Did I take this wrongly?

psneeld said:

Ill stand by what I see a lot every year...no matter what you dredge up on the internet..... around little projects like marinas...the marked pole is the tool of choice as Ski posted as well.... OK...I'll admit my area might be limited in terms of geography but I'll bet it isn't much different in places of the country where things are even a little more backward than from where I am....based on the piling and bulkhead jobs I've noticed.

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Ive also seen a marked pole used vastly. We would mark the spuds on our dredges to get an idea of depths before and after dredging.

Ben said:

Tell me if I took this wrong...

My marina is dredging our entrance channel. The population is comprised of roughly 20% power, 80% sail craft. I have a trawler. I advised the dock-master of several variable depth readings I found 3 days ago between 4 foot and 8 foot. I recommended he should check real well before releasing the dredge operator from the work, because the channel seemed inconsistent.

And I was told:

Transducers are not an effective way to measure the depth of any channel. We have a surveyor that will certify the depth. I see you have a power boat, I doubt you will ever have an issue going anywhere.

​

I found that a might bit high-falutin', but nevertheless replied that I was contacting the Garmin Corporation to advise them their transducers are ineffective, and I would be removing my 3. What I did not include is that my Garmin 740s includes a log of my depth history with GPS coordinates.

I don't doubt that they will check the depths, but found his reply a bit condescending. Am I making mushroom clouds from mouse farts?

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I believe you did take this wrong. Since you are not (directly) paying for the dredging and you were not placed in charge of it, your best action would have been to do or say nothing. If your boat hit bottom after the dredging was complete that would have been the time to complain.

While the dock master's reply to you could have been worded better, he is basically telling you that he will take care of it and doesn't need your help.

Your reply to him about contacting Garmin to "advise them their transducers are ineffective ..................." was inappropriate and surely cemented in his mind the notion that he was dealing with a nut case.

As long as you keep your boat at this marina and this person is the dock master you're going to have to deal with him. You would help this relationship by apologizing to him saying you had a bad day had been drinking, etc.

rwidman said:

Your reply to him about contacting Garmin to "advise them their transducers are ineffective ..................." was inappropriate and surely cemented in his mind the notion that he was dealing with a nut case.

As long as you keep your boat at this marina and this person is the dock master you're going to have to deal with him. You would help this relationship by apologizing to him saying you had a bad day had been drinking, etc.

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Lighten up, Francis.

Here's the deal: I PAY to keep my boat there. I have a large personal and financial stake in the condition of the marina. I have EVERY RIGHT to question the maintenance at the marina, with wry humor or not.

Granted, there are many who do not appreciate my attempts at humor, but if the dock-master cannot answer my simple questions without being condescending, I have the right to take my business elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'll stop asking either. If I offended him then I'd certainly apologize. But lying about my condition at the time of asking would not be included.

On a service note, if the dock-master is unable to handle simple questions, is he really fit to manage several million dollars in other peoples' real estate?

Sorry Ron, though I appreciate and respect your concern for the dock-master's feelings, your point is way off target.

You asked, I answered.

rwidman said:

You asked, I answered.

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In fairness to the dock master, it was a direct email at that point. I wasn't questioning his competence or attention span, just let him know the readings I got because they looked curiously inconsistent.

I have a pretty modern set up with a depth/temp log charts. The entrance channel is a roller coaster from 4' to 8', but no matter to me as I draft 4 feet. I honestly felt his reply was condescending or flippant, so I responded in kind. Fair to call me a wise ass.

I'll accept that.

Well since you probably only draw 3.5ft-4ft, I would wait for the sailboats with deep keels to complain!!

psneeld said:

Ill stand by what I see a lot every year...no matter what you dredge up on the internet..... around little projects like marinas...the marked pole is the tool of choice as Ski posted as well....

OK...I'll admit my area might be limited in terms of geography but I'll bet it isn't much different in places of the country where things are even a little more backward than from where I am....based on the piling and bulkhead jobs I've noticed.

Like the backhoe rigged dredger I just passed in Myrtle Beach that I saw doing a marina project when I went through in December...he would be lucky to have used a tape measure on his marked pole based on the equipment I saw.

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This is not a little project cleaning up a few slips or sludge along a bulkhead!
Did you bother to look at the channel in question??

http://towndock.net/ipecancam/1pecancam.jpg?x=1395691219

caltexflanc said:

This is not a little project cleaning up a few slips or sludge along a bulkhead! Did you bother to look at the channel in question?? http://towndock.net/ipecancam/1pecancam.jpg?x=1395691219

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Looking from the photo the most efficient way to dredge that channel would be a backhoe on a barge.

caltexflanc said:

This is not a little project cleaning up a few slips or sludge along a bulkhead!
Did you bother to look at the channel in question??

http://towndock.net/ipecancam/1pecancam.jpg?x=1395691219

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yep...little project by possibly "Joe's dredging".....just like many I have worked over the last 11 years....

The last 3 jobs that were done on a shoestring were multi-million projects that dug out multiple canals and channels leading to them...still done by little outfits with Neanderthal methods....plus multiple marinas along the way. Far bigger projects than the one in the link.

Ben said:

Lighten up, Francis.

Here's the deal: I PAY to keep my boat there. I have a large personal and financial stake in the condition of the marina. I have EVERY RIGHT to question the maintenance at the marina, with wry humor or not.

Granted, there are many who do not appreciate my attempts at humor, but if the dock-master cannot answer my simple questions without being condescending, I have the right to take my business elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'll stop asking either. If I offended him then I'd certainly apologize.

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Have you apologized then? As to your rights to question, they are limited. While his response was perhaps not the best worded, you only chose to escalate the situation. It's a job in progress.

As to taking your business elsewhere, you certainly have that right. Are you planning to do so?

Ben said:

But lying about my condition at the time of asking would not be included.

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I agree that would be total insanity. In fact, saying you were drunk would be the quickest way to make you look even worse.

Ben said:

On a service note, if the dock-master is unable to handle simple questions, is he really fit to manage several million dollars in other peoples' real estate?

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He handled the question. You just don't like how he did. As to managing peoples' real estate, a dockmaster's level of responsibility and authority is very limited generally. He offered opinion as to the imperfection of depth sounders. He offered information though to answer your concerns by saying they did have a surveyor who would certify the depth. That is all the answer you needed to be given, that one sentence. Then he stated that as owner of a powerboat he didn't feel you'd ever have an issue. That doesn't seem unreasonable either.

What did you expect? Him to put you in charge of the project? The only thing I would have suggested he done differently is leave out the first sentence and instead simply say, "Thank you for your interest." Then told you the rest.

Ben said:

Sorry Ron, though I appreciate and respect your concern for the dock-master's feelings, your point is way off target.

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Ron's point isn't off target. It's an opinion. You posted here asking for opinions. You asked if you took it "wrongly". Ron's opinion obviously is that you could have handled it better. Let's see, dockmaster reacts in a manner you didn't feel appropriate so you react in an inappropriate manner. Hardly seems the way to build a productive dialogue or a relationship with the dockmaster.

Have the two of you squabbled before?

So back to your basic question, did you take it wrongly? My opinion, you did. You overreacted to the point about depth sounders and missed the true answer he gave which was that a surveyor would be checking off on the work.

BandB

Without re-quoting, your point is taken. I was too persnickety on the perceived tone. He did mention the surveyor. Instead of responding as I did, I probably should have said "ok, thanks" and left it.

There's other service issues with that marina that have flavored my opinion, so some of that memory was active when I wrote my response.

I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...

By the way, what kind of equipment is used to survey depths professionally. If not a high end depth finder, then what?

Ben said:

BandB

Without re-quoting, your point is taken. I was too persnickety on the perceived tone. He did mention the surveyor. Instead of responding as I did, I probably should have said "ok, thanks" and left it.

There's other service issues with that marina that have flavored my opinion, so some of that memory was active when I wrote my response.

I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...

By the way, what kind of equipment is used to survey depths professionally. If not a high end depth finder, then what?

Click to expand...

Suspected previous issues. That often impacts how we respond to things. It's true with all of us.

As to what they might use to survey, the NOAA standard is sonar, either side scan or Multibeam. LIDAR is also used. Now, not assuming that's what their surveyor would use. Here is a document from the International Association of Dredging Companies.

http://www.iadc-dredging.com/ul/cms/fck-uploaded/documents/PDF Facts About/facts-about-surveying.pdf

Certainly it should be more than just using poles and more than just using recreational depth sounders. Most often I suspect it's a combination of a top grade depth sounder and physical checks by poling. But it may involve more advanced equipment.

And is it essentially a high end depth finder that professionals might use? Yes, but higher end than any of us have on our boats.

There is professional grade equipment to do depth surveys. The sounders on a typical trawler are not that accurate when in shallows. Take a sounding line and check depth against your sonar sounder. Most are a foot or two off, some by more.

I know mine is off a couple. I know if I "lose the blue line", I'm about to eat it!!!

Ski in NC said:

There is professional grade equipment to do depth surveys. The sounders on a typical trawler are not that accurate when in shallows. Take a sounding line and check depth against your sonar sounder. Most are a foot or two off, some by more.

I know mine is off a couple. I know if I "lose the blue line", I'm about to eat it!!!

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There may be a "keel offset" setting on your sounder or MFD. I've calibrated mine to within a few inches at 8' at my dock using a boat pole. That's about the lowest it gets.

The piece I linked to us not all that expensive and is designed for use on very small boats and shallow areas; the OP is just the kind of project. I've seen a few used around here; guy used one when I was buying some river front property and wanted to see how far out the dock would have to go. The Corps of Engineer's survey boats are docked right across from us in Morehead City and have similar, but even more sophisticated stuff than that.
You can get gear that interfaces to plotters for even less.

Crowdsourcing the Ocean Floor: How Mariners Can Gather Valuable Information for Better Decision-Making - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News

The Doyles use something like this for their surveys you see on the Cruiser's Net and their web site.

http://cruisersnet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/littlemudriver.png

Ben said:

BandB

I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...

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New dock master? What happened to the old one that this thread is all about? Did you manage to get him fired?

You Guys are too anal by far. Long ago I got used to the marina owner and dock hands totally ignoring all of my issues and concerns. They just want your cash and then more of the same with the minimal amount of aggravation. It usually feels like I work for them!!

Collins Engineers - Channel Bottom Surveys

Channel Bottom Surveys

From laser-based automated hydrographic survey systems to recording fathometers to basic sounding pole or lead line surveys, Collins’ team of engineering and hydrographic professionals can provide a cost-effective, one-stop solution to hydrographic projects.

ACOE STANDARDS FOR LEAD LINE AND POLE BURIED IN HERE....

http://www.thsoa.org/pdf/IHO%20and%20USACE%20Hydrographic%20Standards%202.pdf

and another....
Rice Associates - Experience - Project Experience: Lake Barton Bathymetric Survey

The County had determined the locations of eight hard line cross sections that were staked at each end by conventional means. The pre-dredging bathymetric survey was completed by conventional "push pole" technology frequently utilized by the Corps of Engineers to capture top and bottom of silt elevations. In addition to the eight County defined cross sections the entire lake bottom was surveyed based on a 25-foot or 50-foot grid depending on the zone in which the sections fell.

plenty more for the doubters....besides the actual experiences of a few here that have employed or worked directly with dredgers.....

[FONT=Wingdings,Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings,Wingdings]
[/FONT][/FONT]

Lots of parrot droppings and red herrings above.
Ben, IMO, yours was well within the fair range of available responses. I suspect being actually present at the discussion helped, fine nuances don`t translate into print. He set out to get rid of you and your complaint asap, by dumping on the sounders we all rely on, and you rightly took him on. Don`t recriminate with yourself.

Ben said:

BandB

Without re-quoting, your point is taken. I was too persnickety on the perceived tone. He did mention the surveyor. Instead of responding as I did, I probably should have said "ok, thanks" and left it.

There's other service issues with that marina that have flavored my opinion, so some of that memory was active when I wrote my response.

I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...

By the way, what kind of equipment is used to survey depths professionally. If not a high end depth finder, then what?

Click to expand...

I do also praise your reconsideration of your handling of the situation. I think you came into this thread questioning yourself. And in situations like this it's not whether one's response was within their rights but what serves one best in the long term. Long range having a good relationship with then dockmaster is beneficial. There are marinas I frequent in spite of a dockmaster or even an owner because I like the marina and the location. Often times I leave it to my wife to get on the good side of the unpleasant person. Suddenly she has them eating out of her hand when everyone else is in constant combat with them.

BruceK said:

Lots of parrot droppings and red herrings above.

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Well said! This thread has taken on a life of its own.

One point missed here is that the long-term relations in that marina are poor, at best. I stayed there for six months with Ben and the owners and operators of that marina are the most passive-aggressive personalities I have ever met. They don't care about renters at all. Too long of a story right now, but I have butted head with them several times and it caused us to leave.

Tom.B said:

One point missed here is that the long-term relations in that marina are poor, at best. I stayed there for six months with Ben and the owners and operators of that marina are the most passive-aggressive personalities I have ever met. They don't care about renters at all. Too long of a story right now, but I have butted head with them several times and it caused us to leave.

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True, true. The rest of the story is more involved. Something is going on with that marina where they have slip owners captive and slip renters, such as myself, are not handled so well in spite of attempts to work with them. Another notable - no one can articulate why exactly, but the planned boat show for Oriental was unexpectedly and suddenly switched from that location to another marina.

One might call these leading indicators, of what exactly, is simply speculation. But seems if they lose activity, it is a downward trend.

To be completely fair though, the facilities are very nice and the hurricane protection is phenomenal. Good neighbors there as well.

After now understanding that your communications with the dock master (new or old) were through e-mail, my opinion has changed.

E-mails are so impersonal that I think you definitely took it wrong(ly).

Ben said:

True, true. The rest of the story is more involved. Something is going on with that marina where they have slip owners captive and slip renters, such as myself, are not handled so well in spite of attempts to work with them. Another notable - no one can articulate why exactly, but the planned boat show for Oriental was unexpectedly and suddenly switched from that location to another marina.

One might call these leading indicators, of what exactly, is simply speculation. But seems if they lose activity, it is a downward trend.

To be completely fair though, the facilities are very nice and the hurricane protection is phenomenal. Good neighbors there as well.

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Marinas with slip owners are often interesting to watch. The real management is an owners association and those running things day to day are contractors often, employees other times. Regardless, very different than a marina owned by one person or company. Expenses fall back on the slip owners and typically the development company still owns a good many slips. A dockmaster finds themselves with many many bosses. While some of these run quite well, others have constant turnover and many problems. With most too the slip prices on resell have disappointed owners, especially while the developers still have slips to sell. I've looked at North Carolina Coastal Properties web site and followed sales. Slips that were once projected at $100,000 are selling for $39,900. Meanwhile the entity running the marina or the dockmaster is terribly limited in what they can do.

He is probably right with 80% sail most of even the smaller boats will draw more than you.

The complaints from 80% of the folks will be sure to be resolved, if they wish to hold their customers.

FF said:

He is probably right with 80% sail most of even the smaller boats will draw more than you.

The complaints from 80% of the folks will be sure to be resolved, if they wish to hold their customers.

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But in this situation it's also going to turn into ugly board and association meetings with one snide sniping at the other. One side wanting more dredging, the other side saying they don't want to pay for more for a few sail boats.

These situations are just like condo and homeowners associations. There is a term too in South Florida called "Condo Commandos". These are generally retired persons with plenty of time who constantly are wanting to run things and dictate to all condo owners and tenants. Same thing when they're in homeowners associations. And rest assured Boat Slip Condominiums or Dockominiums or whatever they're called in a particular area are as bad or worse. Everyone who purchased a slip was probably led to believe the value would appreciate, the marina would be incredibly well run and great service and amenities, and the maintenance fees would be small (as they are often a fixed small rate the first two or three years). Now, as a rental tenant, your issues rate far down their list in terms of priority even though rental income should be high on the list to protect the investment and generate cash.

BandB said:

But in this situation it's also going to turn into ugly board and association meetings with one snide sniping at the other. One side wanting more dredging, the other side saying they don't want to pay for more for a few sail boats.

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Mouse farts are turning into mushroom clouds.

Not worth it for my one snarky email. I'll get drunk with the dock master and we'll find peace love and harmony. All is well.

Ben said:

Mouse farts are turning into mushroom clouds.

Not worth it for my one snarky email. I'll get drunk with the dock master and we'll find peace love and harmony. All is well.

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I'm not referring to your matter turning it into a board fight. I'm just saying boards on these types of association setups tend to fight, period. You have a lot of slip owners pulling in many different directions. It's a business form that if filled with conflict and the dock master will likely end up very frustrated in his position. Every owner considers themselves his boss.