WiFi

Speaking for myself, I hope this conversation continues.
The knowledge being shared by all, helps the rest of us understand this new part of our online life.

Thanks to ALL of you sharing with us.

As the originator of this thread questioning whether public WiFi is widely available without a password, it's obvious that it is and carries certain risks.
All fear mongering aside there is as anyone who has read this far has learned, certain risks in using public WiFi. Those fears have been highlighted by ActiveCaptain and Ksanders among others.

I do wonder however why ActiveCaptain has promoted the use of public WiFi and has explained in his articles how to acquire WiFi signals from a considerable distance if using public WiFi carries the risks he's warned of.

Perhaps a solution is to use two media devices, one to surf the web using public WiFi, and another to conduct banking transactions and credit card purchases only via a MiFi unit.

timjet said:

As the originator of this thread questioning whether public WiFi is widely available without a password, it's obvious that it is and carries certain risks.
All fear mongering aside there is as anyone who has read this far has learned, certain risks in using public WiFi. Those fears have been highlighted by ActiveCaptain and Ksanders among others.

I do wonder however why ActiveCaptain has promoted the use of public WiFi and has explained in his articles how to acquire WiFi signals from a considerable distance if using public WiFi carries the risks he's warned of.

Perhaps a solution is to use two media devices, one to surf the web using public WiFi, and another to conduct banking transactions and credit card purchases only via a MiFi unit.

Click to expand...

I cannot speak for Active Captain, but he seems to have some influence with marinas. Perhaps he can help them engineer more security into their systems. He seems knowledgable enough to do so.

Marinas have no real business interest in providing wifi to their guests, except as a tool to increase customer happiness, which increases revenue in the end.

We are in a very fast growth period for wireless technology. I'm not a cellular engineer (like Bill seems to be), but we have all seen the data speeds available go up and the costs go down for cellular based data in just the last few years.

The MIFI technology came even later with consumer available MIFI routers being only a very few years old.

I've said this before, but I really see the need for public wifi decreasing in importance every day. Cellular based access will continue to grow and prices will continue to fall.

ksanders said:

I've said this before, but I really see the need for public wifi decreasing in importance every day. Cellular based access will continue to grow and prices will continue to fall.

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I hope you're right at least on the prices opinion.

I have a dlink camera connected to the internet to monitor our house when we're cruising. I like to view it once a day. Using a MiFi unit to do so would burn through my 4 Gig allowance in a week or so. Until prices come down, public WiFi is the only practical way to do this.

ActiveCaptain said:

Especially if you're on the east coast, have your marina contact us. We've been working with a company that has a great model and fantastic expertise in designing and installing marina WiFi systems - it's all they do. We believe that instead of a marina asking you to not stream video, they should invite you to use NetFlix, YouTube, Skype, and all of the streaming you'd like. We've been involved with a half-dozen marinas using these new capabilities and the results have been outstanding. And since we're pretty close to marina management and their business practices, we're also able to help them see how to fund it and actually save money by installing the right stuff.

There are some marinas that won't be able to support this newer level of WiFi experience because the backend internet access just isn't there - although that's becoming rare too. But the time is about to end on accepting 500 kbps connectivity that comes and goes when you're at a marina. You'll see...

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We are north of St. Louis about 70-75 miles on the upper Mississippi in a rural area, thanks for the suggestion if you think it'll help I'll pass your info along. We used to have decent wifi but the provider lost a antenna in this area and the cost to repair was more than than it was worth to them for the number of customers they had. The marina had 2 choices as I understand between Hugh's Net or Blue Sky, they went with Blue Sky. It's very slow compared to AT&T 4G. My wife uses a laptop and I've thought about buying the hotspot service for my iPad so she can use that instead of the marinas wifi

timjet said:

I do wonder however why ActiveCaptain has promoted the use of public WiFi and has explained in his articles how to acquire WiFi signals from a considerable distance if using public WiFi carries the risks he's warned of.

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Because if you use a VPN while connected to public/open WiFi, you're quite safe. VPN use is also something that I've written extensively about over the last 4 years.

A VPN creates a secure tunnel going across an open WiFi/internet connection. No one between your computer and the internet access across the WiFi provider can see what you're accessing because it's totally encoded by the VPN. Your encrypted transactions are decrypted by the VPN in another location (generally in another city or country) and sent onto the location you intended it to go to.

Thanks for that reminder AC. I do remember reading your article on VPN a year or so ago.

timjet said:

I hope you're right at least on the prices opinion.

I have a dlink camera connected to the internet to monitor our house when we're cruising. I like to view it once a day. Using a MiFi unit to do so would burn through my 4 Gig allowance in a week or so. Until prices come down, public WiFi is the only practical way to do this.

Click to expand...

I have two dlink cameras on my boat and I check them a couple of times a day.

I'm really sure that they don't take that much bandwidth unless you're looking at them all the time.

I have a 30gig shared plan with at&t. It used to cost $7.50 a gig, but that went down last month.

That plan runs the internet access for my home, my and the wifes business, the boat, ipads, iphones, etc...

We watch movies, stream video, etc... and almost never run over.

ksanders said:

Marinas have no real business interest in providing wifi to their guests, except as a tool to increase customer happiness, which increases revenue in the end.

...

I've said this before, but I really see the need for public wifi decreasing in importance every day. Cellular based access will continue to grow and prices will continue to fall.

Click to expand...

I believe there is a lot of change coming with marina WiFi. I don't see it as a service any different from water, pump out, or floating docks. The typical boat's internet consumption hasn't doubled in the last couple of years. It has quadripled (and more). Marina WiFi systems put in 3-5 years ago can't keep up with that. And you can bet that our use for high bandwidth access will continue to skyrocket. I know that the software I'm working on right now counts on intermittent high bandwidth to accomplish some of the next generation things I'd like to provide (sharing live sensor data between users).

You can see some of the things we're telling marinas. Our Marina Minute goes out to thousands of marinas every Tuesday morning. It has a unique format that guarantees to only take about a minute to read. We typically get a few dozen responses. The Perfect Storm entry back in February drew hundreds of marinas asking questions and wanting more information to prepare for what's coming:
http://www.themarinaminute.com/2014/02/the-wifi-perfect-storm.html

Here's a follow on article talking about some of the changes coming with TV at marinas:
http://www.themarinaminute.com/2014/03/its-digital-world.html

I think marinas are going to step up over the next couple of years to provide exceptional WiFi access. We're seeing it start already - Marina Jack in Sarasota, Ft Pierce Municipal, Legacy in Ft Myers. These marinas now expect their customers to use streaming video while at the marina - for no extra charge. I was at Ft Pierce myself after their new installation. It was a Friday night with 40 boats online at the same time in the marina (there is remote monitoring that allows the WiFi company to view the load and they told me). I was streaming movies to 3 devices and tested my throughput on another device - 5 mbps still left for me. This was at 8 pm with 40 other users on too.

The app world is a connected world with hundreds of megabytes being updated weekly along with operating system updates and many other large data usages. The navigation world is alive with NOAA chart updates every week amounting to a gigabyte of download every month or so. Weather display is more animated and visual and requires megabytes of download. Cellular will always be available but the high bandwidth uses will likely be very expensive over our cruising life during the next decade. Things like Google Fiber (cheap, high bandwidth internet) won't be accessible over cellular - they'll need WiFi.

Today we're helping marinas recognize this future. WiFi is a great reason to pull someone from an anchorage into their facility. The model has to be right and it can't cost the boater anything extra. Remember too that there's a next generation of employees who can run their businesses or work for others from their boat. But they need high bandwidth, in general, to do it.

There are about a dozen marinas experimenting with this now. I'd bet there will be a hundred or more by summer 2015. I'd bet that many reading this would be tempted to go to a specific marina if they knew they had this kind of WiFi service.

But none of that is why I think it's going to explode. And I fully admit that this next statement will make some people's head explode. Implementing this type of exceptional WiFi at many marinas will actually save the marina money within 1 year. Given that, how many do you think will convert?

I don't want to quote it because its so long, but very good post AC!

Wifi, is just part of the portfolio of services that a marina offers. It will be attractive to some, and not so attractive to others.

For us, the important thing isnt wifi, its things like the proximity of shopping, and restaurants, etc... The general cleanliness, and even the pet friendliness is also very important.

We dont care about or consider the cost of our boats networking, and with LTE we can stream a high def movie, so "free wifi" wont bring us in. Same with laundry, and bathrooms. We have those, so they aren't a pull for us.

You're right, my head is exploding! But, please tell me why my head is exploding!

AC wrote, " I was at Ft Pierce myself after their new installation. It was a Friday night with 40 boats online at the same time in the marina (there is remote monitoring that allows the WiFi company to view the load and they told me). I was streaming movies to 3 devices and tested my throughput on another device - 5 mbps still left for me. This was at 8 pm with 40 other users on too."

Jeff, Will has done an excellent job at FPCM. There are 2 systems there. The first is the city's open system that is available in the area around the marina. Then there is the more secure system for the marina only that your log in has to be recognized. My question is just how much more secure would this be?

Moonstruck said:

The first is the city's open system that is available in the area around the marina. Then there is the more secure system for the marina only that your log in has to be recognized. My question is just how much more secure would this be?

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We used our VPN there. I don't like the security they have right now. The town has a public access requirement and we're trying to help them realize that the marina part of it should have a little more security since it's a paid service for marina guests.

Marina Jack and Legacy used good security measures. It involves a WPA password and an access code that you get when you check in. The access code allows access for 1 night, 1 week, 1 month, or 1 year. The code can only be used once. That's one of the techniques of limiting access (and increasing bandwidth for paying customers). The problem with only limiting access by WPA password is that the password gets widely known within 10 minutes of it being set. But WPA is needed to encrypt the traffic between devices on the router so it's needed.

ksanders said:

I don't want to quote it because its so long, but very good post AC!

Wifi, is just part of the portfolio of services that a marina offers. It will be attractive to some, and not so attractive to others.

For us, the important thing isnt wifi, its things like the proximity of shopping, and restaurants, etc... The general cleanliness, and even the pet friendliness is also very important.

We dont care about or consider the cost of our boats networking, and with LTE we can stream a high def movie, so "free wifi" wont bring us in. Same with laundry, and bathrooms. We have those, so they aren't a pull for us.

Click to expand...

The wifi problem at our marina would be enough to move if I didn't have AT&T 4G.

ActiveCaptain said:

The WiFi part of MiFi comes by default with WPA encryption.

Click to expand...

You mean Authentication, not encryption. Which I don't say to bust your chops, but because we shouldn't be so casual in the language.

Now for my mean culpa...

I said there was no meaningful difference between WPA and WPA2. That's not true.

"WPA1", if I can append the number used TKIP for encryption.
WPA2 still offers TKIP for those who want to use it, but mandates the more robust CCMP for encryption.

It was important for me to clarify my earlier statement because it was too casual and left out what really is an important bit.


There's also something I left out...

If anyone is setting up their own Wireless Access Point, if it has WPS or "Wi-Fi Protected Setup", then pay attention to this next bit.

If you activate it via an actual mechanical push-button, it's safe, as long as you protect physical access to the WAP. If it is a purely software based setup then there is a simple repair process that you must follow:

1) Uninstall your WAP and carefully carry it to the stern of your boat.
2) Drop it in the water.
3) Buy a new WAP with a push-button WPS.


Anyway, if you make sure that you use WPA2, choosing CCMP in the drop down menu (not TKIP) and have at least a 10 digit long alpha-numeric password that you keep to yourself, then you're actually pretty secure. Someone would typically have to associate with your WAP before your traffic becomes vulnerable.

Also, as I said, don't bother to hide your SSID. Anyone who knows enough to be a threat also knows how to use things called Beacons and Probe Responses to find you; at which point you've only suceeded in drawing their attention to you.

There IS a trick I like to use where I select an IP and Subnet Mask that limits me to just a few valid IP addresses which I then use up with stuff that never leaves the network. That's not perfect though since a disassociation flood will open up a window of opportunity for a hacker and it takes a bit of knowledge to play games with IP addresses anyway. More than a casual user has I mean.

Jbear said:

... so if you implement layer 2 isolation on the wireless are you saying you can still see someone else's traffic?

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The short answer is yes. Anyone who tells you differently is lying or doesn't know what they are talking about.

timjet said:

... is the connection between my computer and my MiFi unit secure also?

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The short answer is yes, but in different ways than a cellular connection or a VPN.

It's not perfect, but it's as good as it needs to be for the use it's being put to.

Billylll said:

I'm just saying a MiFi can be seen at quite a distance over water with the proper equipment.

Click to expand...

Only a few miles, really. Then Earth Bulge gets in the way.


More importantly, SEEING the traffic and READING the traffic are two different things.

AES is not trivially broken and is mainly vulnerable to brute force attacks, which take a lot of horsepower to break in a useful amount of time.

ksanders said:

I cannot speak for Active Captain, but he seems to have some influence with marinas. Perhaps he can help them engineer more security into their systems.

Click to expand...

The only thing a marina can do is to go full enterprise class with security by using an authentication server and IPS/IDS.

It's not actually a big deal to do from a technical standpoint but it does get into some money to do it right and nobody is likely to spend the money to do it right just to give it away for free.

ActiveCaptain said:

I believe there is a lot of change coming with marina WiFi.

Click to expand...

I don't.

Not with convergence already happening now. (802.21)

5 years from now it will be a done deal and there wont be a decent reason to bother with WiFi away from home or office.

MC Escher said:

You mean Authentication, not encryption. Which I don't say to bust your chops, but because we shouldn't be so casual in the language.

Click to expand...

Not to make a major thing about it but I most certainly meant encryption. It's the WPA key for encryption/decryption that provides access.

Ultimately what anyone connecting over WiFi should be concerned about is security. It is WPA encryption that provides that. The WPA password can be displayed on a billboard for everyone to see allowing anyone access. It's the private/public key encryption of WPA that provides the value to the WiFi user. That's the major difference from WEP.

This is all much too technical to worry about or debate.

ActiveCaptain said:

Not to make a major thing about it but I most certainly meant encryption. It's the WPA key for encryption/decryption that provides access.

Click to expand...

Except that what I am getting at is that there is more than one thing happening.

There is Association, Authentication & Access; then there is Encryption. It matters because two different Encryption standards exist for WPA2; TKIP & CCMP, and only one of them should be considered secure.

I am making what seems to be a highly technical distinction since the choices are user selectable and people should not accidentally be led to believe that merely selecting WPA is sufficient simply because nobody pointed this out to them. They need to select WPA2/CCMP in the user configuration menu.

ksanders said:

I don't want to quote it because its so long, but very good post AC!

Wifi, is just part of the portfolio of services that a marina offers. It will be attractive to some, and not so attractive to others.

For us, the important thing isnt wifi, its things like the proximity of shopping, and restaurants, etc... The general cleanliness, and even the pet friendliness is also very important.

We dont care about or consider the cost of our boats networking, and with LTE we can stream a high def movie, so "free wifi" wont bring us in. Same with laundry, and bathrooms. We have those, so they aren't a pull for us.

Click to expand...

You do realize with HetNet and SON you may no longer be the one choosing how your high speed data is delivered to your devices, using SIM card authentication many cellular carriers are off loading to 802.11AC networks and you might not even know that it's happened.
I'm glad the conversation remained civil. I'll shout it again AC is a fantastic product but it relies on a data connection at some point.
Judicious use of a VPN would be my choice for protecting my boats network.
Best,
Bill Lentz