While cars and marathons and getting into your bathtub all have their dangers, they never pushed us to learn anything. I guess our underlying assumption was that help was always close. It's when we started talking about long trips on the water. In fact, right now would be a good example as I imagine we're at least 4 hours from any hospital or medical attention as we're off the coast of Washington. Coast Guard could get to us but that would take a while. So that was our impetus to learn. I'm just glad we didn't wait until there was a problem or tragedy before realizing we needed to. In fact at the moment there are 8 of us on board and 7 of us have had training.
First Aid While on the Boat
- Thread starter dannc
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Heart disease is the number one cause of death in the US - higher than any of the trauma events you mentioned. The rate is equivalent to about 5 jumbo jets crashing every day. It's not unreasonable to prepare yourself for that especially given the age and demographics of the typical trawler cruising couple.
Gulf Comanche
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Started looking around on the internet for AED, found several outfits that sell re-certified AED's, will send the link late as computer having issues. Any problem w/ re-certified AED's? The price for a Phillips was $795 or so, $1195 for new on Amazon.
Gulf Comanche
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Re-certified AED link:
Recertified AEDs - Refurbished Automated External Defibrillators - AED.com
Recertified AEDs - Refurbished Automated External Defibrillators - AED.com
Philips is a quality company and their AED is pretty good. The thing you want to make sure about is the availability of batteries. Because of the technology, they are not rechargeable and typically have to be replaced every 4 years (at about $200 per change). Make sure the pads are available too (usually about $45 each). They are disposable and expire after about 2 years typically. And when they expire, you need to throw them out - it's not a fake expiration - they dry up and are much less effective.
If you're buying an AED today, you want it to be a biphasic type. The Philips is biphasic.
I personally like the Defibtech models. I don't think the screen is needed either - just a good voice alert and a trivially simple user-interface is all that's needed. Our town bought 5 Defibtech's + an additional one for the ambulance (which also had a cardiac monitor + manual defibrillator). I was the one who put together a maintenance program for them and checked them whenever I was in town. They're quite nice. I've used them in bad weather outdoors too and they are weather-resistant.
But of course, having an AED isn't nearly as important as having the training about how to use one. If it were me, I'd take the class first and see which simulator they trained me with. Then I'd look to get the real model for that simulator. The prices of all these things are going to be about the same unless you get into the professional models.
Jbear
Senior Member
My wife is an RN. I just asked her the question how many people saved using CPR? She said maybe 5. Not great odds but at least a shot. I was a CPR instructor and a lot has changed. I did save a lady choking in the supermarket one day. Just good knowledge to have. Kinda like knowing how to bleed your fuel system, when you need to do it it's nice to know how.
Jeff
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Jobe…
You keep going continuously, with the minimal pauses possible, even when you change places to have a rest.
Reason being exactly as Active Captain pointed out - apart from in drowning, spontaneous cardiac activity hardly ever returns without a 'shock'. So as he rather neatly put it, you are attempting to stop the clock before those 4 mins of no brain circulation are exceeded, until (hopefully), someone with a defibrillator turns up. The problem with defibs is the cost. They are not cheap, and heck, even when we are talking the local GP's surgery, the number of time one would use it in anger is usually so infrequent it is hard to justify the cost, but accreditation requirements usually come into play there. For the average Jo Blow boater, unless you are made of money, I can't see many having one on board. However, as pointed out, all other rescue services now do. They are 'who you're gonna call' - and damn quick..
We do carry an AED and the made of money thing doesn't fit in my mind when you're talking about all the things boaters buy or spend money on that are as much or more than the cost of one. A refurbished unit is a reasonable choice for a boat. Really you're buying it for a single use at most (might get more but you're just thinking that one time) so not subject to the work a paramedic unit would get.
Andy G
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Gee, I don't know Pete, a $1,000.
I pay that on my car insurance every year, haven't had a crash in 30 years.
I have a EPIRB that cost me $500, really doubt that I will ever use it.
It sounds like these defibrillators may be life savers, and with all these old people hanging around me these days, maybe I should be looking after them.
PS, I think this has been a very informative thread. Occasionally TF does throw them up.
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Gee, I don't know Pete, a $1,000.
I pay that on my car insurance every year, haven't had a crash in 30 years.
I have a EPIRB that cost me $500, really doubt that I will ever use it.
It sounds like these defibrillators may be life savers, and with all these old people hanging around me these days, maybe I should be looking after them.
PS, I think this has been a very informative thread. Occasionally TF does throw them up.
Put like that Andy, and BandB, you have a point. However, I seriously doubt, (but would be happy to be proved wrong), that you could get an auto defib here in Oz for as little as $1000. If so, then yes, it is certainly worth looking into.
timjet
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Thanks to all who have contributed and especially to AC for his insight and the link to his slides. Because of this thread my wife and I are signed up for a red cross 1st aid course this weekend.
AED outlet and a few others advertise recertified for around $1000 with some less. Now I don't know if they'll ship to Australia or what the local pricing there is like.
That's great to hear. I think you're probably like me as I recall reading about the course at the Maritime school and thinking how it was just something I should have done long before.
That plus having a medical kit on board do give us more comfort. Now we are going to the extreme I guess in subscribing to the services of MedAire. We figured on it as a form of insurance.
For those looking at medical kits, here's an interesting flyer and while it is an advertising piece it has some good information on types of injuries for which they receive calls. Also I found it interesting that 65% of the requests for medical assistance occur when the vessel is not cruising.
http://www.medaire.com/docs/default-source/yacht-documents/medaire-infographics-fnl.pdf?sfvrsn=2
AED's are regulated medical devices. In the US, they required FDA approval before they can be sold. Australia has their own medical device registration requirements. A reseller cannot just ship them without having them potentially confiscated.
Australian prices for AED's will probably be double the US price.
In most states there must be a Medical Director. This is not unlike ordering the prescription medications part of a medical kit. We got ours through MedAire and part of the process was having had training and credentials necessary.
Once you get this or any other regulated devices and/or medications it is essential too that you maintain records and control much as a medical facility would do. For a device it includes maintenance records. For medications it includes date and quantity purchased and all records of use leading to current on hand quantity. There is a responsibility that comes with all of this.
I just chatted with AED and here is their response on ordering. Cut and paste including misspelling.
Yes, we provide the prescription needed to own the AED. But, we do reccommend you purchase the AED management program that we offer through En-pro which does provide medical direction and a medical director. If not purchased that must be taken care of on your end. It would be your responsibility to make sure you had a medical director.
So you can just order and they will ship and leave it to you to fulfill any obligation of having a medical director.
AusCan
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They are around $2400 in Australia from St John's Ambulance. Available to anyone; although a short training course is recommended.
I'm lucky to have had dozens of work related safety courses including First Aid, CPR, Defib use, firefighting etc, and even luckier that I have had limited opportunity to seriously using it. Only once at work and once on the street.
I think one of the most useful aspects of regular first aid training is that it helps you stay calm in the midst of a stressful situation. You have some idea of what to do; you take control and act in the best way you know how, rather than adding to the panic or just being a stunned onlooker.
I would highly recommend a first aid course and a GOOD first aid kit on any boat. Most department store type kits aren't very well stocked.
That is true, but the context of my comment was regarding people making comments about the safety of cruising on a boat, ie, pirates, storms, sinking boats, icebergs, sea monsters, etc. People are far more likely to have a heart attack than die boating. People under rate their chances of a heart attack, the familiar, vs dieing in a hurricane while fighting off pirates to port and sea monsters to starboard, all the while dodging icebergs ie, the unfamiliar.
I have been pondering this since this thread was carved out the other discussion....
My IMPRESSION, right or wrong, is that a many/most of the people cruising in trawlers are older. That certainly will be true in our case. If this is true, having CPR training and and AED handy could easily save someone's life. We might be the only nearby boat that can quickly render aide.
Later,
Dan
We're constantly reminded here about the possible liability one assumes regarding boat damage when someone attempts to assist a fellow boater in need, such as towing.
What exposure is there, if any, with attempting medical assistance?
Personally, if I was the best option to help someone in need, I wouldn't hesitate, liability or not.
It's a shame that this issue even needs addressing.
What exposure is there, if any, with attempting medical assistance?
Personally, if I was the best option to help someone in need, I wouldn't hesitate, liability or not.
It's a shame that this issue even needs addressing.
There is definitely risk of liability. We're trained, using a service directing us, the right equipment, but if it comes to a life vs. worrying about liability, saving the person always wins.
Also, the suits against "Good Samaritans" have been mostly eliminated with changes of laws in many places, although those laws don't generally apply to trained professionals. Actually more the risk of liability in being trained to assist and having the equipment but not trying.
It is a shame but it is a good question.
The answer depends on the law in a given US state or other country. Some states have Good Samaritan's laws which protects a person rendering aide to others.
Later,
Dan
Bill Ranson
Senior Member
Active Captin.....Does Defender carry AEDs? Discount? I thought there ere some that were made for wet conditions or maybe just the continer or case is water proofed.
