Anchor choices

Peter B · Feb 7, 2014

FF said:
I received an advertising video that was so rigged that it showed a std CQR not being able to set on a sand beach!!!!!!
With 5 or 6 decades of world cruisers experience using CQR , the video had to be a masterpiece of FRAUD, OR all those decades and thousands of satisfied users would be on the beach.

Funny you should use that example FF, because in my experience with a CQR/Plow type anchor - suitably sized I might add - that is exactly what a hinged shank CQR/plow anchor does on firmish or weedy bottoms. It was after dragging in light wind and just a bit of current 8 times in a row, one time trying to get it to set properly I gave up - we moved on, and I ordered a new generation anchor the next week, and have never regretted it.

But hey, if folk want to keep on using less versatile anchors, so they need several different types for different bottoms, then that's their privilege...

Steve · Feb 9, 2014

The point of a wreck anchor is the rebarb bars will catch the wreck and hold the boat in place while fishing. When ready to leave, the boat can power off and the rebarb will straighten out to release the boat. The rebarb hooks can be bent back to shape for the next trip.

Moonstruck · Feb 9, 2014

Peter B said:
Sorry FF, but you are just flat out wrong there. That is just your experience. You have no experience with the more modern multipurpose anchors, so you really should be a bit more circumspect before just dismissing the fact that there are anchors now out there that are suitable for virtually every bottom. However, only members who have owned and used these are really able to confirm it. Let's hear from any of the owners of these new generation anchors if they would ever go back to one of the anchors you continue to tout. I'm waiting…. ok, the anchor scene has been bit dull lately, and he asked for it…

Well, there's the word from the Sarca quick response team. Rex has his teams well organized to pounce at the mere mention of an anchor.

Just kidding of course. Rex seems a great guy as well as his anchors are top notch. I would love to have a Sarca Excel on my bow. Since not available here my next anchor will probably be a Manson Boss. Until then my Delta has been very reliable.

Wxx3 · Feb 9, 2014

Peter B said:
Funny you should use that example FF, because in my experience with a CQR/Plow type anchor - suitably sized I might add - that is exactly what a hinged shank CQR/plow anchor does on firmish or weedy bottoms. It was after dragging in light wind and just a bit of current 8 times in a row, one time trying to get it to set properly I gave up - we moved on, and I ordered a new generation anchor the next week, and have never regretted it.

But hey, if folk want to keep on using less versatile anchors, so they need several different types for different bottoms, then that's their privilege...

That's what happed to me too just after I'd been telling my quests on board how great our 66 lb CQR had peformed up to that point. Maybe it knew we were talking aobut it

I ended up having to leave our anchorage in the middle of the night and do a 12 hour cruse in nasty winds and seas.

When $$$ come, I too, will add a Roncha, if nothing else to get Larry off my back

I'll post the details of that escapade soon enough.

sunchaser · Feb 9, 2014

No Ice said:
I new to this forum and looking for some advice.
My boat is a Grabd Banks 42 2003. I have a 30 KG Bruce anchor which is good if the bottom is right but drags over hard ground and weed.
Im thinking of changing to a Rocna 40 KG, does anyone know if it will fit into a GB 42 bow roller system?
I appreciate any advice you can give me
Brian

Brian

Do you have an all chain rode?

Nomad Willy · Feb 9, 2014

Peter B,
Sorry I offended you .. Really I am and I'm looking to see if you're right.

You did use the word secrets in post #18 "The secret is how fast and how deep she digs in FF."

And you and others have been claiming the newer design anchors will function on any bottom for years. And this says or strongly implies that the design of these newer anchors overcomes all the deficiencies of older anchors not being able to handle certain bottoms. Soft mud and rocks are part of the bottom at times and you're implications is that the new anchors will work fine there.

I still think you and FF are half right on this matter. I've got my favorite anchor too Peter and it's never failed to set and hold nor have any other of my anchors most of them (about 2/3rds) are old to very old designs.

My post was not intended to be provocative in any way and I'm not through looking at it but don't think I said anything untrue about you or what you've said now or in the past.

You will notice I took your advice and stopped talking about short scope. Everyone's heard and that's enough.

FF · Feb 10, 2014

Funny you should use that example FF,

My example was that the ancient fisherman is required both for rocky bottoms and KELP, or other heavy grass areas.

Folks without a fisherman simply have to move on when faced with a tough bottom.

Big hassle with the fisherman is the tide can cause a wrap on the fluke that sticks up.

Almost as expensive as the watch fob anchors,

LUKE Storm Anchors - Paul E. Luke, Inc.

www.peluke.com/Storm_Anchors/anchorfall2005.pdf‎
You'll sleep easier with a Luke Three Piece. Storm Anchor ... Luke anchor is piece of mind you can buy, an ... traditional Herreschoff or “fisherman's style” anc

Nomad Willy · Feb 10, 2014

FF I like old anchors too but I'm not about to shuck my 18lb anchors that have never failed for a huge 55 or 60lb anchor that's very difficult to deploy and requires assembly every use. For my nylon rode and hand deploy I draw the line at 35lbs. Did you see my new Danforth awhile back?

On a more typical trawler one could trade the chain weight for the big Kedge anchor if it could be mounted on the bow gracefully. But you're right it IS an option. I think the shanks are relatively easy to bend though.

But the storm anchor concept would IMO be only valid w a really big anchor. So far I've done 50 knot gales w anchors less than 20lbs.

Doesn't a Claw work well in rocks if it doesn't pick one (rock) up? That's why I took one to Alaska (in 2003) as I thought I'd be anchoring on rocky bottoms but don't think I ever found any.

markpierce · Feb 10, 2014

manyboats said:
Doesn't a Claw work well in rocks ...?

The West Marine catalog says it does. I find the claw to work well in the heavy mud bottoms here.

Nomad Willy · Feb 10, 2014

One of the reasons I bought the Claw on that AK trip is that I thought it looked strong enough to drag over rocks.

Re the big Kedge FF was talking about is spect'd for about a 55lb anchor for my boat and for yours I'm guss'in about 75lbs. How would one launch such a thing w that big stock bar crossways on the end of the shank?

55lbs .... I think is about right for my boat for general purposes for that anchor. They offer the anchor as a "storm anchor". Perhaps they mean 55lbs for a storm anchor. Wonder what they think is a storm? I think there are standards for that. I have downloaded another two sources for kedge anchors so SOMEONE thinks these Kedges are good. One is in bronze but only 22lbs. It's a herrishoff type Kedge and is beautiful.

Hendo78 · Feb 10, 2014

FF said:
No one anchor will do.

Different bottoms require different Styles.

No one anchor can do it all, .

unless of course you have a Super SARCA or a SARCA Excel

MVNoPlans · Feb 10, 2014

Eric:

My mistake, my WM anchor is a traditional, which is just a Danforth. Again, it holds great where I use it. If I anchored in varied bottom materials, not sure what I would use ...

Nomad Willy · Feb 10, 2014

No plans,
My 30'Willard came w a 13lb Danforth. Has an "I" section forged shank that said Danforth on it. Used it quite a few times in winds up to 35mph and it held fine. Always set quickly too. Most Danforth anchors seem too light and look weak to me. Found a used one that isn't though and bought it for $40. 35lbs.

Can't speak for the CQR you see them just about everywhere but on fishing boats.

I'm anxious to get down to the So Sound w the boat.

Peter B · Feb 11, 2014

Moonstruck said:
I would love to have a Sarca Excel on my bow. Since not available here my next anchor will probably be a Manson Boss. Until then my Delta has been very reliable.

Actually Don, a case could be made for calling the Delta one of the first of the newer generation anchors, because it was one of the first to recognise the inherent weakness for reliable setting in plow types of the hinged shank.
The Delta is a pretty good anchor, especially with all chain rode and if the right weight for the boat.

Brooksie · Feb 11, 2014

Peter B said:
Funny you should use that example FF, because in my experience with a CQR/Plow type anchor - suitably sized I might add - that is exactly what a hinged shank CQR/plow anchor does on firmish or weedy bottoms. It was after dragging in light wind and just a bit of current 8 times in a row, one time trying to get it to set properly I gave up - we moved on, and I ordered a new generation anchor the next week, and have never regretted it.

But hey, if folk want to keep on using less versatile anchors, so they need several different types for different bottoms, then that's their privilege...

I echo these results, had a CQR aboard when I bought this boat (w/ full chain rode too) had too many bad experiences so went to Danforth HiTinsel which has never let me down on any boat I have owned. A good sleeping anchor. I always anchor, never stayed at a marina in 50 yrs on the water.

Nomad Willy · Feb 11, 2014

In time Peter what you think of as "newer generation" anchors will be just old like a Kedge and dreadnought is now. Many will always be better and many will not.

But as much as I dislike the word "generation" (sounds like you're talking about sombody's family tree) when referring to anchors I'll go along for communications sake. The Delta does look a bit like some roll bar anchors but the first RB anchor was the Bugle and it IMO does not resemble the Delta. And Peter I'd say the Delta is much better than "pretty good".

For evolutionary purposes the Delta evolving from the CQR is an obvious shoe in. And of course the Spade is probably related too. But the spade's contribution to anchoring engineering is the research done on the holding power of the concave and convex surfaces in a fluid .. comparatively. An anemometer should have been able to predict the outcome of that comparison but the Frenchman that designed the Spade did a lot of research on that issue. The effects of the results are (to some degree) questionable. The fact that the concave surface is better is not questionable but what that research has done for anchoring is .. to some degree at least. The Frenchman built a concave anchor of very high holding power but there are many anchors that have flat flukes and convex flukes so the Frenchman's contribution to anchor design hasn't turned the anchor world up-side-down.

I have two new generation anchors and 4 or 5 others. I use the old ones almost as often as the new not because I think they are better (they are in some ways) but because I like to switch-an-swap anchors.

Re the Manson Boss I still haven't heard a report on it here on TF or anywhere else. Did Practical Sailor quit doing anchor tests? It appears like it could send all the others back to the drawing board but I've seen others like that that did'nt so it looks like there's not even a jury yet on the Boss.

Brooksie,
THAT IS A LOT OF ANCHORING !!!!
And you managed to do that with out a new generation anchor? I am even looking at my old anchors w new respect. Do you have more to add on your anchoring experiences?

Moonstruck · Feb 11, 2014

manyboats said:
Re the Manson Boss I still haven't heard a report on it here on TF or anywhere else. Did Practical Sailor quit doing anchor tests? It appears like it could send all the others back to the drawing board but I've seen others like that that did'nt so it looks like there's not even a jury yet on the Boss.

Didn't find any tests. That would interest me also. Here is a little video from West Marine explaining the anchors.

MANSON ANCHORS Galvanized Boss Anchors at West Marine

Nomad Willy · Feb 11, 2014

Don,
I watched it and the idea of trading the roll bar for greater surface in the fluke seems a win win to me. Once set the roll bar is not beneficial and IMO has some drawbacks too.

Pound for pound that Boss anchor may very well outperform all others in time. Only if it sets well. I once bought a new wonder anchor that was indeed wonderful if you could get it to set but that didn't happen often. It's in a landfill now.

I looked at one at a boat show and immediately classified it as a lightweight anchor. It may prove to be robust in time but that was my take on it handling it at the boat show. But it could be the perfect anchor for those that have a boat my size or a little larger. Would seem to open the door to hand deploying and retrieving anchors on larger boats that can do that now w the exception of the Fortress of course.

I think the Boss has lots of promise but it's unproven. If I needed an anchor I'd buy one and try it out. I do know that if you damage it you're on your own.

Phil Fill · Mar 20, 2014

I hate starting a discussion on anchors! :banghead:

Our primary anchor is presently the Forjord which 80% of the commercial trawlers have. We also have a QCR and a Danforth as back up. The previous owner primary anchor was the QCR, but I could never get it to stick, and for many years used the Danforth which held pretty well.

However, when we move to the Everett commercial dock most of the 60+ ft commercial trawler had big heavy Forjords. However they do require all chain rope and 5 time scope. The reason for the 5 times scope is the angle of the shank is limited to about 20 degrees and an all chain rode also keeps the angle down. I have looked at the new style anchors, they are sharp/pointy/thin at the tip of the fluke and the shank angle max is 30 to 40 degrees.

So, I have the Forjord back in the shop for some modifications. Mudders were welded on, the fluke sharpened to a point and increase the max shank angle to 40 degrees. The mudders are to increase the surface area and increase the weight of the anchor to about 90 lbs. which is the max my wife can lift.

The sharpen point is so the flukes will dig in quicker/better. The increase of the shanks angle from 20 to 40 degree will allow for a shorter scope. A 20 degree angle requires a 5 time scope and a 30 degree angle is 3 times scope.

It will be June/July before I will test it, but hoping for a noticeable improvement.

Nomad Willy · Mar 20, 2014

Phill fill,
Can't believe there's someone else modifying an anchor. Hope you have as good a luck as I did w the mods.

You probably know I don't like the Forfjord and I'm aware lots of fishermen use them. Fishermen do lots of things that are good seamanship but IMO choosing anchors is not one of them.

For your boat I'd get a big supreme that is known to perform well at short scope. Or an even bigger Claw. Perhaps a Manson Ray if you can afford it.

Don't let Rex (the SARCA guy) know you're increasing the throat angle. He probably won't approve. But I have noticed a lot if the big ship anchors have 45degree throat angles. My Dreadnought does and it sets well but know nothing about it's holding. I suspect that a lot of the time the Forfjord buries one fluke deep and the other sticks up in the air/water like a Kedge.

I do agree that the wider throat angle should increase short scope performance but the Claw comes standard w good short scope perf.

I uploaded some pics for those not familiar w the Forfjord. The 1st pic is the standard Forfjord. The second is the Forfjord w added fluke area. Must be what Phill refers to as "mudders". The third pic is of the Dreadnought. This is a bit similar to the Forfjord and lots of fishermen have them in Craig AK.

Note the two different sizes of chain in the second pic. Some of that chain is part of a forstay and has nothing to do w anchoring.

Rex · Mar 21, 2014

So it looks like the mortar's have started again, No I am not gate crashing just that I regularly drop in to keep up to date with Hendo's progress,

Really FF rigged, Fraudulent, no I am not going to argue with you, but I was sure in the video you viewed it was a Delta? if that's what you see so be it,

No moonstruck no Sarca team keeping there eyes open for comment, I know you were joking, but for the record, there is no team, and if there was I would be the only one silly enough to stick my nose into a forum.

There is no perfect anchor, only better ones.

Regards Rex.

Tidahapah · Mar 21, 2014

Thank you lines men, thank you ball boys.
Hendo you beat me to it.
The proof of the pudding is in the baking and my Sarca Excel is really doing its job on all occasions. :dance:

Anchor questions , ya gotta luv em.

Cheers
Benn

Mystic · Mar 21, 2014

We originally purchased a Rocna from West Marine in 2011. Sometime thereafter we were notified by West Marina that the Rocna was recalled. Apparently, they were using a weaker grade of steel than specified. Google "Rocna Recall", you'll find a lot of info on the recall. We'd never buy a Rocna again. We lost faith in them and their product.

West Marina swapped out the Rocna for a 125lb Manson Supreme. The Manson Supreme is the best anchor we've every owned. We anchor all the time. We spent 5 months cruising New England in 2012 and anchored everywhere. Never once did we take a dock or mooring. We love swinging on the hook. She held in all kinds of weather and bottoms.

We've been cruising since Oct 2013 and have anchored 99% of the time along the east coast, ICW and Florida. Can't say enough about the Manson Supreme. Having said all that, we have several other anchors on board for backup.

Andy G · Mar 21, 2014

Mystic said:
We originally purchased a Rocna from West Marine in 2011. Sometime thereafter we were notified by West Marina that the Rocna was recalled. Apparently, they were using a weaker grade of steel than specified. Google "Rocna Recall", you'll find a lot of info on the recall. We'd never buy a Rocna again. We lost faith in them and their product.

That issue has been extensively discussed in quite a few forums over the last couple of years. It certainly was not a good look, however I haven't heard of any negative comments about Rocna's since the the Canadian company took over.

Rex is on the money when he says there is no such thing as the perfect anchor. So choose your anchor, pay the money and ensure your insurance is up to date.

Mystic · Mar 21, 2014

Rex is totally right, "There is no such thing as a perfect anchor"

But back to the Rocna, it continues be manufactured in China.
As reported in YBW.com, 9/2011;

The licence to manufacture Rocna anchors has been re-assigned to Canada Metal Pacific, it was announced today.

UPDATE: A spokesman for Canada Metal Pacific told YBW that Rocna anchors will continue to be manufactured in China. They told us that last week a quality control specialist from New Zealand was sent to China to ensure the manufacturer is using the correct steel to produce Rocna anchors
Read more at Rocna Anchors acquired by Canada Metal Pacific | ybw
The licence to manufacture Rocna anchors has been re-assigned to Canada Metal Pacific, it was announced today.

UPDATE: A spokesman for Canada Metal Pacific told YBW that Rocna anchors will continue to be manufactured in China. They told us that last week a quality control specialist from New Zealand was sent to China to ensure the manufacturer is using the correct steel to produce Rocna anchors.
Read more at Rocna Anchors acquired by Canada Metal Pacific | ybw

Rocna Anchors acquired by Canada Metal Pacific | ybw

Personally, I have very little faith in any product that comes out of China.

The licence to manufacture Rocna anchors has been re-assigned to Canada Metal Pacific, it was announced today.

UPDATE: A spokesman for Canada Metal Pacific told YBW that Rocna anchors will continue to be manufactured in China. They told us that last week a quality control specialist from New Zealand was sent to China to ensure the manufacturer is using the correct steel to produce Rocna anchors.
Read more at Rocna Anchors acquired by Canada Metal Pacific | ybw
The licence to manufacture Rocna anchors has been re-assigned to Canada Metal Pacific, it was announced today.

UPDATE: A spokesman for Canada Metal Pacific told YBW that Rocna anchors will continue to be manufactured in China. They told us that last week a quality control specialist from New Zealand was sent to China to ensure the manufacturer is using the correct steel to produce Rocna anchors.
Read more at Rocna Anchors acquired by Canada Metal Pacific | ybw

But, to each his own.

Nomad Willy · Mar 21, 2014

Mystic,
If you don't buy things made in China you must not have many things.

It's a world market now and products everywhere are from everywhere else. I just bought a new car that was made in Mexico. The transmission was made in Argentina where I thought everyone was a cowboy. I have LOTs of stuff made in China and don't recall anything failing.

I'm sure the Rocna was made according to the specifications set forth by Peter K Smith. He figured if he got caught the obvious would happen. China would get the blame. And they did. Personally I wouldn't worry about the strength of the shank. Have you ever heard of one failing? Other than the one delfin "tested"? Bent anchor shanks are almost never the end of the world. People worry about the screws on the Spade too. It's easy to say "I'm a smart guy and wouldn't be foolish enough to buy something like that". My favorite anchor is held together w screws too and of course they haven't failed.

If you like the Rocna buy it. I prefer the Manson Supreme though and bought it well before the Rocna got shanked. And of course if you're in Oz buy the SARCA.

Peter B · Mar 21, 2014

I'm staying out of this I tell you…yes…staying out of it….mmmmmhhhhhgrrrrhahhhhhh..!

markpierce · Mar 21, 2014

Made in China (although most all of the systems are made elsewhere; like the John Deere was made in France):

caltexflanc · Mar 22, 2014

I'm sure the Rocna was made according to the specifications set forth by Peter K Smith. He figured if he got caught the obvious would happen. China would get the blame. And they did.

You obviously have zero experience having things built in China. The Rocna story has been played out thousands of times in dozens of other industries. The Chinese are notorious, left unsupervised, for building things out of spec. Not some of the time, virtually ALL of the time. Especially for newbies to China and smaller firms.

A friend of mine started an entire industry of providing QC and monitoring for foreign companies having things built there (electronics in his case). First, making sure the right materials and components are used per the Bill of Materials. Then, that they all find their way into the product and are fabricated properly. Then, that they are tested properly. Then, that the item finds it way into the right box. Then that the right box with the right item in it finds it's way into the right container. Then, that the right container gets to the right port and the right ship and the right stuff is still inside it when it goes on the ship!

I've seen and heard of the whole scenario playing out not just in electronics, but lamps, furniture, housewares, apparel, etc. So that it happened to some small company marketing anchors is not in the least bit surprising. In fact, I'd expect it.

sunchaser · Mar 22, 2014

For the many of us that have "old style" anchors that work first time every time what are we to do? Other than chuckle of course.

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