Injection pump question

Last night I decided to change the oil in the injection pump. According to the manual, it should be changed every 50 hours or so.

I had 2 issues:

First, the pump I have does not match the diagram in the manual (see pictures). There is no drain plug at the bottom on my pump. It looks like it's on the side (C) and that the level plug is also on the side but in the rear of the pump (B). This would make some kind of sense*since bolt B is*higher than bolt C. The filler plug (A) looks like it's at the right place. But there is a little plastic cover beside it (D) that is mysterious. Tried to remove it gently but didn't succeed.

The second issue I had is a bit more worrying. When I removed the 3 bolts, no oil came out! Not a drop. Could it be that there is a leak somewhere and that the level of the oil is so low it's under the drain plug? Am I missing something here?

I decided to put everything back together and seek advice before I use the engine again. Any input would be appreciated.

-- Edited by Fotoman on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 07:17:03 AM

Hiya,
***Any injection pump I have ever seen have had a drain as shown in your diagram.
*but I have only seen a limited # of 120's of a certain vintage (aprox 1973-1979) and NO 135's.
** Yes, if you removed B anc C and no oil came out do not run the engine again until you figure out what's up.* You may want to stick a piece of bent wire or solder in either hole.* The oil level might be just below hole level.* American Diesel is your friend.

RT,Maybe it's one of those pumps that eat engine oil and there's no oil in the pump unless the engine is running. Then you may "figure out what's up" by starting the engine and watching the oil pour out the hole but I wouldn't reecomend that as I aren't reealy up on doze enjuns. Better call American Diesel or maybe ask Marin to recite on his favorite engine.
Foto,
Does the manual describe a process for draining the pump? Perhaps Ford didn't put drain plugs in on friday afternoon.
Soooo many Lehmans on this forum you'll have it sorted out soon.


Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 09:14:23 AM

Just talked to Bryan at American Diesel. He's positive there's a drain plug at the bottom. I'm starting to think he's right BUT the bolt must be broken in the hole because I'm positive I didn't see anything that I could unscrew last night. I'll take a better look tonight. If that bolt is broken in place, that's going to be a whole different problem. I guess I'll have to remove the pump...

According to Bryan, the B bolt is an overflow for industrial use and the plastic cap is there to protect an ajustment screw that we should not mess with.

I'd like to know what's up with the dry pump myself.* I recently experienced the same thing.* Refilled and went on my merry way, but .... it's a constant nagging worry in the back of my mind.

If it's a MINIMEC on a 135 it is lubricated by the engine oil.

It is a Minimec but my engine is a 120.

Take a real close look to see if there is an oil line (tubing)*going from the pump (on the inboard side*or aft end) to a fitting on the block above the oil pan.

Hold your camera under the pump and take a picture looking upward so it shows the bottom of the pump as well as the engine block.

Hiya,
** Two things...get a small* cosmetic mirror so you can see "upside down and behind" things.*Make SURE*ther is no drain where there should be one.* *Remove overflow plug (C) and fill plug (A) and pour in about 1 1/2 cups of lube oil SLOWLY!!! or until "C" over flows*BUT not before inspecting with a mirror that there is, in fact NO drain on the bottom.* If no drain visible, wait 20 min. or so and repeat filling procedure.* IF you can get another 1-1 1/2 cups in you either have a MASSIVE leak or the pump is lubricated by the engine oil (self draining inject' pump).* Make sense?

Fotoman---

If your engine is an FL120, the plugs you indicated on your photo are not what you think they are. At least one of them isn't.* A is the fill plug, B is the breather plug which looks like it has been blanked off (which is fine if there is a breather hole in the pump somewhere else, usually in the middle of A, the fill plug), and C is the fill level plug.

The drain should be on the very bottom of the pump above the drive coupling for the raw water pump. On our Simms injection*pumps, which are essentially identical to the earlier Minimec pumps, the drain plug is the same size as the level plug (I believe it requires a 1/2" wrench).

As Rick said, if the engine is a Ford Lehman 135, there is no need to change the oil in the pump because it is lubricated by the engine's crankcase oil. I have never seen an FL135 so I don't know if its injection pump looks like a Minimec/Simms pump but without a drain plug.

I suppose it's also possible that the original drain plug on your pump stripped its threads (or the threads in the pump body, a common problem over time) and a previous owner replaced the plug with something else, like an Allen screw that does not protrude below the pump body. But I'm assuming you have inspected the pump pretty carefully so would know this already.

Here is a photo of the injection pump on our port engine. The drain plug doesn't show because of the shadow thrown by the lens shade on my camera but it's in the underside of the pump above--- or perhaps slightly forward of---*the label on the photo.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 02:00:17 PM

This is getting interesting. Does your pump have a "sleeve" or*spacer of some sort between the bolt head and the pump body on that bolt labeled as "C"?

If you take the bolt out is it hollow with a pair of opposing holes that would line up with the center of the spacer ... if one exists?

Rick--- If you're asking about the pumps on our engines, the plug Fotoman labeled "B" on his picture, which is the breather plug, is hollow. The lube oil fill level plug, what Fotoman labeled "C," is not. It is identical to the drain plug in the underside of the pump.

As built, the Simms pump (and I assume the Minemec and later the CAV pump that were all essentially all the same thing) had a banjo fitting between the head of the breather plug (the "B" one at the rear of the pump) and the pump body. A metal tube was connected to the banjo fitting and ran down to a level about even with the bottom of the engine sump pan. This tube had a 360-degree loop in it about halfway down. The tube functioned as a breather and as an overlow.

On the direct advice of Bob Smith at American Diesel, I followed his instructions to remove the hollow breather bolt, pull the banjo fitting off of it, replace the banjo fitting with a stainless steel nut that had an inside diameter about the same as the thread diameter of the hollow bolt and a thickness similar to the banjo fitting, put a soft metal washer on either side of the nut, and screw the hollow breather bolt back into the pump. This maintains the proper clearance of the bolt inside the pump, the nut blocks off the breather/overflow opening in the side of the hollow bolt, and the soft washers prevent any oil entering the bolt from going any farther.

*
Bob said I could use a solid bolt in place of the hollow bolt, nut, and washers*if I could find one with the same thread pattern, but re-using the hollow bolt was simpler and faster and avoided the potential problem of using a bolt that stuck into the inside of the pump body too far.

The pump still needs to breathe, hence the need to drill a small hole in the center of the oil fill plug, which Fotoman labeled "A". It turned out someone had already done this on our pumps even though the stock breather setup on the side of the pump was still in place. So I didn't need to drill the holes myself.

I retained the banjo fittings and down-tubes after I modified both our pumps, but I don't foresee any reason to ever have to put them back on.

By the way, the cover that Fotoman labeled "D" in his photo protects an adjustment screw on the pump.* I can't remember what it adjusts--- it's called out in the FL120 operators manual--- but in any event, there's no problem taking the cover off if you want to see what the screw or whatever it is underneath looks like.* But if the engine is running fine, don't mess with*it*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 03:01:18 PM

I know full well what is on "your engines", I have owned and operated a few of them.

When I asked about "C" I meant "C" because it appears to have a spacer where a banjo fitting might have been located in the past but am not sure the OP knows what a banjo fitting is.

A banjo fitting on that location would have served as the drain back to the sump for those models of MINIMEC pumps that were supplied by engine oil. Some versions also accumulated fuel leakoff that was then drained when the normal operating level was exceeded. Those pumps were used on farm equipment where a small diesel leak on the ground didn't matter.

I don't think what you are wondering might be a spacer actually*is one. The level plug (C) is on the end of a short protrusion coming out from the side of the pump housing. So I think what you're seeing in Fotoman's picture*is that protrusion on the casting with the paint worn off.

Here's a photo I took off a discussion post*on the GB owners forum.* It shows the casting protrusion*that holds the fill level plug (C).

Also note that the pump in Fotoman's photo has a "cap" mounted above the pump's sideplate.* It would be mounted to the top of the spline that's on the side cover on the Minimac pump in the photo below between the word's "Minimec" and "CAV England."* On this engine, the top of the spline has been blanked off with a bolt.* My guess is that the cap mounted to this spline on Fotoman's pump cover is a breather cap for the pump, hence the lack of a hollow bolt, banjo fitting, and breather/overflow tube on the rear of Fotoman's pump.

Since the pump in the photo below does not have a breather cap on the cover, or a banjo bolt with breather/overflow tube on the*bolt (B)*at the rear of the body, it is probably*using a breather hole that's been drilled in the center of the fill plug on top of the pump.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 06:31:21 PM

Marin wrote:

I don't think what you are wondering might be a spacer actually*is one. The level plug (C) is on the end of a short protrusion coming out from the side of the pump housing. So I think what you're seeing in Fotoman's picture*is that protrusion on the casting with the paint worn off.

Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct, it shows up much better on the gold version. I wonder if his has a socket head plug in the drain boss below "C" if it doesn't have a drain line inboard?

The same basic pump body has been used for decades by Petter, Lister, Ford, and so many others with variations on drive end, governor style, lift pump drive, and shaft extensions that it is nearly impossible to keep up with all the configurations.

Maybe it's worth spending some time to research the darn things and document all the permutations an owner might come across. The things are going to be around for another century by the look of it ...

RickB wrote:The same basic pump body has been used for decades by Petter, Lister, Ford, and so many others with variations on drive end, governor style, lift pump drive, and shaft extensions that it is nearly impossible to keep up with all the configurations.
*

Click to expand...

Yes, and to make things even more confusing there was acquisition and merger activity taking place at the same time.* So Simms was independent and then became a division of CAV and so on.

It would*probably take*a retired Englishman with a devotion to Ford of England diesels to research and write up all the different combinations of names, companies, and versions of something like this pump.

I'm sure there are other cultures who lean toward this, too, but perusing a used bookshop in the UK*devoted to things like boats or trains or planes or cars shows just how devoted to detail these folks can be.* There will be whole volumes devoted to the "Klapfor-Anderson Double-Acting Air Compressor as used on the Gresley A-Series Pacific Locomotives on the London and North East Railway."* And very often the author will manage to make the Klapfor-Anderson Double Acting Air Compresser seem pretty interesting.

Wonderful stuff, really, if you've got the time to wade through it all.



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 07:09:34 PM

Per Marin's comment if they (PO) replaced the drain plug w an a hex or square socket plug you could easily miss it. Per RTfirefly * * * ..take a look.

Eric Henning

Ok, got the problem figured out. I didn't see the drain plug at first because it was... missing. The bolt came loose and just fell in the bilge. That means the pump has been running dry for a while. Ouch. I eventually found the bolt and from the look of it, it's been in the bilge for a little while. I just sailed 450 miles (more or less 80 hours) with the boat to bring it home. Best case scenario, the bolt came loose last fall... When I talked with Bryan at American Diesel, I asked him if it was possible that the pump would run without oil and not break. He said yes because the oil is there to reduce wear. He suggested I have the pump removed and have it inpected and possibly rebuilt. I put back the bolt and the oil and everything works fine for now. I might just take my chances and wait until the season is over before messing with that.

My dock neighbor had his rebuilt and the shop made a new drain on the side of the pump to make oil changes easier. Just an idea if you do have yours rebuilt. I have the updated water pumps form American Diesel and now its a real pain to change the oil in the injector pump. I just dont have much room to get my hands in and to get something to catch the oil.

The lube oil in the injection pump is there to lube the pump's drive mechanism, the "camshaft" that operates the injection plungers, the shaft's bushings, etc. The injector plungers in their bores--- the things that actually send the shots of fuel to the injectors--- are lubed by the fuel they are pumping (one reason lubricity in the fuel is so important).

So while you did not do the pump any good by running it with no oil (although it's good to know they'll do that for awhile) this is why it contined to operate.

We have the Johnson raw water pumps, too.* One trick to making a bit more room between the pump and the bottom of the injection pump is to loosen the clamp screw on the water pump and rotate the pump counterclockwise a bit to cant it toward the engine block.* This moves the output hose a bit farther inboard and gives a bit more room to get at the injection pump drain plug.

We didn't do this, however.* Instead I*made a "funnel" of sorts from a section of water hose, the clear stuff with the red criss-crossed "threads" in it, and use that to get between the Johnson pump and the injection pump to catch the oil. Works great, and changing the pump oil now is no more difficult or time consuming than it was with the old stock Jabsco/Lehman pump setup.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 25th of June 2010 02:11:04 PM

hi my name is nathan. recently got into the trawler world this summer. total newbie but willing to learn. Our boat has a ford lehman 120. i went to change the injector pump oil and noticed there was no drain plug, like your boat ours ran with no injector pump oil likely for the last 100 hrs. sad face. anyway it ran fine with no hiccups. we got new drain plug and filled. thinking about running it as is. Just wonder how you made out or did you rebuild your pump?

Greetings,
Welcome aboard.

I have a Ford/Sabre 120 and it has a return line and the pump uses the engine oil thus requiring no separate oil changes.

That said I did remove the pump and sent it out for an overhaul (.7 boat units +-) this was due to a bit of a fuel leak at one of the HP fittings that was not fixable. WOW what a difference the rebuild made, better running, faster starts and smoother with less fuel consumption.

I was told the pumps should be rebuilt around 2500-3000 hours.

If you do remove the pump do not allow the engine to move as the pump will be returned in exactly the same position and therefor the timing will be the same.

Send it to a company that works on farming and industrial equiptment not a marine company unless you want to pay more.

I have twin FL 120s on a 1979 GB. I purchased the vessel last year. I ran it for about 30 hours with no issue. When starting the engines a couple of weeks ago the starboard enginet missed slightly for 30 seconds or so on start up so I decided to change the injector pump oil. When changing the oil on the starboard engine, I noticed a hose from the breather/overflow plug to the return fuel line. The port engine does not have this set up. The oil was more like diesel viscosity when it was removed. I have not heard of this set up, does this sound correct? I do not know the last time the oil was changed. The model is the Minemic -Cav England. I ran the engines after the oil change and it started great, no missing. I will check it again after 20-30 hours to see how the oil looks. Any suggestions.

Charlie

Charlie-- The setup you describe sounds very strange and I cannot fathom why anyone would do that.

Many years ago Bob Smith of American Diesel suggested to me a way to eliminate the problem of the injection pump blowing oul out the side-mounted breather bolt and down the breather tube into the engin's drip pan by blanking off the breather altogether. He explained the proper procedure to follow and I followed his instructions.

The pump case still has to breathe, of couse, and he said to accomplish this by drilling a small hole through the filler bolt in the middle of the screw slot. When I removed the filler bolt from each engine's pump to do this I was surprised to find someone had already drilled this hole in both bolts.

The lube oil in the pump is there to lube the drive mechanism in the lower part of the pump. The injection plungers running up and down in their bores are lubed by the fuel they are pumping, which is why fuel lubricity is very important in these old jerk-injection diesels.

Over time the plungers and the walls of the bores they run in wear and this allows more and more leak-down; a bit of fuel gets past the plungers and drops into the lube oil down below. This gradually thins out the lube oil which over time can reduce its effectiveness as a lubricant. This is the reason for the 50 hour oil change interval for the pump's lube oil; even with some leak-down occurring the interval ensures the pump's lube oil will do a proper job of lubing the drive mechanism.

Eventually-- it's the nature of the beast-- the leak-down and oil dilution will become severe enough to require the pump to be overhauled.

So why anyone would want to accelerate the dilution of the pump's lube oil by connecting the breather to the engine's fuel retun line makes no sense to me at all.

First photo is the pump on our port engine with the breather blanked off per Bob's instructions (it's not just a bolt in the hole). Second photo is the fill plug for one of our injection pumps shwing the breather hole I didn't have to drill myself.

Two observations on the above based on the October 1978 Lehman Operators Manual and Parts Identification Book.
1. (P16) "An overflow tube is provided on the sump of some injection pumps to prevent overfilling......a...container can be used to catch the overflow oil until level in sump is balanced". Nothing is said about connecting it to drain elsewhere. Perhaps experiences after 1978 led to changed advice.
2. (P24) (In relation to the Simms fuel pump) "Oil should be changed after initial 15 hours operation and at 200 hour intervals thereafter". [Query, is this the same pump, pic looks like it]
The Book also advises engine oil changes at 200 hours(I`m sure changing at 100 hours is common and no bad thing to do).

Thank you Marin. I had seen some of your earlier post on this and I could not understand it either. The hose is definitely plumbed into the return fuel line. I do have a small pin hole dilled into the fill plug. I am going to check to see for certain that it is the breather overflow plug. It looks to be slightly off from your picture, but the only port/plug on the bottom left side, below the two bolts on the above plate. I suppose I should find a plug and remove the hose. Thank you very much for your quick reply. Live and learn. Charlie

Here is the relevant section of our FL120 operator's manual. Note the oil change interval.

Marin, it may help to establish whether "50" was published before "200", or vice versa, as the injector pump oil hours change period. Mine is dated on the bottom left corner of the cover as "4C61-E Oct. 1978"
Scanning the page is beyond my skills, but that`s definitely the date. I also spotted a reference to pre 1977 engine ID plate location(p7), which suggests the book gets updated periodically.

Bruce, thank you for responding. My manual also stars 50 hours. I do not know the published date. As to the earlier question, my pump looks the same in the picture, but named minemec - Cav England.