All chain rode versus rope

Moonstruck said:

Fernando, I like your set up, but poly? I have always used nylon because of the stretching ability. It takes the shock out of the line, and will not float on the surface when the rode is slack. Poly is also affected more by UV rays, and the short broken fibers are rough on the hands. Any particular reason that you are using poly?

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My guess is its an English is his second language thing and he is really using nylon.

I used the expression "all chain mentality" that I picked up from another member here but I think it goes further than that.

Look at our boats. Heavy. Big and heavy. "Bigger is better" is wallowing around in this mentality also. Even my boat for 30' and 8 tons is heavy chunk of boat. Most say look at the anchor specs and then get the next size up. Bigger is better. Balderdash w what the anchor manufacturers say. What do they know? And the word bigger is almost the same as the word heavy.

It should be no surprise that trawler owners should gravitate to bigger and heavier. Look at trawler boats. The single most descriptive word to describe a trawler is heavy. That's even what they were called before the word trawler came along. Heavy Cruisers. And what can be bigger and heavier than a north sea trawler? Not many things in this world.

Bigger is better. Is it true? Relative to anchors of course it's true. If you keep all the many other variables the same and get a bigger anchor it will hold a boat in place better. Of course the anchor being heavier the boat will be heavier and at the least desirable end and it will cost more. Both bad.

But Fortress Anchors have shown us that heavier is not better relative to holding power. The very fact that the highest holding power anchor in the world is also the lightest shows us that the anchor design is most important. Clearly the anchor design is the dominating factor in performance .... not weight.

And it has been said and generally accepted that chain in the rode establishes and maintains more catenary in the rode. Dashew and others thought to be in the know have said over and over that in a big blow w a high holding power anchor all catenary will be pulled out of the rode even if it's all chain. So catenary has squat to do w holding power w HP anchors. In defense of catenary however it has a significant effect on setting performance IMO.

So from a standpoint of holding power chain in the rode has little at best to do w holding power.

I think the biggest advantages to a chain rode is convenience and catenary while the anchor is being set.

But if an anchor will set dependably w/o chain why use it?

Convenience. That's what it boils down to.

But convenience is not to be sneered at. It can be very important. Most all of us are old and pulling anchor with a capstan is work. Not good for many backs (mine included). Probably the biggest reason the Claw is so popular is that they hang so easily on the bow. And Bruce anchors were hugely popular in the 70s when most of our trawlers were made and adorned w a Bruce or Claw anchor. Most other anchors will require special arrangements be made on the bow and most of us have other things to do so there the Bruce and Claws proudly sit.

But re the rode choice if you can get over the convenience factor it looks like nylon line is better than chain. But as a boat gets bigger using line gets less and less convenient until all ships use all chain. Can you imagine a ship's crew weighing anchor w line over a capstan? For that matter on a 55' trawler? Ever seen a 20' boat w all chain?

So it looks to me that the choice is dependent on convenience. When line can't be handled conveniently chain is the way to go. Which is better has most to do w the size of your boat. Or better put the size of your anchor. If I had a 55lb anchor I'd probably immediately switch to chain. I may anyway on one rode ........ for convenience.

Left out on this post are considerations re the line to chain splice and the possible wear on the line going over the gypsy. Also the need for chain or cable on coral bottoms.

ranger42c said:

Sounds like maybe both situations were avoidable.

Maybe their chain leader was very short? Too short?



-Chris

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75 ft chain, 75+ ft nylon, they were anchored in 35 ft of water.

Don

Thanks. Capt Bill is correct in his assessment. I have confused the ropes. It is nylon and according to my wife, it is so smooth at touch that it feels like silk.

I am happy with your opinions because I was reluctant with the main arrangement. When in Rome do like the romans. So far the only justification I found for 100% chain is maintenance

Thanks

Bay Pelican said:

75 ft chain, 75+ ft nylon, they were anchored in 35 ft of water.

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Hmmm.... well and sometimes it's just bad luck.

I've not anchored near coral, so haven't encountered a situation where the rope portion could somehow become entangled and then get cut in two...

OTOH, if we had different holding ground around here (not so much mud), I wouldn't necessarily use a rope/chain rode... To me, the rode composition is very situational...

-Chris

The first issue with anchoring is where you do it. The selection of anchor chain and or rode might vary based on the first issue. Where I now anchor in the NW is very different than where I used to anchor Mid ICW east coast.,and both differ from the VI. I see little point in arguing rode or chain they both have their place. Lots of chain in the bow costs in $ and boat ride safety and performance. So if you anchor where you don't need lots of chain why Cary the weight. If you anchor on your way to Alaska its hard to have too much and best to have a boat that can handle the weight.

>The very fact that the highest holding power anchor in the world is also the lightest shows us that the anchor design is most important. Clearly the anchor design is the dominating factor in performance .... not weight.<

Perhaps AFTER the anchor is set , but it takes weight to get thru some bottoms and grass..

The Fortress is a knock off of a WWII Danforth , and suffers from the same hassle.

In a reversing situation the Danforth can pull and have to reset it self .

A high windage boat can drift travel fast enough to plane the Steel Danforth , never mind the aluminum copy.

OGG the inventor of the Danforth anchor , in his book, gives the cure.

2 anchors one in front , one in the rear , lead aboard fwd.

This then becomes what today is referred to as a Bahama Moore , probably the safest anchor system .

With practice the stern anchor is a 3 or 4 min job , regardless of the boat size.

FF said:

>

With practice the stern anchor is a 3 or 4 min job , regardless of the boat size.

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Yeah 3-4 min to set up and an hour to undo once the rodes twist or foul after the boat swings around a few times

Don't care for anchors fore and aft. If you get any significant wind from either side of the boat the pull on the rodes will be very high.

But most anchoring is done in the calm part of the day. And sometimes the anchorage is so small it's the safest thing to do.

Almost did it once … and we should have. Banged on a rock at 2am. A third anchor on one side could limit one's movement even further.

And if there are other boats near it could be a tangled mass of boats at some point some being on chain and others on a line rode.

After being in AK so long anchoring in crowded anchorages is something I'm leery of.

The solution to wind that clocks around is the port Washington mooring SX. This system was developed many years ago using three Danforth type anchors each set 60 degrees separation with 60-90 foot of chain linked to a ring that a single rode is attached to. This system can be set from a dinghy with some time and effort. Excellent for a self maintenance mooring or hurricane rig. Not so good for short term unless you enjoy spending a couple of hours setting and retrieving your rig. I throw this in here because it can be useful to know about for certain longer term mooring and it can be carried on a boat and used Danforths are cheap.

The Bahamian moor was probably developed when most of us were in diapers....or certainly way before.

Sure if the rodes tangle it's a mess...even a bigger mess if you let your boat sink overnight...it is NOT an anchor fore and aft in the strictest sense. Plus...it's not really a long term anchoring technique...but for awhile, if monitored can be fine.

I just can't believe some responses and total lack of thinking just how smart some of the rest of us are.

Any anchoring situation requires oversight..and hopefully if using a Bahamian moor..you have the foresight to know in 24 hours how and when you are going to swing. If in doubt...either don't do it or monitor the rodes carefully.

It was developed for specific reasons, not for just any old situation....however it can be adapted it you are smart enough.

Folks that have a problem with a Bahama moore need to refine the technique a bit.

On our boat the fwd anchor is deployed as normal.60CQR , 60H Danforth or 60 Bruce.

The stern anchor , usually a Danforth 20H is simply lowered from the stern.

The anchor 3/8 or 7/16 line is walked coiled fwd to the bow.

A tug on the aft line will set the anchor , depending on the water depth scope is paid out and the line secured on the bow.

The stern line scope is either tossed in the water or laid on the fwd deck to go over as needed.

In the AM on departure it takes zero effort to coil the line , pass the coil over or under the larger line and thats it.

In a narrow river its usually 12+ hours so you are on the bow anchor that was set first.

The stern line is walked aft and coiled as you go and the 20H is simply hand pulled as the stern is once again over it so its a simple yank to upset. A sailboat sheet winch P&S is the next upgrade


Should the wind have shifted 180 deg the stern anchor line (now bow line )is simply uncoiled some more until you are over the bow , and the windlass hauls it into its chocks.

The windlass is now used (mine is hyd) OR the boat motored over the old stern anchor till straight up and snubbed.

Way will break out the anchor , which can now be carried with its line aft for the next night.
Even in more open conditions when the 35H is used its no big deal to carry aft and stow.

The stern anchor is a nice emergency brake , we deploy it when waiting for the rare bridge (air height under 12FT) to open on time.

For an extreme wind abeam with the set deployed simply adding scope fore and aft works well , and a bonus is they will hold the boat head to the high wind with no dodging.

Cant get better than THAT!

FF,
I'm trying to get my head around this. How do you "toss scope"?

What are you doing on the bow w the stern anchor line? Why don't you make the stern rode fast at the stern?

Sounds like you're drifting aft on current to pull the light stern anchor.

If the current changed you'd need to put the stern anchor line on a floating ball, go fwd and weigh the bow anchor as usual and go back for the stern anchor on the ball.

I'd like to know what you're talking about. Am I even close?

manyboats said:

FF,
I'm trying to get my head around this. How do you "toss scope"?

What are you doing on the bow w the stern anchor line? Why don't you make the stern rode fast at the stern?

Sounds like you're drifting aft on current to pull the light stern anchor.

If the current changed you'd need to put the stern anchor line on a floating ball, go fwd and weigh the bow anchor as usual and go back for the stern anchor on the ball.

I'd like to know what you're talking about. Am I even close?

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Because then it wouldn't be a Bahamian Moor...it would be a stern anchor....

FF said:

Folks that have a problem with a Bahama moore need to refine the technique a bit.

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You lost me at hand setting an anchor then hoping the stern anchor sets itself properly when the tide shifts, leaving line coiled on deck to, hopefully, pay out on it's own and using 3/8 or 7/16 line for anchor line. But I guess that system may work on a small boat.

The reality is Bahamian moors are rarely used or needed. And if there are other boats anchored near you and they are not moored the same way as you, it could make for a long night with lots of shouting.

Of course now that I think about it what you describe is not really what is though of as a Bahamian moor. In a Bahamian moor as I've known it, both anchors are set and the boat is set almost equally between them so that when the tide shifts the boat changes position very little between the two anchors. Hence, the boat is moored in place.

In your example, at least the way I read it, your boat is going to drift quite a ways before coming tight on the stern anchor. And then drift back a ways again, if you stay long enough for the tide to change back, before coming tight on the bow anchor again.

That is not what I would call a Bahamian moor.

psneeld said:

Any anchoring situation requires oversight..and hopefully if using a Bahamian moor..you have the foresight to know in 24 hours how and when you are going to swing. If in doubt...either don't do it or monitor the rodes carefully.

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I'd say monitoring is about your only choice. Because even Carnac the Magnificent is not going to be able to tell you exactly how your boat is going to swing potentially multiple times in 24 hours after you've anchored.

Capt.Bill11 said:

I'd say monitoring is about your only choice. Because even Carnac the Magnificent is not going to be able to tell you exactly how your boat is going to swing potentially multiple times in 24 hours after you've anchored.

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I'm no Carnak but I know which way the tide runs and much of the time the way the wind blows...so...yes I have a pretty good predictor of which way I'll swing..not always but much of the time...

The Bahamian moor was desveloped for a reason...do you know what it was for without Chapman's or Wikipedia?

And who says they aren't used much???..we have has a few on here say they use them when appropriate.

The idea here is to share your perspective and knowledge and not necessarily attempt to drive everyone else to your point of view.

Your points have been made now let's get over it and move on.

psneeld said:

The Bahamian moor was desveloped for a reason...do you know what it was for without Chapman's or Wikipedia?

And who says they aren't used much???..we have has a few on here say they use them when appropriate.

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Why yes, I was fully aware of what it is and what it's used for without having to Google it. I've even used it once or twice myself.

I did not say they were not used at all. And I stand by my statement that it is not used that often. I think I can count on two hands (OK maybe I'd need to use a toe or two) the number of boats I've seen anchored that way in the last 40 years or so of boating. Even in the Bahamas.

If done right and any other close by boats are using it, it can be a useful technique in some specific situations.

>You lost me at hand setting an anchor then hoping the stern anchor sets itself properly when the tide shifts,<

We have had great luck, if the stern anchor is firm with a hand pull it does not need 100HP and a 2000lb tug to set any better.

What amazes me is anchoring in the AICW where the stream chosen for O nite is perhaps 100 ft wide the boat (50ft) turns with the tide and has never (that we could hear or observe) touched either bank.

Even with a 45 ft tri that was 24 ft wide , it has never been a problem.

Yes a true Bahama moore would stretch the stern anchor further out than just the length of the boat , but inshore in 10 or 15 ft of water the boats 50 ft plus 20-50 ft more line keeps the boat in basically one place.

Far better in the crowded NE than 100ft of line 50 ft of boat and a 300ft clear circle requirement.

Sounds like the rope portion of the equation was not properly maintained. Old, frayed or salt water soaked never allowed to dry out. I believe that is the issue. I replace mine every couple of years. If the rope is very stiff. I soak is fresh water and rinse. then allow to air dry before storing in the anchor locker. After a few years I replace the rope and chain. New is now main anchor old is back up.

I have a new 600' 5/8" line at West waiting for pickup, along with a 22 lb Rocna for a secondary. It will stow much more nicely than the Danforth below decks. No reason for not going all chain? How about too small a boat for that much weight in the bow? I hadn't thought of having to cut away my anchor line either, though the currents many places would make that a concern. I am still on the hard in Homer, cutlass bearing done and rudder and shoe back in place. Hoping to launch by the end of the week! See you in the Sound in July ksanders

I have a new 600' 5/8" line at West waiting for pickup, along with a 22 lb Rocna for a secondary.

Hopefully the 5/8 line is for a far larger anchor than a 22 pounder.

The joy of nylon is its ability to stretch and lower shock loads , which requires about 10% to 15% of the ropes breaking rating to begin to stretch.

5/8 for a 60+ pound anchor , fine , for 22 lbs it might as well be a steel wire .

FF says re 5/8" nylon line "for 22 lbs it might as well be a steel wire".

Grab a 40' length (or even 20-30) tie off one end and the lean back and pull on it. It's like a big bungee. Lots of stretch. At least that's my experience.

I have 5/8' nylon Brait (type of weave) line and usually anchor w 18 to 22lb anchors. Unlike chain the low weight of nylon line permits one to use larger than needed. Many skippers using chain, especially all chain use smaller chain because of the expense and weight. I think a boat's performance is more adversely effected by chain weight in the bow than most but I've said that before.

I've got 240 feet of rusty 3/8" chain. I could replace it with nylon but I would need a whole more of it as nylon needs more scope than chain and the chain locker is full up now.

FF said:

I have a new 600' 5/8" line at West waiting for pickup, along with a 22 lb Rocna for a secondary.

Hopefully the 5/8 line is for a far larger anchor than a 22 pounder.

The joy of nylon is its ability to stretch and lower shock loads , which requires about 10% to 15% of the ropes breaking rating to begin to stretch.

5/8 for a 60+ pound anchor , fine , for 22 lbs it might as well be a steel wire .

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When you pull your anchor by hand, the added thickness of the 5/8" rode lessens the wear and tear on your hands. I like to anchor in places that don't test my system, so I am little concerned with stretch, just swing. I am almost always alone in my anchorage, and my primary anchor is a 33 lb Rocna, the 22 is for my stern line (400' 5/8" nylon with chain and snap hook for shore ties). The joys of nylon include your ability to store it, pull it by hand, splice it yourself, and it doesn't rust in the box. Steel wire doesn't handle well...

Doug,
I agree 5/8ths is easier to handle.
If I had your two anchors I'd make the 22 my primary and keep the big mamma for gales over 50 knots or short scope anchoring in very small anchorages.

However my last new idea was a 33lb main on a short (150') chain rode hooked to a standard winch. And use my present 435' nylon rode and for me gale proof anchor (XYZ) for the hard blows.

In Alaska I like your 600' rode and when your engine quits you may wish you had double that. If PWS is anything like some places in SE (500' deep (50' from the rock face (shore)) you'll be better off w a very long Rode.

Where do you store your 33 R when underway?

How much chain do you hand pull w that 33R? Every time I've pulled my 35lb anchor I've thought it (although very doable) too much to do regularly.

>I agree 5/8ths is easier to handle.<

, but few pull the anchor by HAND.

Makes little difference to the drum of the windlass if 3/8 or 3/4 is wrapped , and little difference to your hand if all you are doing is tailing the line.

I use 20' of 5/16 Hi test on my primary and 25' of 1/4" on the stern line. I would use a lot more if I had a windlass, but I am truly pulling it "by hand". I get over the top and do a straight lift, sometimes wrapping it off for a moment or two. I used to shoe a lot of horses, still shoe a few. What doesn't kill you makes you strong! The anchor is on the roller, spare in the stern on top of the stern rode. I do try to anchor only once a day, I think the coffee helps get it up...

Continue to observe the rope/chain vs all chain differences in dragging among the cruisers. (I ignore the frequent dragging by the charterers.) Rodney Bay St. Lucia normally has 15kt winds. A couple of days this week 30kts was sustained for hours.

Three cruisers dragged. Two of the cruisers had chain/rope rodes. In both cases the rope separated. One of the boats had only 40 feet of chain. Captain didn't want to weigh down the bow. That boat was saved from the rocks by a local fisherman with a 75 hp outboard after a couple of dinghies failed to tow the boat.

The other rope separation occurred at the bow roller. Boat saved by bringing another anchor and rode.

The all chain rode dragging was captain error. First time anchoring this season and the captain misremembered his color codes for the amount of chain he had out. He is a regular so he was anchored in our pack and was saved when a couple of us saw his boat was moving. He cleared Bay Pelican by 30 feet.

Accepting my memory is not what it use to be I have a small plastic sign with my color code on it.