Larry M and Hobo's outriggers

Every time I read one of Larry's posts, my eyes are drawn to the outriggers on Hobo. I suppose Larry could be trolling for either REALLY big fish or the occasional submarine. But, I suspect there are stabilizers down there somewhere. If this is the case, I would love to hear about them (or maybe you can direct me to a link with similar info). The questions I have (if they are stabilizers) are:
* What is the generic term for that kind of stabilizer?
* Who made them (or are they your own creation)?
* When are they most useful?
* When are they not worth the effort to deploy?
* Is there a danger of the stabilizers striking the hull?
* Is there a danger of the stabilizers striking the prop?
* If the stabilizers snag a submarine, can you keep it?
* What is the step by step process to deploy everything?
* How long does it take to deploy everything?
* Could you switch on Hobo's autopilot and deploy them yourself?
* How do your stabilizers compare to the mechanically pivoting fins attached to the bottom of some trawlers?

seattleboatguy said:

What is the generic term for that kind of stabilizer?

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They are most commonly called paravanes (or fish).

* When are they most useful?

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They are useful for significantly reducing roll while underway in moderate or heavy seas.

* When are they not worth the effort to deploy?

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When you have hydraulic stabilizers (push a button on) or too many crab pots to deal with.

* How do your stabilizers compare to the mechanically pivoting fins attached to the bottom of some trawlers?

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The hydraulic stabilizers provide more roll control in all but following seas. The paravanes are very simple and are much less prone to breaking down. Sea Eagle has both, with the Paravanes available as a backup to the ABT stabilizers.

YMMV

seattleboatguy said:

Every time I read one of Larry's posts, my eyes are drawn to the outriggers on Hobo. I suppose Larry could be trolling for either REALLY big fish or the occasional submarine. But, I suspect there are stabilizers down there somewhere. If this is the case, I would love to hear about them (or maybe you can direct me to a link with similar info). The questions I have (if they are stabilizers) are:
* What is the generic term for that kind of stabilizer?
Paravanes
* Who made them (or are they your own creation)?
Bill Dawes, a commercial fisherman came up with the original design and were tweaked by Bill Davenport, who was a KK42 owner. Ours were installed before we bought Hobo.
* When are they most useful?
90% of the time in open water.
* When are they not worth the effort to deploy?
When you have flat seas.
* Is there a danger of the stabilizers striking the hull?
I guess that could happen but it's something we have never experienced.
* Is there a danger of the stabilizers striking the prop?
No. The design prevents that.
* If the stabilizers snag a submarine, can you keep it?
No.
* What is the step by step process to deploy everything?
Leave the dock and drop the poles. Be in water at least 25' deep and deploy the fish at less than .5 knots. There's a little more to it. But you get the idea.
* How long does it take to deploy everything?
A couple of minutes.
* Could you switch on Hobo's autopilot and deploy them yourself?
Not necessary since you speed is almost zero when I deploy or retrieve the fish.
* How do your stabilizers compare to the mechanically pivoting fins attached to the bottom of some trawlers?
Simpler, less maintenance and about 25,000 dollars.

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Beebe's book, Voyaging under Power, is a good read. Also the archives have some discussions about paravanes.

Commonly called "Flopper Stoppers".
Richard on Dauntless, who posts on this forum, just installed them.
He has promised to post a detailed account of the process and the results.

I made my own and would rather sell the boat then be without them. I use mine in waves greater then 4 ft beam sea's. I can place them out Or retrieve in under 5 minute.

HopCar said:

Commonly called "Flopper Stoppers".

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Flopper Stoppers are actually not quite the same thing as paravanes. They are hinged plates that are used to control roll at anchor. Paravanes are birds that are used underway. Sea Eagle has both.

funangler said:

I made my own and would rather sell the boat then be without them. I use mine in waves greater then 4 ft beam sea's. I can place them out Or retrieve in under 5 minute.

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with 4 foot beam seas my scuppers are under water every other wave

This is the best $10,000 I have ever spent in my entire life.
The only thing I was wondering about, is if I can deploy them on the ICW to deal with those ...ing wakes.

I only can't believe that it took 7,000 nm rolling every day for 400 days to get it done

and yes, as Parks reminds everyone every few days, details are coming.

The delay has been for two reasons, I want to get the few modifications out of the way. I did add a stay between the fly bridge and the gunnell today. But that looks to be it. I also just adjusted the fore and aft guys.

the other reason, it that until I get home, it is a pia to transerfer pictures from phone to laptop to on line.

So, I should be home in two weeks, so by June 1, all will be divulged.:lol:

I change the depth of my to run as little as 5 feet if needed. Like when anchor out at the beach or running across known shallow spots .

funangler said:

I change the depth of my to run as little as 5 feet if needed. Like when anchor out at the beach or running across known shallow spots .

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We only shorten ours up when anchored in shallow water They sure do dampen the roll.

In post #3, I referenced 25' of water. Our fish are 15' deep at rest. We use 25' only as a rule of thumb for deployment. We've run shallower but it is a little stressful. So far we haven't snagged the bottom.

Funangler: Do you have any pictures of your set up you can post?

Richard: We're looking forward to see the final install.

"Flopper Stoppers are actually not quite the same thing as paravanes. They are hinged plates that are used to control roll at anchor. Paravanes are birds that are used underway. Sea Eagle has both."

Scott I think it's a regional thing. When I use the term Flopper Stopper I'm referring to the whole rig, booms, vanes or hinged plates, cables, etc.

On that subject, has anyone used the hinged plates Scott is referring to? Do they help?

Back when I was in high school, my Dad and a buddy installed them on the strangest boat you've ever seen. It was a wooden Cuban sailboat hull about thirty feet long. It had a huge live well right in the middle with holes to the sea and a single engine.

I can't really describe this thing. It was two stories high. It had a big opening in the house right in the middle that a big beam sea could wash right through.

The windows where aluminum awning type from a builders supply. The way you got to the second floor was by climbing regular hardware store aluminum ladders fastened to the side.

This thing looked so top heavy you'd swear in would tip over at the dock.

My dad's buddy cruised this thing from Miami to Turks and Caicos and back, and lived!

The flopper Stoppers worked. I imagine all the lead pigs in the bilge helped as well.

Wxx3 said:

and yes, as Parks reminds everyone every few days, details are coming.

So, I should be home in two weeks, so by June 1, all will be divulged.:lol:

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So Parks can remind people another 7 times assuming every other day?

Hobo and Phoenix Hunter have the same setup with the "A" frame support system with the poles--a distinctive, beefy look, to be sure. Mine were built by a fellow in Anacortes, commissioned by 2 PO's back. They really make a difference in beam seas. Personally, I wouldn't trade them for hydraulic stabilizers--paravanes are pretty much maintenance free. There are no hydraulics, seals or complicated systems to be concerned about and there is no drag to affect speed if they are not deployed. Typically you will loose about 0.5-0.75 kts when they are deployed and I assume hydraulic stabilizers have a similar effect on speed. Many commercial fishermen on the west coast have some sort of similar system installed, but without the "A" frame.

Other people have "rolling chocks" "bilge keels" or "bat wings" installed instead. Aventura, a KK42 in the PNW has rolling chocks and the PO of that vessel told me chocks seemed to reduce pitch as well as roll as they run for the 2/3 of the LWL. These are a cheaper installation, I believe.

Jim

I have a rig that a sail boat person would devise.
I had also wanted to be able to lower the mast easily, as I can now.

So they devised a system that enabled that and the outrigger pole itself, should be the weakest link, should i snag something.

I now really appreciate the guys that i can adjust. \
Also, it's light enough that I can retrieve the birds by hand (once stopped)

I have added a little stay between the fly bridge and the gunnell, and that was after the big test it got in 8 to 10 ft seas on the beam for 4 f...ing hours. IT is still unclear to me why i didn't abort that fiasco sooner, but then...

Are your birds made of steel or aluminum?

Can they be made of AL to be easier to handle?

Mine are zinc-plated steel. You definitely have to be careful when you are deploying and retrieving them as they can certainly damage the hull, caprail and decks. When not in use, they sit in "holsters" on the gunnels, supported by the caprail. If were making them again, I would I would use that high density plastic stuff from which cutting boards are made.



The photo shows the plywood "V" bracket on the gunnel and the rubber pad on the caprail (in the process of being refinished).

Jim

Mine are from stano enterprises.
$125 each plus shipping.
The wing is plywood, nice as it helps buoyancy and does not damage whatever it hits.

I've posted a picture.

On Larry's advice, I got one size smaller and though I have nothing to compare it to, it sends perfect.

I will get a second pair before I leave for Holland.

Having never been on a boat with Paravanes my experience is limited. We have stabilizers. But I would say this based on personal experience and a lot of reading. I think having one or the other is crucial to full enjoyment of boating on coastal waters or offshore. Every one I've known to add one or the other has only wished they'd done it long ago. We move at speeds that make stabilizers the more appropriate choice. However, at the speeds most trawler owners prefer I can't tell one way is better than the other. Stabilizers are more expensive. Paravanes are more work. Stabilizers more prone to problems that you can't easily fix from deck.

I will say the quality of stabilizers has improved. Still, that's an area to be careful. Choosing based on cost can end up giving you many more problems than you want. Some are relatively problem free but others are not. Also, installation in the after market is difficult and I'd make sure I had someone very familiar with the boat, with factory installations and recommendations on the boat, and with the stabilizer chosen.

Paravanes or stabilizers will eliminate a lot of very uncomfortable days and nights.

Stabilizers

Active fin stabilizers have the ability to improve tracking in quartering following seas. Are paravanes as effective.

Scary said:

Active fin stabilizers have the ability to improve tracking in quartering following seas. Are paravanes as effective.

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Good question. I can't answer that one but maybe Boydski can since he has both on his Nordhavn.

I know that our autopilot has never been overpowered or not able to hold a course but how tight?

The motion is different with active fins vs paravanes, almost like a catamaran. With both fish in the water, we become `43 feet wide.

Scary said:

Active fin stabilizers have the ability to improve tracking in quartering following seas. Are paravanes as effective.

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My personal experience is that the Active Fin Stabilizers tend to fight the steering more in following seas than the paravanes. I'm pretty sure that is something that can be fixed by adjusting the gain (speed on ABT's) on the stabilizers and Autopilot settings, but with 'normal' settings that seems to be the case.

Keep in mind that the birds (paravanes) provide less roll stabilization, so that may be masking the effect. When the corkscrew motion of the boat starts to get annoying in following seas (fins), switching the autopilot to "Work" mode usually calms it down.

BandB's comment above reminded me of running north off the Oregon coast last summer. The weather had calmed down considerably and the crew didn't think the stabilizers were doing anything, so I switched them off. The boat started rolling around like a drunk sailor and I heard from the back of the boat, "turn them on, turn them on!" :lol:

They do make offshore travel much more pleasant.

HopCar said:

Scott I think it's a regional thing. When I use the term Flopper Stopper I'm referring to the whole rig, booms, vanes or hinged plates, cables, etc.

On that subject, has anyone used the hinged plates Scott is referring to? Do they help?

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Thanks for the clarification. The regional thing makes sense.

The hinged plates work really well for anchorages that are exposed to large swell (like many along the California Coastline). They are also very popular with Nordhavn's in the Mediterranean, where the constant swell can make some of the anchorages very uncomfortable.

A side benefit is that when put out the flopper stoppers, no one anchors anywhere near you...

Regarding bilge keels (or rolling chocks) as stabilizers, I find they have only a very minor dampening effect. I have them, and the boat still rolls very uncomfortably until I raise the sails.

IMO they may help very slightly, but nowhere near the effect that either paravanes, fin stabilizers, or sails have on reducing the rolling.

I find my paravanes are very heavy and are difficult to haul up over the rail. Has anyone rigged lifting tackle?

XsBank
Mine also are pretty heavy and at present I hand haul them to the arm tops before raising the arms and then lowering the fish into their stow bracket.
I am thinking of installing a small winch (sail type) mid ships on the transom to assist. Or one either side, which ever is the easiest to accomplish.

Cheers
Benn

Xsbank said:

I find my paravanes are very heavy and are difficult to haul up over the rail. Has anyone rigged lifting tackle?

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look at the way some of the N46's are rigged, they winch them back to the stern so you have minimal dead lifting.

The P.O. of Volunteer had designed and rigger the paravanes with swaged bronze balls at about 16" intervals on the down cable. He built a couple handles that had a matching cup with slot that to pull the vanes you lifted the pole to vertical, and reached down and pulled them up with the handles.. they were heavy and you needed to be going dead slow for it to be do able.
HOLLYWOOD

Hollywood ,
I have to be stopped to haul mine otherwise there is to much resistance.
That is where a trip line can be helpful so that the fish can be tripped over on their back and easier to haul in.
But this also introduces an extra line that can be fouled.

Cheers
Benn

My setup is unique my arms fold back on to the aft deck. I use a boat pole and grab the downline on the fish walk them back and pull them out. I can do this at less then 2 knots. The system is simple and easy. I rapidly built the system not expecting it to work well on the first build and have to go back and clean some welds and buy some solid eye for attachment points. I think I spent less then 600 dollars on the build.

They can be quite dangerous.

15' deep is the norm but I've heard from fishermen in Alaska that if run on a shorter chain they (the fish) can in rough seas come up out of the water and crash through the cabin windows.

Eric,
I run mine at 17'.
That is the reason I am going to extend my arms to 18' at the next haul out and before my trip south to Tasmania.
Cheers
Benn

manyboats said:

They can be quite dangerous.

15' deep is the norm but I've heard from fishermen in Alaska that if run on a shorter chain they (the fish) can in rough seas come up out of the water and crash through the cabin windows.

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They can also go right thru the plywood side of a flybridge. The P.O. of Volunteer had one take flight on a trip up the west coast and go almost through. He got quite a few comments from fishermen in Ft. Bragg as he hacked and sawed it loose. When you consider the loads and kinetic energy it is not hard to see the possibilities.
HOLLYWOOD