.

BTW: Eric, notice how I recently think twice before using others' quotes in my posts? Not saying I'll always obey!

>Another comparison that fits here is high octane gasoline for a car. Unless there's pre-ignition, pinging or detonation there's no advantage to running anything but 87 octane gasoline regular gas.<

This is fine if your car is an antique , but today most gas cars have ping detection , that hears pre-ignition or detonation and adjusts the timing , fuel injection and turbo boost as required.The operator will never Hear the engine suffering .

Running low test in a new hi test required car will only reduce power and increase fuel consumption , but not ruin the engine.

However using hi test in a modern car not built for it will do almost nothing except cost more.

FF said:

>Another comparison that fits here is high octane gasoline for a car. Unless there's pre-ignition, pinging or detonation there's no advantage to running anything but 87 octane gasoline regular gas.<

This is fine if your car is an antique , but today most gas cars have ping detection , that hears pre-ignition or detonation and adjusts the timing , fuel injection and turbo boost as required.The operator will never Hear the engine suffering .

Running low test in a new hi test required car will only reduce power and increase fuel consumption , but not ruin the engine.

However using hi test in a modern car not built for it will do almost nothing except cost more.

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Race car mechanic rebuilding my 1967 10.5 to 1 compression Wildcat engine tells me that with today's highest octane of 91 that 9.5 to 1 is in general the highest compression ratio to run for security that pings will not occur in old classic high-performance engines. He also states that by lowering the thermostat temp from factory recommended 180 degree to 160 and altering the dwell / timing slightly from factory specs that even with pistons that provide 10.5 to 1 compression the dreaded ping can be avoided. With 125K miles on my 430 cid, 360 hp Buick engine there appears to never have been any pinging... We determined that by looking at top of original pistons. For simplicity in rebuild to original specs I will probably remain with original piston design. I can easily get the originals, and, pistons that lower compression to 9.5 to 1 will be a task to locate.

All in all as this classic-performance engine rebuild progresses I will keep close eye on all increments! I might even have my mechanic jump up this performance engine’s HP to 400 +/-. We shall see; the block gets delivered to his shop tomorrow.

FF wrote;

"This is fine if your car is an antique , but today most gas cars have ping detection , that hears pre-ignition or detonation and adjusts the timing , fuel injection and turbo boost as required.The operator will never Hear the engine suffering ."

HaHa you got me there. I forgot about that. But my point still stands if you apply it to "antiques". If you use the manual you don't even need to know if you've got an antique or not. FF you've always said "read da book". Like most VWs w turbo's whereas VW "recommends" the use of "premium" fuel. Perhaps the higher octane isn't really needed unless your'e on a grade pulling a trailer in the desert in the summer. But for those that do VW has covered their behinds w the recommendation. Ant little old ladies can say "My oh my I don't need that".

But my new VW does require synthetic oil and I just put in 6 quarts. After I managed to FIND the oil filter and deal w the star (Torx) socket drain plug. I used a vice grip. I changed the oil even though VW dosn't recommend it until the car has 10,000 miles on it. Just could'nt stand it at 5,400 miles.

Now is someone going to come back at me and say the synthetic oil will hold 10 times as much dirt ???

What consideration has been made for the metal particles in the oil from break-in .... I haven't heard but I'm sure consideration has been made. Perhaps only 95% sure as I did change my oil at half the recommended millage. Hmmmm

What ever happened to Capthead? He was always in the thick of it re synthetic oil. Must have become a dino convert.

Greetings,
Mr, m. Could be an urban legend but I understand at one point in the far past cars came with a special "break in" oil. Could it be that VW has done something similar and that's why the 10,000 mile oil change interval? Just askin'

Mr R good question.

But perhaps they discovered there was no wear caused by the break-in metal particles and threw out the precaution.

What do other new cars recommend? I didn't think of VW as being any different that others in this regard.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr, m. Could be an urban legend but I understand at one point in the

(1)far past cars came with a special "break in" oil.

(2) Could it be that VW has done something similar and that's why the 10,000 mile oil change interval?

Just askin'

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(1) From what I understand in 50's / 60's some did, some did not. As I recall, some manufacturers recomended changing oil after first 500 miles and again after first 1,500... then 3K mile intervals

(2) Maybe a big ouch - maybe not?? I would keep that oil change to myself, as Eric did by changing it himself.

Art you know "Eric" dosn't keep things to himself.

The dealer guys didn't put down my oil change though. One mechanic took me in the garage and showed me an oil changer that pumps up vacuum and sucks out the oil through the dip stick hole. It's just like the one I used to use on my previous boat. Mine is only 5 qts and his was about 8. He was skeptical that it pumped out all the oil so he opened the drain plug and said nothing came out.

Next time I go back to the dealer I'll ask him some other questions.

Vacuum extraction is fine in alloy engines. No magnetic drain plug to check and clean.

Synthetic oil can hold more dirt until it is passed through the filter. Then the filter holds the contaminates. The particulates should not be circulating.

SaltyDog said:

New engines - new oil.
Old engines....................simple.

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Wrong too for new engines, check the owner's manual for warranty requirements.

When you look at crude oil Valvoline is an ash based oil. Pennzoil is paraffin based. This is why tearing down old engines with ash based oil results in clean engines with little to no sludge.

This never happens with paraffin based oils. Major sludge always.

Look at Valvoline and see where the company is, Ashland Texas. Wonder how they got the name. Havoline oil is ash based too.

Capthead,
I recall the ash/paraffin base thing from the 50s and 60s.

Where do you find that information? Since my motorcycle days I've mostly used Castrol. It dosn't say on the can does it?

Must be very little paraffin base around as I've seen so little sludge.

Capthead said:

When you look at crude oil Valvoline is an ash based oil. Pennzoil is paraffin based. This is why tearing down old engines with ash based oil results in clean engines with little to no sludge.

This never happens with paraffin based oils. Major sludge always.

Look at Valvoline and see where the company is, Ashland Texas. Wonder how they got the name. Havoline oil is ash based too.

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Capthead - To continue your lube input - - >

Point in fact... Last week: Tore down my 1967, 430 cid / 360 hp / 10.5 to 1 compression, domed head Wildcat engine - All Original parts in her block. At her first 125K miles she cracked #3 piston on the sides in ring area; blow by immediately became horrendous and power notably dropped. For years, I've used Valvoline, HD, dino Diesel oil with 4 oz ZDDP added at every 2.5K mile oil change. She is spotless inside. Even the oil pan has next to no film in its bottom.

Plan to soon rebuild complete. A bit of added cam lobe and hotter pistons may be added. May also go Edelbrock intake manifold with Edelbrock Carb (currently orig dual quad Rochester – might just rebuild that carb??).

I am chatting with old time race car mechanics from Sears Point / Infineon Raceway CA. I will make decision whether to keep using same oil as before or begin using synthetic oil.

Art said:

... with today's highest octane of 91..

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Art, note the economical quote, and the less welcome slight drift(the thread not the Wildcat)
Is that right, octane max is 91?? 91 is base level here,alongside 95 and 98. Plenty of European cars here demand 95, some need 98. Just bought my first diesel engined car.

BruceK said:

Art, note the economical quote, and the less welcome slight drift(the thread not the Wildcat)
Is that right, octane max is 91?? 91 is base level here,alongside 95 and 98. Plenty of European cars here demand 95, some need 98. Just bought my first diesel engined car.

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Bruce, I don't think Art is right about 91 octane being their highest, but as an aside…what vehicle did you go for - always interested in cars..?

Peter B said:

Bruce, I don't think Art is right about 91 octane being their highest, but as an aside…what vehicle did you go for - always interested in cars..?

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Bruce - Far as I know, and far as any of my racing buddies have mentioned when we chat, 91 octane is currently top level on Pacific coast of U.S. Actually, I believe that is the highest octane available at gas stations across the country. There are octane boosters that can be added to gas tanks - but - their expense and "safe" on vehicle storage for an additive during long trips can become prohibitive. - Art

Yup ... 91 octane.

Art,
What's ZDDP?

RT,
Yes I remember the 500 mi break-in oil. It was common. I suppose if the engine was all plastic there would'nt be the excess of metal particles floating around during break-in. But I'm sure the pistons and cylinders are metal so I would think the heavy particles of metal would be there. Why does it not seem to be a problem anymore? All I can think of is that somebody discovered it was an old wife's tale and the break-in metal dosn't cause extra wear. Or that the metal particles were only in the minds of men and not in engines. ?????

Bruce what's "your first diesel car"?

Eric, What I know is all Pennsylvania crude is paraffin based crude and Pennzoil and Castrol go to great lengths to remove as much paraffin as they can without harming the lube qualities. They have gotten much better than back in the 60's.

BruceK said:

Art, note the economical quote, and the less welcome slight drift(the thread not the Wildcat)
Is that right, octane max is 91?? 91 is base level here,alongside 95 and 98. Plenty of European cars here demand 95, some need 98. Just bought my first diesel engined car.

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In the US and Canada gas pump octane ratings are the average of RON (Research Octane Number) and AKI (Anti Knock Index). As I recall - in Europe, NZ and Australia - to deal with wrong side drivers they use RON only which is about 6 to 8 points higher.

And CapthHead, don't believe all that decades old advertising stuff about ash and paraffin for our every day oils. The bottom line is provided the oils are graded and properly rated and marked for CN, SJ4 ASI, CSI , MFD or IRS that matches the engines real world requirements the engine will do quite nicely.

Interestingly, many internet babble synthetics are not graded so resort to market hype. Grading requires big bucks for testing and certification. Hence the engine manufacturers need for warranty able syns like Mobil 1 vs say Royal Burble.

What I know is true though. There are two distinct bases of crude oil and some crude is a combination of the two. It gets to the capabilities of the refinery which the penn companies have mastered.

Capthead said:

What I know is true though. There are two distinct bases of crude oil and some crude is a combination of the two. It gets to the capabilities of the refinery which the penn companies have mastered.

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Or one could say there are dozens if not hundreds of types of crudes. For industrial marketing to refiners it gets sorted out by using designations like "sweet light crude" or "Brent" or "Heavy." Or tar sands crude? It gets complicated real quick, hence the need for front end crude grading so the sellers and refiners know selling and buying prices for raw products.

A healthy read of the Oil and Gas Journal will add a bit of brevity to the labeling maze we mere mortals perusing the Walmart stocks fall prey to.

manyboats said:

Yup ... 91 octane.

Art,
What's ZDDP?

RT,
Yes I remember the 500 mi break-in oil. It was common. I suppose if the engine was all plastic there would'nt be the excess of metal particles floating around during break-in. But I'm sure the pistons and cylinders are metal so I would think the heavy particles of metal would be there. Why does it not seem to be a problem anymore? All I can think of is that somebody discovered it was an old wife's tale and the break-in metal dosn't cause extra wear. Or that the metal particles were only in the minds of men and not in engines. ?????

Bruce what's "your first diesel car"?

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Hey Eric - ZDDP is a brand additive of zinc http://zddplus.com/.

Catalytic converters’ internals do not do well with zinc or any exhaust that may contain same; it clogs their finely arranged/coated sectors and depletes their noxious gas removal qualities... it too soon ruins them. ZDDP (zinc in general) is not recommended for any engines with cat-converters.

Classic gas engines (approximately pre 1994) had solid lifters, i.e. “flat tappets”. Zinc in oil had been used for decades as an extra protective barrier in the lube-film that must exist between cam lobes and solid lifter bottoms. With the advent of roller bearing lifter bottoms the zinc in oil became less needed and due to its cat-converter destruction soon became reduced amounts in gasoline engine oils. Currently I believe zinc is virtually nonexistent in gasoline engine oils... but... it still is in fair concentrations in HD Valvoline high detergent, dino diesel oil (and, maybe in other diesel oils too). That is why I use Valvoline dino diesel oil with a 4 oz bottle ZDDP at each oil change in my several flat tappet classic engines. For safety I also throw in another 4 oz ZDDP in middle mileage between each oil change.

Having just torn apart my 47 year old high performance 125K mile - 1967, 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5 to 1 compression Buick Wildcat engine I can attest to the amazing (virtually perfect) cleanliness throughout engine as well as the really great condition of bearings, all flat lifters' bottoms, and its cam’s lobes. If it had not been that #3 cylinder cracked its piston in 3 locations around the ring areas that motor would probably have run well for many more miles. Blow by suddenly became horrendous and there was notable power reduction as well as a miss in engine... that one cylinder had dropped from 165 to 175 pounds (in all other cylinders) during recent wet/dry compression test to 40/45 pounds.

Now that I have her apart I'm going full-out in rebuild and plan to jack up her HP into the low 400's via increased cam lobes, special pistons, and maybe even Edelbrock intake and carb?? We shall see how this all goes... I'm having a highly reputed machine shop race car motor expert in classic engines do the actual block rebuild. He's an old boy and really knows his stuff regarding classic high performance gasoline engines.

What I’m not sure yet is exactly what oil-lube concoction to use during break-in and what to continually use as general oil after her break in. Maybe Synthetic oil (I don’t know if syn oils should also have ZDDP added for flat tappets)??? Or, maybe stay with Valvoline dino Diesel oil and 4 oz ZDDP??? I’ll rely heavily on my rebuild mechanic’s suggestions, as well as discuss lube qualities with other high performance classic engine owners/rebuilders.

Happy Classic Gas-Engine Daze! - Art

I agree with what you said. My knowledge comes from my relatives whom one was the head chemist for Phillips Petroleum the others worked for Halliburton as chemical engineers.

I wouldn't advise using synthetic oil for break in.

Capthead said:

I wouldn't advise using synthetic oil for break in.

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I'm not particularly planning to - but, why do you advise not too... experience??