CA Delta Water Export Issues

I don't mean to be the "downer" here. But, enjoy the Delta while you can. Because once the proposed legislation-immune twin tunnels are built, which will convey water from Sacramento to Tracy (the beginning of the California Aqueduct) and on to southern California, the Delta, as we know it, will come to an end. There will be no reason to maintain the levees and infrastructure of the Delta....

You don't think this will change anything do you?

Surely you don't think bypassing the delta with two 90' diameter tubes 180' beneath the delta will change the eco system. All the water contractors who are unselfishly funding the tunnels want to do is pump water from the relatively clean Sacramento at Freeport, any time they want, without concern for the Delta Smelt. The Delta Smelt don't like the current or fresh water created by the pumping. So the tunnels will let them pump at will.
I don't particularly care about the Delta smelt, but I do care about water quality for the Delta farmers and Delta Boaters. What these tunnels will do is remove any flushing effect the water being pumped through the surface waters of the Delta to the Aqueducts have now. The San Joaquin river water is pumped through the Grant Line Canal and Salmon Slough bypassing the central delta entirely. The waters from the Sacramento and Calavaras rivers are now diverted through the cross channel and Georgiana slough to the South Delta pumps. This has to clean the center of the Delta. The added wetlands proposed are currently not funded and will require bonds which we will have to pass and pay for. The tax payer gets to pay for the mitigation so southern ca water contractors can again rape the the Delta. Fortunately for me I will probably not be affected but, those of you boating the central and south Delta are getting screwed. The farmers in the central Delta will lose water quality and may not be able to farm the best farm land in the world while the the large agra businesses in the south San Joaquin Valley get the good Sacramento water to farm desert. The California Aqueduct ships water as far south as San Diego. The claim is this water primarily used for domestic water. However some of it ends up as Ag water. The Delta Mendota canal is used primarily as agg water. It ends in Mendota. Governor Brown wants to provide dependable water for the South Land claiming the Delta levies are in poor shape. IT WOULD BE FAR EASIER AND CHEAPER TO MAINTAIN THE LEVIES AND MAINTAIN WATER QUALITY THAN BUILD THESE TUNNELS FOR BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. Estimated to take 14 years to build and 85 or so billion of dollars. Just my opinion.

And once the reliable and increased source of fresh water is available through the tunnels, the integrity of the levees will no longer be needed to assure quality water to points south. By pulling increasing amounts of fresh water from the system, salt water will inevitably encroach upon normally freshwater tributaries. Local Delta Farmers will lose their source of fresh water. Local freshwater dependent plants will die off.

But wait...we're creeping here. I'll move this worthwhile delta discussion to another page so Bligh's thread remains intact.

I remember the draining of Mono Lake for water in southern Cal....

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

I remember the draining of Mono Lake for water in southern Cal....

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...and that was when the population of the state was less than 10 million. We're a lot thirstier now at 37 million! Heck, there's 12 million just in LA County. Oh well, at least we'll be catching halibut in Stockton.

There was talk at one point of a pipeline from Alaska (no shortage of water) to LA for water....

I'd rather move LA to Alaska.

LOL They tried to move it to Seattle and they were sent back!!!

Giggitoni said:

I'd rather move LA to Alaska.

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Hear hear!

If ppl insist on farming a desert they need to find their own water, not steal it from me. At least there's FINALLY some talk of desalination plants!

Too many people !!!!!!!

We would deport them south!!!

Nope. Wouldn't work. The Mexican government is smarter than ours. They won't allow undocumented Americans to enter the country and they have a nasty habit of robbing and shooting them when they find them. Down there that's almost a sport.

GFC said:

Nope. Wouldn't work. The Mexican government is smarter than ours. They won't allow undocumented Americans to enter the country and they have a nasty habit of robbing and shooting them when they find them. Down there that's almost a sport.

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Ha, I was thinking Canada! Yep I know when you see the news they place Alaska in the Baja CA, but it is really located waaay north of there..

Where's the quake when you need it? That would solve the LA problem.

My great-grandfather was very involved in creating the Delta as we know it. My Dad's family has owned land and farmed there ever since. We need to keep in mind that the Delta as we know and love it is an artificial, man-made contrivance. I absolutely hate the thought of SoCal killing it, the modern Delta is in our family's very blood, but that which is created by the hand of man is doomed to be destroyed by it...

caltexflanc said:

My great-grandfather was very involved in creating the Delta as we know it. My Dad's family has owned land and farmed there ever since. We need to keep in mind that the Delta as we know and love it is an artificial, man-made contrivance. I absolutely hate the thought of SoCal killing it, the modern Delta is in our family's very blood, but that which is created by the hand of man is doomed to be destroyed by it...

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Much of what you say I'm sure is true. But water for the last few million years or so has drained down from the mountains and out to the ocean through the GG bridge. Now much (sometime much too much) of that clean , fresh, mountain water is being diverted very far upstream for irrigation and domestic use in LA.

bligh said:

Much of what you say I'm sure is true. But water for the last few million years or so has drained down from the mountains and out to the ocean through the GG bridge. Now much (sometime much too much) of that clean , fresh, mountain water is being diverted very far upstream for irrigation and domestic use in LA.

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Ok,
So if they pipe it down to LA then is flows to the sea through LA Harbor vs the Golden Gate....
Yes So Cal needs to do more desalination, solar powered would be great.

The thing is most water isn't being consumed to the point it goes away... there are more consumers in Cal and that is the issue.
The BIG water issue in Cal is farming, farms need to have water to feed people. Orchards have to be watered or you loose them.. which starts a 10 year or so cycle if you have to replace them.
Even though I do not work or live in the Central Valley in Cal any longer I do know how important the farming that takes place there is to the entire US.
I always have to laugh at people where I live talking about conserving water... Mine comes from a well.. my sewage is a septic system that eventually recycles the water and it ends up back in the well (except for the water that evaporates when I water the lawn...or when I get a drink at home then pee in town)!

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

Ok,

I always have to laugh at people where I live talking about conserving water... Mine comes from a well.. my sewage is a septic system that eventually recycles the water and it ends up back in the well (except for the water that evaporates when I water the lawn...or when I get a drink at home then pee in town)!

HOLLYWOOD

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Your well isn't necessarily the best solution. Ground water levels can change rather abruptly depending on regional drought and the sheer number of folks using your aquifer. Then the cost to deepen your well could be, well, thousands! Ground water quality can vary from place to place. Always know who your up gradient neighbors are... A well designed septic system should place your leach field down gradient from your well so you won't be drinking the by-products from your families raw sewage.

Giggitoni said:

Your well isn't necessarily the best solution. Ground water levels can change rather abruptly depending on regional drought and the sheer number of folks using your aquifer. Then the cost to deepen your well could be, well, thousands! Ground water quality can vary from place to place. Always know who your up gradient neighbors are... A well designed septic system should place your leach field down gradient from your well so you won't be drinking the by-products from your families raw sewage.

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I guess I better give a bit more info...

My point was that OUR water is "recycled" . I simplifies the description for speed.

My well is actually a community system of 3 wells in a valley with all them around 1/2 mile apart. My house sits above the well head about 100'.
All our waste water goes back to earth through septic systems. The Aquifer is supplemented with rain. The adjacent town has a waste treatment facility that dumps treated wast into Puget Sound, 100% of that water is lost to the sea.
You are correct that some areas ground water levels change, due to many factors, drought, use, etc.
So Cal has more users than it has adequate water.. and that will never change.. unless they bring more in from other sources.
HOLLYWOOD

Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Good luck!

hollywood8118 said:

Ok,
So if they pipe it down to LA then is flows to the sea through LA Harbor vs the Golden Gate....
Yes So Cal needs to do more desalination, solar powered would be great.

The thing is most water isn't being consumed to the point it goes away... there are more consumers in Cal and that is the issue.
The BIG water issue in Cal is farming, farms need to have water to feed people. Orchards have to be watered or you loose them.. which starts a 10 year or so cycle if you have to replace them.
Even though I do not work or live in the Central Valley in Cal any longer I do know how important the farming that takes place there is to the entire US.
I always have to laugh at people where I live talking about conserving water... Mine comes from a well.. my sewage is a septic system that eventually recycles the water and it ends up back in the well (except for the water that evaporates when I water the lawn...or when I get a drink at home then pee in town)!

HOLLYWOOD

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Well you are correct. But by diverting the water so far upstream in the Sacramento river, the lower Sacramento river/Delta salinity levels are rising. Word in the delta area is that farmers are in danger of losing their farmland there because of rising salinity levels in the irrigation water that were not present there decades ago. By building the twin pipes, even more fresh water will be diverted further raising salinity levels to the point where they cannot use the water for irrigation. Of course the rising salinity levels affect much more than just the farming- fish, birds, sealife, ecology, etc.So it's not as simple as "LA is just recycling the water into the ocean so it's ok."
I found when i briefly researched the twin pipes project, the consequences are very complicated and difficult to predict. Professional opinions vary greatly regarding the consequences.
If you 'follow the money' in regards to the project you wouldn't be happy as a california tax payer as we are supposed to foot a large portion of the bill for it without a guaranteed return on investment. But many water companies, power plants , and farms will yield massive profits from the twin pipes.

My personal perception is that it will be good for LA and the south central valley farming community, but very bad for the delta ecology, farmers, and marine industries.


PS I'm not a treehugger- really.

I totally agree

bligh said:

Well you are correct. But by diverting the water so far upstream in the Sacramento river, the lower Sacramento river/Delta salinity levels are rising. Word in the delta area is that farmers are in danger of losing their farmland there because of rising salinity levels in the irrigation water that were not present there decades ago. By building the twin pipes, even more fresh water will be diverted further raising salinity levels to the point where they cannot use the water for irrigation. Of course the rising salinity levels affect much more than just the farming- fish, birds, sealife, ecology, etc.So it's not as simple as "LA is just recycling the water into the ocean so it's ok."
I found when i briefly researched the twin pipes project, the consequences are very complicated and difficult to predict. Professional opinions vary greatly regarding the consequences.
If you 'follow the money' in regards to the project you wouldn't be happy as a california tax payer as we are supposed to foot a large portion of the bill for it without a guaranteed return on investment. But many water companies, power plants , and farms will yield massive profits from the twin pipes.

My personal perception is that it will be good for LA and the south central valley farming community, but very bad for the delta ecology, farmers, and marine industries.


PS I'm not a treehugger- really.

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Follow the money. If you look at the retail price of water vts the wholesale price per acre ft it's unbelievable.
But my concern really has to do with the lack of well studied environmental reports on what the Delta will look like without the fresh water flush from this Sacramento river water. I think the results would be obvious and the water contractors know it. We really don't need another Owens valley rape. Alaska and Canada have lots of surplus water, let's the south land buy it from Canada an idea Jerry Moonbeam Brown campaigned against he he wanted limit California population growth. We pipe oil and gas. bottled water costs more than gas.

If it's any consolation, California recently shipped water to Mexico to save an endangered desert fauna.

bligh said:

Much of what you say I'm sure is true. But water for the last few million years or so has drained down from the mountains and out to the ocean through the GG bridge. Now much (sometime much too much) of that clean , fresh, mountain water is being diverted very far upstream for irrigation and domestic use in LA.

Click to expand...

That whole equation started changing with the Gold Rush and hydraulic mining, which changed the nature of the rivers and the water flow forever. Not long after that practice was ended, the construction of the Delta began, adding new demands for agricultural water in addition to the vast growth in farming in the valley proper (which reduced the San Joaquin above Stockton almost to a creek). Then came the aqueducts, another tragedy depending on your point of view.

What is really ironic is that Southern California , water supply wise, is not experiencing much of a "drought" at all! What's wrong with that picture?!

hollywood8118 said:

Ok,
Yes So Cal needs to do more desalination, solar powered would be great.
HOLLYWOOD

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And there is the solution for SO CA! Let those folks pay for the desalination plants if they want more water.

They need to leave the rivers in central and northern CA alone and stop stealing their water and farm lands. CA also needs to wake up and flush those little "protected" fish down river and open the valve for the farmers that feed ME and my family!

The San Joaquin River must be the most "abused." I've backpacked in its headwaters between Yosemite and Kings Canyon national parks. Soon below timberline a series of reservoirs begin to collect water for electrical generation and then for irrigation diversion. By the time I cross the great Central Valley on the way home, long before reaching the Delta, the riverbed is completely dry. None of the west-flowing water of the southern Sierra Nevada Mountains reaches the Pacific.

Those "little protected fish", the Delta Smelt, are like the canary in the coal mine. Ignore them at your own peril. These fish are very low on the food chain and the ripple effect from their extinction will flow through the food chain affecting nearly all the delta wildlife.

The politicians like Dianne Feinstein are financial benefactors to the contributions of big water companies and water consumers like the Westlands Water District and Paramount Farms/Louis Resnick. They are now beholden to the water companies and big company farmers to produce the water as part of the quid pro quo for their financial contributions/bribes. Listen here from 31:50 through about 41:30 for further discussion about CA Delta water export politics.

Don't be fooled by their claimed need to provide for the small farmer when it's the small delta farmer who is getting his fresh water sent south to the big farm companies like ADM. Our local farmers are being told that the salinity dams will be installed as soon as next month and their water supplies in Sutter and Steamboat Sloughs will become brackish and unsuitable for farming.

The big company farms have for years, even before the drought, been leaving strips of land go fallow along Interstate 5 to give the false impression of a lack of water. Flying over the area, it's blatantly obvious as you can plainly see the green fields of crops just a few hundred yards away from the interstate and in the middle of the thousand acre farms lie these huge 5000+ sq ft mansions with gated circular driveways, tennis courts and luxury pools and gardens.

Their annual water allocations far exceed their needs and they then resell the water during high water years at a huge profit. Their true 100% need lies at about 60% of their annual allocation. So they get 40% more water than they need during a 100% allocation year to resell and line their pockets. So when you drive down I-5 and see their many signs complaining that they are only getting 60-75% of their allocation, know that they are still meeting their needs and even making a profit on that water that they don't need.

Farmers throughout the central valley who are dependent on the delta water have been told for decades that they are not to plant enduring crops (not the right term) like trees/vines producing walnuts, grapes, pecans, almonds due to the unreliability of the water source. The plan was for them to plant annually based upon projected water supplies. They have ignored that recommendation and now plead for pity that their investment in fruit trees and vines are going to be lost. They are victims of their own greed and ignorance.

"Infusion of river water hits restoration site": fresh infusions of water reached a key Colorado restoration site in Baja California, Mexico. The flow consists of 105,000 acre-feet of water-enough to supply 200,000 American households for a year. What water shortage?

FlyWright said:

So when you drive down I-5 and see their many signs complaining that they are only getting 60-75% of their allocation, know that they are still meeting their needs and even making a profit on that water that they don't need.

.

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Actually,
Years ago before moving to the PNW I did a lot of business in the Southern Central Valley for farmers. Some of them would of been called "corporate" farmers.. because of the size of their operations. They were all 3+ generation family farmers but farmed 1000's of acres.

Most of the "native" land you see next to I-5 has been placed in a program that some agency came up with the idea to "trade" land to be developed in other so cal areas for land there to be left "native". The parcels have to be let to go to a native state so the kangaroo rats and such have a place to call home. I and everybody I knew that farmed in the Valley thought it was a crock of ****. Farmers would rather not farm the acreage adjacent to the hwy as it is a liability issue due to being sued for water overspray on the highway, dust from plow down, chemical spray concerns and a bunch of other issues. So the farmers got rid of land they didn't really like to farm and sold it for the program.

The entire central valley is really a high desert environment and there have been water issues forever. If climate change didn't bring such drought conditions it probably wouldnt be much of a issue.
HOLLYWOOD

Some of the signs by farmers

Some signs seen along I5. In photo #3, you can even see the green fields in the background. It's all a fraud.