Larry M and Hobo's outriggers

I'm ok with my shorter arms in my set up. The power and distance the tip of the arm can move is limited. The potential power of a arm that is 18 ft long must be awesome.

Funangler: Thanks for the photos. I like the way the arms fold back.

funangler said:

I'm ok with my shorter arms in my set up. The power and distance the tip of the arm can move is limited. The potential power of a arm that is 18 ft long must be awesome.

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Our poles are 20' of 2" schedule 80 aluminum. And you're right, the loading is incredibly high. You can almost feel the power through the A-frame and mast. We lost a swivel at termination point between the chain to wire last year. It was like a shot. We also hit a dead head. That got our attention.

interesting

Since my only experience with fins is with my Hat and I haven't experienced the boat without stabilizers I assumed the great tracking was at least partly due to the fins. Next time out I'll turn off the fins and pilot and see if steer a straight course. Then kick in the fins and see if it makes it dramatically better.

Scary said:

Since my only experience with fins is with my Hat and I haven't experienced the boat without stabilizers I assumed the great tracking was at least partly due to the fins. Next time out I'll turn off the fins and pilot and see if steer a straight course. Then kick in the fins and see if it makes it dramatically better.

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I haven't known many Hatteras without stabilizers but I've known some old ones without and that been the first thing new purchasers added. Hatteras seemed at the forefront of stabilizers with few problems. Some seemed to develop the art a little later. For instance, Nordhavn struggled a bit years ago. The number one failure or problem on the Atlantic Rally was stabilizers. Now however I don't hear of problems with them on Nordhavn's.

Soft chine boats don't put nearly the load on para vane poles as hard chine boats. The best boat for paravanes is a very round hull like an old troller. Wide hard chined boats have extremely strong righting moments and put heavy loads on the rigging. Perhaps a flexable pole or springs in the rigging would help. Would be nice to be able to dupe a system that's got some history that could be depended upon.

BandB said:

For instance, Nordhavn struggled a bit years ago. The number one failure or problem on the Atlantic Rally was stabilizers. Now however I don't hear of problems with them on Nordhavn's.

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The earlier stabilizers that failed during the Atlantic Rally were mostly due to inadequate cooling for continuous use and hydraulic hose failures. The ones installed now are very reliable and well engineered.

I think all of the stabilizer manufacturers learned valuable lessons from that event.

manyboats said:

... Perhaps a flexable pole or springs in the rigging would help....

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We have 8' of 1/2" 3 strand from the top of the poles to the wire to act as a shock absorber. You can see it stretch when loaded. We saw a Nordhavn that used a small tire in line for shock absorbing.

With my short arms I like no stretch at all I notice a drop in performance if I switch to something that stretches.

I'm very interested in the paravane idea. I'm not going to be crossing oceans on my boat, but I do intend to take her to Alaska and would also like to spend time on the west coast of Vancouver Island.

Eric, thanks for the explanation about hard and soft chines. It sounds like the loading forces will be less because of the soft chines on my boat.

My boat is in Anacortes. Does anyone have any recommendations for an experienced designer/installer that I could talk to in that area?
Lyle

Boydski said:

The earlier stabilizers that failed during the Atlantic Rally were mostly due to inadequate cooling for continuous use and hydraulic hose failures. The ones installed now are very reliable and well engineered.

I think all of the stabilizer manufacturers learned valuable lessons from that event.

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Yes, that was the ultimate test of several boats with them all going 3000+ miles in mixed conditions. But clearly they hadn't developed at that point, at least the ones Nordhavn was using. But now they seem rather trouble free, as much as anything on a boat is. At one time Paravanes were probably less trouble. Now I'd say they're more or at least more work. That's what it really comes down to. Stabilizers have ease of use and minimum impact on speed, typically only about 0.1 knots. Paravanes have a large cost advantage but more effort to use and they generally slow the boat more, about 0.5 knots.

I would be interested in the experiences of those here in terms of loss of speed using them. If you're going 15 knots then .5 isn't a big deal but if you're going 7 knots I would hope paravanes are not impacting speed that much.

BandB said:

...I would be interested in the experiences of those here in terms of loss of speed using them. If you're going 15 knots then .5 isn't a big deal but if you're going 7 knots I would hope paravanes are not impacting speed that much.

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I have no idea on active stabilizers but we trade-off some where between 1/2 to 3/4 of a knot @ ~7 knots with the fish in the water. We have a couple choices to change that, but everything is a compromise.

We can change the angle that the fish travels through the water which can add or subtract resistance or go with a smaller fish. We are running fish that are designed for 50-60' vessel for increase comfort. So far the set up has worked for us and is worth the trade off/compromise.

Larry M said:

I have no idea on active stabilizers but we trade-off some where between 1/2 to 3/4 of a knot @ ~7 knots with the fish in the water. We have a couple choices to change that, but everything is a compromise.

We can change the angle that the fish travels through the water which can add or subtract resistance or go with a smaller fish. We are running fish that are designed for 50-60' vessel for increase comfort. So far the set up has worked for us and is worth the trade off/compromise.

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That's what I'd seen as typical. So 7-10% of your speed at 7 knots, but your fuel efficiency is so good anyway, doesn't much matter. Only time it would be an issue would be strong currents against you.

On stabilizers, what we've seen has been negligible. What I've read has been 0.1 knot.

Larry M,
I see you attach in the center hole for the fish. Have you tried the fwd hole? It's possible the fish will work as well w a little less angle of attack and greatly reduce the load on the rigging.

Also running stranded SS wire should reduce the drag even further. Some skippers I ment in Prince Rupert like chain the best but chain must be very high drag. Metal (thin) fish wings should reduce drag and the "fuselage" of the fish could be modified into a more streamlined shape. Most are very blunt. You may be able to lower your drag to only loose 1/4 to 1/3 of a knot.

I'm number of things:

I love the amsteel blue. it has no stretch and I hear virtually no noise.

I followed Larry's advice and got the Stano Enterprise fish. not only do they seem perfect for this boat, but me not knowing any better I just throw in the water at full speed, they do once skip and then dive right down.

I just finished 36 hours with them and the one problem I had was caused by me.

my Fish are only running about 13 feet below water.

I like the amsteel also I put a rubber muffler mount in the line and that cut out the vibrations. I run my fish about 13 feet under water and never have them come close the surface. About 0.5 knot loss of speed also is noted.

I can hear and feel some low level vibration but it doesn't bother me and I don't think it's that noticeable.

I do lose about half a knot.

I too retrieve them by hand, but I'm thinking about system with a little hand winch.

I have a question, really out of curiosity.

When all is said and done with your various paravanes, counting all costs, how much are they costing you? I'm getting the impression that by the time everything is added up it's more than I initially thought.

And how long before repairs or replacement typically?

BandB said:

...On stabilizers, what we've seen has been negligible. What I've read has been 0.1 knot.

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That's very good efficiency. Is that for a FD recreational vessel?

BandB said:

I have a question, really out of curiosity.

When all is said and done with your various paravanes, counting all costs, how much are they costing you? I'm getting the impression that by the time everything is added up it's more than I initially thought.

And how long before repairs or replacement typically?

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In over 12000 miles with the fish in the water we have less than $600 in replacement parts and servicing other than painting the poles but that's optional.

manyboats said:

Larry M,
I see you attach in the center hole for the fish. Have you tried the fwd hole? It's possible the fish will work as well w a little less angle of attack and greatly reduce the load on the rigging.

Eric: If I reduce the angle, less downward force so, I sacrifice comfort.

Also running stranded SS wire should reduce the drag even further. Some skippers I ment in Prince Rupert like chain the best but chain must be very high drag. Metal (thin) fish wings should reduce drag and the "fuselage" of the fish could be modified into a more streamlined shape. Most are very blunt. You may be able to lower your drag to only loose 1/4 to 1/3 of a knot.

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I only have 4' of chain and that's to help lifting the fish in and out. Richard said he looses .5 knots with no chain. It's all a compromise.

Larry M said:

In over 12000 miles with the fish in the water we have less than $600 in replacement parts and servicing other than painting the poles but that's optional.

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What did they cost initially?

I think you'd lose more speed with a couple of barnacles than a bit of chain. I love Amsteel, I replaced both wire ropes on my big and small winches with it, no more rust, jaggers or sharp swages from the wire - it got recycled.

They were on Hobo when we bought her. We were told 12K. We had estimates of 10-15K when we were looking at another boat in the PNW. We had friends that had them installed last year and they were a tad under 15K without painting. Richard posted 10K for his in Ft Lauderdale last month.

If built well I spend very little on them and it depends on your boat. I have a steel boat and was will to do the design and work my self. I will admit it I was luck with the first design. Way cheaper then active fin it would have cost more then my boat to put those in.

The hardware is not that expensive overall.

Larry M said:

That's very good efficiency. Is that for a FD recreational vessel?

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No, semi-displacement or semi-planing or whatever term one is willing to accept for the day.

That's what I've read in discussions on stabilizers in general.

funangler said:

The hardware is not that expensive overall.

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You're right. A 20' piece of 2" schedule 80 aluminum is less than $175. 1/4" SS wire and a bunch of shackles and thimbles? Our fish, which are commercially available, are less than $200/each. Design is important particularly on wood or fiberglass boats but that's another post.

Design is critical.

Mine are designed do that the weakest part is the pole, as it's the cheapest to replace.

And it is, but I'll leave that fit a different thread.

The amsteel is great in that I really have little noise.

Stumbled across this video and thought others might learn from it too.

While i don't have them or even a boat worthy of stabilizers...

I would think that the .5 knt that it 'costs' in speed would have been lost anyhow due to slowing and tacking.

My concern would be snagging something or running them into the ground. when deployed you, for practical purposes basically have a 15' draft, 50'+ beam.