Re: Linseed oil on teak

Re: Linseed oil on teak

I've been through several finishes on my cap rails and the Alaska weather gets them all.*My last effort was a teak oil called Sea Finn, a product of Dayls in Seattle. Excellent products *.. *excellent company *.. *but I've had some build and I don't want build. 25% of the cap rail is mostly like varnish w warm brown color and the rest is greyish and weathered looking. I'm sure if I put more coats of the Sea Finn on it would look generally like varnish and require more sanding and coating. I want the soft oiled look like a 6' section I've done w linseed oil (after sanding) about 2 weeks ago.
Here's the question:
I've heard teak turns black after using tung oil. Does it? And does linseed oil produce the same coloring * * ..black? I suspect the tales are true but does anyone know WHY the teak turns black???. I'm hoping it's mildew and that adding mildicide to the oil the teak won't turn black if oiled frequently enough. What think??


Eric Henning

Re: Linseed oil on teak

Eric---

I've used Daly's SeaFin AquaSpar (by Daly's) on teak on the inside of our GB and it's a good product. We use the satin finish but it's also available in gloss, I believe. It's a one-part, waterborne, polyurethane finish and seems quite tough. I recently used it on the minimal exterior teak on our Arima fishing boat, and so far so good, although it's only been awhile since I applied it. As to toughness, I used it on the step inside our main cabin door, so it gets trod on every time someone (or the dog) goes in and out of the boat. I did this a year ago prior to our Gulf Islands trip with guests. So far--- other than a short*white scratch courtesy of the dog--- it's held up impressively well. I believe I applied about ten coats to the step.

Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil, on the other hand, is not so great for an exterior finish. The weather will take it off pretty quick. The only use for it I've ever heard recommended by the shipwrigtt's I know who maintain the large GB charter fleet in our marina is as a temporary fix for exterior teak trim where the varnish finish has failed and been sanded down but there wasn't time to do a proper varnish repair before the boat left on its next charter. I these cases, they give the person chartering the boat a small can of teak oil and ask them to periodically apply it while they have the boat. This protects the wood from weathering so when it comes back the wood is still in good condition for a proper re-varnish job.

(This temporary repair technique will not work if you use, as we do, a finish like Bristol, because Bristol will not adhere to wood that has any sort of oil finish applied to it--- the oil must be completely removed from the wood first.)

An oil finish on exterior teak is not a Good Idea in general unless you are willing to be continually re-applying it.* A slip neighbor took all the exterior teak around the cockpit of his sailboat back to bare wood last summer and applied teak oil (I believe it was Daly's SeaFin but couldn't swear to it). If you look at his boat today, the teak has all gone back to unfinished gray. On teak decks (which I know you don't have) it can be a disaster as it traps dirt, encourages deck plank seam sealant*to loose its grip on the sides of the grooves, and ends up making (with the trapped dirt and grit) a great cutting compound that wears down the wood as you walk on it.

Teak turns black because of mold that begins to grow in the unprotected wood. Oil does a poor job of totally protecting the wood against this, which is why most shipwrights use varnish or the newer finishes like Bristol, Cetol, AquaSpar, Epifanes, etc. If the black has not become too bad, you can bleach it out of the wood with something like oxalic acid, bearing in mind that this will lighten all the teak it's applied to, not just attack the black alone. Otherwise you have no choice but to sand it out, which can end up removing a lot of wood. Best not to let it get started in the first place.

But were it our boat, I would not mess with any sort of oil on the exterior wood of a boat. To keep it looking decent, you have to keep applying it, and I mean every few weeks or so depending on what the weather is doing. If you ignore it, it will weather out and you'll end up with unprotected wood that is susceptible to crevicing and developing black mold.



-- Edited by Marin on Monday 21st of June 2010 12:22:14 PM

I been using Dalys SeaFin on our front deck to 10+ years. **Over the 10 years it has become dark brown, mostly because of the number of coats and dirty, but the best part is NO LEAKS. ***If you keep a good protective coats on like paint/varnish the moisture can not get under.* I have black under the vanished teak where moisture as gotten under. **Dailys not a oil but more of a sealer, and it does not damage the BoatLife caulking made for teak decks.* Every Sept I maintain/repair the teak deck and apply another coat of Dalys.* **

Re: Linseed oil on teak

For cap rails, I use Cetol. Easy to apply and has a bit of oil and a bit of varnish - the best of both? Very light sand (320) and then two coats each spring.

-- Edited by Bendit on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 01:22:50 PM

SeaFin is definitely not an exterior grade product.* I have used Cetol, and it probably is the lowest maintenance coating.* Like all coatings, you have to reapply each year, but it brushes and levels well.

The most bullet proof coating I have used is three coats of penetrating epoxy, wet sanded flat, follwed by 8 coats of Flagship varnish.* That is a three year coating with not touch up.* Re-coat annually, and it will last 20 years plus.* The key is the epoxy substrate sealing all possible areas of water infiltration under the varnish.

This is why I now have no exterior wood, except teak steps I clean off every 6 months with a power washer.

In my experience I agree that unless one is prepared to do the thorough sand and epoxy/varnish thing, and keep it in near perfect condition as Delfin describes, then Cetol does seem to be the best and certainly easier compromise, and looks good - but never quite as good - as a really nice varnish finish.
The trouble is, many folks who do the proper varnish thing, then go to so much expense and trouble fitting special covers over it all, (you know what I mean), that it takes so long to remove and replace, they end up never going out! What's the point of that? There's a Grand banks in our marina with so much canvas covering every piece of exterior timber you can hardly recognise it as a boat except for its general shape and the fact it is floating.

Peter B wrote:"... but never quite as good - as a really nice varnish finish.

There's a Grand banks in our marina with so much canvas covering every piece of exterior timber you can hardly recognise it as a boat ..."

Click to expand...

I could not agree* more! That was certainly the case when I bought my boat and after "one time" dealing with all the caprail covers, window covers. etc., I washed and dried them all for storage. It reminded me of the days when I had seat covers to protect the leather in my new 1964 Chevy. It worked well for the next owner but I missed the enjoyment of seeing all that beautiful leather.



*

It looks like Cetol gets the popular vote. It gets the popular vote here in Alaska too. You can see that Cetol orange everywhere. It looks OK on log style houses. Not on my boat though.*Delfin,
Sounds like you've nailed the best system for varnishing * * ..epoxy prime. Any fool can see how that should work best. Don't thing I have the weather for applying the epoxy-varnish though.
What is "Flagship varnish? I'm guessing it's just a quality oyloresinious clear finish * * *..
like Interlux Schooner, McKloski's spar or any number of good products.
I think you may be wrong about Sea Finn though as I'm quite sure I remember Daly's saying it can be applied to cap rails while cruising. Marin shares your opinion though so you guys may be right and if so I can't believe I was stupid enough to use int stuff on exterior. DUH! Can't find a can in the garage so I'm not sure. I stopped using it as soon as it developed build as that always produces a finish that eventually peels.
Marin,
I'm willing to reapply more frequently than varnish but nowhere near once a month. My raw linseed oil has been on for a month and it looks the same as when I applied it. I need to re-coat though to add mildicide and perhaps pepper like in home made bottom paint.
As to the Cetol I think that's a Sikin's product and as I recall someone said they have a clear version out now. Is that the same as the orange stuff but without the orange??
I see their products here in the hardware store and it looks like many variations of "Cetol". To be convinced I'd need to do a test strip on the same board w McKloski's Spar varnish and compare.
For those just reading this thread see also the archives as this has been discussed before.
It's starting to smell like varnish around here.


Eric

Does anyone here go au natural on the teak?* It's pretty darn nice looking when it's religiously maintained.* But what a PITA!* I'm letting my varnish peel and flake off.* I may even pick up a cordless palm sander and work at it occasionally while cruising.* That way I can recharge at home between trips and sand 'till the battery is low - which will probably equal my level of interest on any given day.

Re: Linseed oil on teak

Yes Cetol is a Sikkens product.
Use "Natural" not "Teak" nor any of the others for a "non-orange" result.*

-- Edited by Bendit on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 02:01:51 PM

The steps on the*ladder from the cockpit to the boatdeck*are teak*au natural,* and I just give*them a*scrub with a Scotchbrite pad and a drop of Simple Green detergent in water every three months or so. They look fine.

Peter B wrote:

There's a Grand banks in our marina with so much canvas covering every piece of exterior timber you can hardly recognise it as a boat except for its general shape and the fact it is floating.

Click to expand...

Previous owners of our boat (all in California) had custom covers made for virtually every piece of exterior teak on the boat except the cabin side trim strips.* We use them--- and my wife has made additional ones for things like the new name boards I made, the anchor windlass, etc--- and they make a huge difference in the longevity of the finish.* We generally take all the covers off in the summer (but we continue to use the window covers)*but we use the boat year round, so we simply leave them*all the rail, transom, etc. covers on*when we go out.* We remove the window covers and nameboard covers,*but that's it.

For the first year or so we religiously took all the covers off the boat (takes about 20 minutes) each time we took the boat out and then put them back on (takes about 30 minutes) when we got back.* Now we don't bother with that anymore.* If they're on and we want to take the boat out we leave them on.

But for a boat that sits in the weather year round, particularly our weather (or hot, constant sun) covers made an impressive difference in the longevity of the finish, no matter what it is.* So in our opinion, they're well worth having.

Re: Linseed oil on teak

nomadwilly wrote:

*
Marin,
I'm willing to reapply more frequently than varnish but nowhere near once a month. My raw linseed oil has been on for a month and it looks the same as when I applied it. I need to re-coat though to add mildicide and perhaps pepper like in home made bottom paint.
As to the Cetol I think that's a Sikin's product and as I recall someone said they have a clear version out now. Is that the same as the orange stuff but without the orange??

Click to expand...

The longevity of an oil finish on exterior teak will depend on how much you put on and the weather in your area.* Down here, which has weather somewhat the same as yours, it doesn't seem to last all that long before it starts looking iffy and then rapidly goes away altogether.

I don't use Cetol--- I don't like the product or the look--- but you are correct, they have some newer varieties that have reduced or eliminated the "orange" tint.* And they have some that produce a more varnish-like shine compared to the original version.

As to someone else's query about leaving teak trim to weather, not a good idea in my (and the professional marine wood experts whose advice I follow) opinion.* It works fine on teak deck planks, and in fact is how they should be treated with periodic washing.

But perhaps it's because of the way things like cap rails, hand rails, grab rails, trim strips, etc are milled, exposing the grain all the way aorund, but from what I've seen on powerand sailboats in our marina that have had their teak rails and trim allowed to go grayand weather out, the wood eventually starts to crack and crevice.* Which then starts looking really bad.

So a finish on the wood--- be it varnish, Bristol, Cetol, Epiphanes, il*you name it, even teak oil--- does double duty.* It makes the teak look good if you care about that, but it also protects the wood from the detrimental effects of long-term weathering.* And once teak starts to crack and crevice (which promotes the growth of black mold down in the wood) you can't restore it, you can only replace it.

For example the teak steps on our boat that give access to the top of the aft cabin and then up to the flying bridge are unfinished.* The tops of the steps are in pretty good shape even after 37 years.* But the rounded edges of the steps where the "sides" of the veins of grain are exposed have the crevicing I spoke of.* The identical style of step on the transom, however, which has always been finished with varnish or today Bristol, is in perfect condtion all around.

When we refinish exterior teak to the point of taking the wood back to bare, we apply two or three coats of CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer) and then--- ideally--- eight to ten coats of Bristol, which is the finish we like to use.* But if we used varnish, we'd follow the same process.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 02:27:48 PM

This is the product I used on a previous boat

http://ecowoodoil.com.au/our_products_garden_furniture_oil.htm

It was recommended by the paint rep

I am going to try it on the new boat as there is a bit of teak to do

I use the gold teakwood enhancer

Allan

Marin wrote.....
"For the first year or so we religiously took all the covers off the boat (takes about 20 minutes) each time we took the boat out and then put them back on (takes about 30 minutes) when we got back. Now we don't bother with that anymore. If they're on and we want to take the boat out we leave them on.

But for a boat that sits in the weather year round, particularly our weather (or hot, constant sun) covers made an impressive difference in the longevity of the finish, no matter what it is. So in our opinion, they're well worth having."

But Marin, what is the point of having all that lovely varnished teak, if you never get to enjoy it because it's covered with b***dy canvas? How relevant does that make the "longevity of the finish?" You may as well either not bother, and enjoy the canvas look, covering s****ty looking teak, with no-one the wiser...or...take the damn canvas off, and enjoy the look of the nice teak for a while - maybe touch it up once in a while with....might I suggest some natural Cetol...he..he..he. After all - like Walt says...if he covered the leather of his much-loved Chevvy, the one who benefited and got to enjoy the nice leather was the next owner - all he saw were the damn covers.....think about it. Tho having gone to all that trouble making them....I guess....yeah, shoulda saved my breath......

Re: Linseed oil on teak

Peter B wrote:

Tho having gone to all that trouble making them....I guess....yeah, shoulda saved my breath......

Click to expand...

If you've stripped 252 linear feet of caprail, handrail, and bullnose*joint cover trim (below the caprail)*and well over*100 linear feet of cabin trim strips, to say nothing of grabrails, hatches, the entire transom, and so on, prepped the surfaces, and applied multiple coats of finish, you will quickly learn that covers are your best friend if you want to spend more time boating than sanding.

Don't get me wrong--- I like all the wood on older boats and would not want to remove it or paint it on ours.* But as FF said in the thread about removing a flying bridge, your boat is all about what's important to you.* WE know the exterior teak on our boat looks nice.* So WE don't care if it has covers on it or not.* If we want to impress people, we take them off.* Otherwise we just leave them on.

And when we're done with the boat if we should decide to sell it rather than scuttle it to be an octopus and rockfish house, a GB with unfinished or poorly finished trim sells for a not-insignificant amount less than a GB with nicely finished trim.* As opposed to other brands of boats, well-finished wood trim is part of what makes a GB a GB.* If one doesn't like exterior trim, or doesn't want to take the time or spend the money to keep it looking good, then one should not buy a GB.* Or at least not an older one--- the new ones have very little exterior wood on them in response to the desire of most*boat buyers today who do not want to spend the time or money or learn how to maintain exterior wood.

My wife and I enjoy working with the wood on* our boat*but we don't want to do the same things over and over again.* Hence the $10,000 worth of covers on our boat*(fortunately, it was somebody else's $10,000).


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of June 2010 11:43:10 AM

I contacted the people from eco wood oil re what to use on the boat and here is their reply

"
The Garden F. Oil is a marine grade oil , the Gold colour should be used if the timber colour after a wash down does not reveal* a teaky look, otherwise if it look good while wet use the clear.


Refer to www.organoil.com.au Garden F Oil icon for timber prep. sheet.


Internally I would use the Clear G.F.O. providing the timber has not been previously coated."

I shall give it a try as it can't do any harm

Allan

Re: Linseed oil on teak

ARMADA!!!

The end!

http://www.ipaint.us/arwoflco.html

Looks like varnish.....as easy as Cetol!

-- Edited by Baker on Friday 25th of June 2010 11:49:18 AM

Nomadwilly,

Flagship is a Z-Spar product that is a little harder to brush compared to Schooner or Captain's, but it has more UV filters in it.* I used it on the oak rudder apron on a Cape George Cutter that ended up under water by 10" or so when under sail.* It held up without the oak going black even after a 3 month sail to the tropics.* I used the penetrating epoxy primer on that piece as well.* I used the same system on the spruce mast, and it lasted for 5 years before I had to re-coat it, so it seems like a pretty good product.* As always, they key is 8+ coats.

As the different SeaFin comments reflect, that name is now used by Daly's as a brand instead of a product, but the SeaFin oil I have used in the past doesn't hold up outside.* As I recall, it was just boiled linseed oil and tung oil, and would tend to blacken the wood after awhile, so it sounds like there are other SeaFin products that perform better that I haven't used.

Re: Linseed oil on teak

Delfin wrote:

As the different SeaFin comments reflect, that name is now used by Daly's as a brand instead of a product

Click to expand...

That would seem to be the case.* See [url="http://www.dalyspaint.com/catalog_seafin.html"]http://www.dalyspaint.com/catalog_seafin.html*[/url]


Use the second half of the link; the first half doesn't connect you to anything.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 25th of June 2010 08:03:52 PM

"My wife and I enjoy working with the wood on our boat but we don't want to do the same things over and over again. Hence the $10,000 worth of covers on our boat (fortunately, it was somebody else's $10,000)."
Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of June 2010 11:43:10AM

Hey Marin, speaking of covering the timber, how's this for an attack of coveritis....?* I think it's a GB, but can't be sure, as not enough shows, and I've never seen it go out.* Just a little overkill perhaps?

Re: Linseed oil on teak

The Linseed oil is going on (about 1/3rd of the cap rail). It looks good but the surface is rather gummy. You don't want to sit on it. One part was 100% raw linseed oil (it's a bit darker) and the rest 80% wood preservative (Dalys Benite) and RL oil. Perhaps I'll rub it down (or up) w turpentine later and get rid of most of the stickyness and get a more satin top surface. I hope. I'm convinced this (or some variation) will be the future.Yeah Marin * .. my Chris just loves to sand the cap rail * *...lucky me (and you).


Eric



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 5th of July 2010 09:40:20 AM

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 5th of July 2010 09:40:40 AM

Re: Linseed oil on teak

Hiya,
** I don't think it's been mentioned in the whole thread but I always understood that BOILED linseed oil should be used.** Raw linseed oil never "sets up", hence the stickiness.* Just sayin'...

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Monday 5th of July 2010 02:47:04 PM

Re: Linseed oil on teak

RT Firefly wrote:" I always understood that BOILED linseed oil should be used.** Raw linseed oil never "sets up", hence the stickiness.* Just sayin'..."

Click to expand...

That's been my understanding also.......



*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Monday 5th of July 2010 03:43:38 PM

Not sure if it's boiled, un-boiled or both, but rags soaked in it can spontaneously combust. Be careful and either get rid of them immediately or keep in a metal can sealed up if you use it.

Good comments all,Nobody can save me from myself. I was getting a little concerned * * .. I was going over the cliff and my friends were'nt even saying "I don't think I'd do that if I were you". However I knew that stuff except for the UV part. Was going to put an additive called "Paint Mildewcide" in the linseed oil but now that I'm using mostly Benite (a wood preservative) that has lots of poisons aboard to kill mildew fungus ect both in the wood and on it's surface. The wood is darker where I put the 100% LO and I'm using Raw LO so it dries much more slowly so it soaks into the wood better. Now that I've switched to 80/20 Benite and RLO the wood color is a bit more blond (I'm assuming it will darken w more coats) but more importantly it's almost not gummy at all. I'll probably get a rag soaked w somethin and attempt to knock down the oil on the surface that was coated w 100% LO. Raw LO was extensively used in the bilge of new wood boats. It's almost as thick as Log Cabin syrup. When I go on the rag Keith I'll try and not start fires. Today (at least this morning) it's raining a bit so I'll not get into any trouble at least till later. Thanks for savin me guys. I feel better.


Eric

Peter B wrote:

Hey Marin, speaking of covering the timber, how's this for an attack of coveritis....?* I think it's a GB, but can't be sure, as not enough shows, and I've never seen it go out.* Just a little overkill perhaps?

Click to expand...

From what I can see of it, the hull doesn't look like a GB hull.* Maybe an Alaskan (built by the same company in wood only)?

If the owners don't use the boat much I can understand the covers.* If there's a lot of brightwork under there and the owners can afford or don't want to spend money on a boathouse, covers make a HUGE difference in the longevity of the finish.

There are some boats in our marina that have teak hand and cap rails.* Rather than use separate covers for both, they have covers that go over the handrails and then extend down all the way to cover the caprails.* Perhaps that''s what's on the boat in your photo.

*

Re: Linseed oil on teak

Guys ,
I don't have varnished cap rails but being a timber boat I usually put a skirt around Tidahapah during the summer if I am not going anywhere.
Just lengths of shade cloth tied of at the rails and weighted at the bottom.
Attached a photo with a length of cloth removed.
The second photo shows the result of the summer sun in North Queensland. You can see where the paint is comming away near the port door

Benn

-- Edited by Tidahapah on Wednesday 7th of July 2010 04:09:33 PM

Update,I found out the Benite does NOT have any preservatives in it at all. I then tried the mildewcide and it didn't mix w the Benite or the Linseed oil. I then got some Olympic Wood Preservative (w as much poison as is legal these days) and mixed it w RLO and turpentine.
I did this just before we left for Ketchikan. Two coats as I recall. It was quite gummy * ..not dry. After almost a month one can now sit on it. It looks good but has a texture that I'll probably sand off w turpentine (wet sand). I may not need any more LO till next spring. And if the basic finnish survives till then Boiled LO and turp may be all that will be needed.
Now I can start getting the same base on all the rest of the teak. Also I'll need to cut out another electronics platform (plank) finish it the same way and install to see if it will take a SE Ak winter.


Eric

Update:
An update BEFORE winter. The teak coated w Henning's oil (25% raw linseed oil, 25% Olympic Wood Preservative and 50% turpentine) has held up fine to this point.
With later coatings I've added the proper amount of Japan Dryer (what's recommended on the bottle) to take some of the softness and stickyness out of the applied coating. I'm 99% happy w the Finnish as it is now. We'll see how it fares over the winter. The teak on the skylight and the aft salon door did come out a bit darker than the caprail but I'm happy w it.