GFI outlets

psneeld said:

depends whether he said all outlets had to be GFI or GFI protected.

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Functionally, it's the same thing. Any outlet wired up (correctly!) downstream of a GFI is protected.

On refitting an old boat, it may be simpler and more cost effective to put GFI's in each outlet as it may be difficult to know what is wired to what. Probably not that many outlets to deal with. GFI's are not that expensive.

I agree with Ski in NC. "Multiple feed through" installations of GFCI's are permitted under ABYC and NFPA standards. ie. if the first outlet in the circuit is GFCI, all others on that circuit are protected.

Ski in NC said:

Functionally, it's the same thing. Any outlet wired up (correctly!) downstream of a GFI is protected.

On refitting an old boat, it may be simpler and more cost effective to put GFI's in each outlet as it may be difficult to know what is wired to what. Probably not that many outlets to deal with. GFI's are not that expensive.

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I know...what I was getting at is if he sad all outlets are required to be and the insurance co blindly follows surveyors recommendations...it's the never ending cycle of less than perfect surveyors having one leg up on you.

It makes the good ones have t work harder to separate themselves from the pack.

You can buy plug in GFI at Lows and Home. We had an insurance audit which requird GFI on the out lets, and the plug in pass/met the requirement. Also the are a 4 plug rather than two.

As a side note..
I replaced all outlets with GFI as the installed wiring was setup in a way that required it. All was good until I replaced a 12V radio in the same cabinet as one of the GFI outlets. When installing the speakers, I looped the speaker wire over one of the 120VAC cables temporarily while I determined where I wanted to place them, etc.

While listening to the stereo that night I heard the GFI pop. I had plugged nothing new into it. I reset it and it again popped in about five minutes. OK, there may be a problem so I removed everything from the circuit and reset the GFI- popped again in about 5 minutes.

So the culprit proved to be the speaker wires that I had set on top of the 120VAC wires. (And yes, all connectors were proper and cables are brand new on everything.) In studying what was happening I found that the signals going through the speaker wires must have induced a change in the GFI that was sensed as current and caused it to pop. I literally moved the speaker wires onto a hanger in the closet and the problem went away.

All wires have subsequently been installed and secured after I found where I wanted the speakers. Just thought I would pass this along if anyone ever has a GFI pop and can't find out why.

Jeff

I had an advantage because Hatteras supplies detailed schematics of each circuit. But even still, one has to deal with decades of PO modifications, and one's own. If in doubt (not much of an "if", there should always be doubt), turn every thing on and have something plugged in to each outlet, and start turning off breakers, which quickly tells you what is on each circuit. Put your "master" GFI outlet as the first thing after the breaker. I just installed them right next to the panel, made it much easier to control everything, just to make sure some PO hadn't put in an intervening outlet or switched things around some.

One of the "issues" with some GFI receptical's is that many are meant for solid copper wire vs fine stranded ( and hopefully ) tinned wire. There are GFI's that have side clamps that will hold our marine wire firmly.

The first one is much better than the second (non GFI shown just to show terminals).

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

One of the "issues" with some GFI receptical's is that many are meant for solid copper wire vs fine stranded ( and hopefully ) tinned wire. There are GFI's that have side clamps that will hold our marine wire firmly.

The first one is much better than the second (non GFI shown just to show terminals).

HOLLYWOOD

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The wires should be terminated with properly crimped ring terminals.

boatpoker said:

The wires should be terminated with properly crimped ring terminals.

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Doesn't ABYC allow for clamping terminal ends without terminals?

Some marine equipment has "clamping" termination.

Otherwise wouldn't those "euro strip" terminal blocks be inappropriate?

psneeld said:

Doesn't ABYC allow for clamping terminal ends without terminals?

Some marine equipment has "clamping" termination.

Otherwise wouldn't those "euro strip" terminal blocks be inappropriate?

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It does ..... but the securing screw must not impinge on the conductor.
ie. you have to use those terminals where the screw pushes on a little floating plate to secure the conductor. I have never seen an AC outlet with that kind of terminal.

boatpoker said:

It does ..... but the securing screw must not impinge on the conductor.
ie. you have to use those terminals where the screw pushes on a little floating plate to secure the conductor. I have never seen an AC outlet with that kind of terminal.

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Wouldn't the first pic of Post 37 meet the requirement? The wire goes behind the plate.

High Wire said:

Wouldn't the first pic of Post 37 meet the requirement? The wire goes behind the plate.

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I'm not 100% sure from that picture but if the wire does go behind that plate, then yes that would meet ABYC.

I didn't catch that, haven't seen that type on an AC outlet before.

Hospital Grade devices are all clamp style. Not typically found in box stores, you will need to go to an electrical supply house.

Come on you guys. This is all massive overkill. A household GFCI plug works fine and ABYC standards are just recos for new boat builds. Nobody expects you to put a $500 hospital-grade outlet on your boat. Period. Besides, (I saw this somewhere just a few days ago) the majority of boat electrical fires are cause by the DC system, or if it's the AC system at fault, it's the shorepower system. The interior of your boat is a dry space. I would, however, recommend a bit of dielectric grease on the connections.

Hospital Grade GFCI's are about $25.00 each and outlets are about $3.00 each. It's your boat do as you wish.

Trip wire

caltexflanc said:

I had an advantage because Hatteras supplies detailed schematics of each circuit. But even still, one has to deal with decades of PO modifications, and one's own. If in doubt (not much of an "if", there should always be doubt), turn every thing on and have something plugged in to each outlet, and start turning off breakers, which quickly tells you what is on each circuit. Put your "master" GFI outlet as the first thing after the breaker. I just installed them right next to the panel, made it much easier to control everything, just to make sure some PO hadn't put in an intervening outlet or switched things around some.

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Did you disconnect the white trip wire from the original GFI breakers in your main panel or replace those breakers with something else.

Bob Cofer said:

Hospital Grade GFCI's are about $25.00 each and outlets are about $3.00 each. It's your boat do as you wish.

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Fair enough.

boatpoker said:

I'm not 100% sure from that picture but if the wire does go behind that plate, then yes that would meet ABYC.

I didn't catch that, haven't seen that type on an AC outlet before.

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Take a better look.. that is WHY I posted the pics.

The receptacle has a plate that compresses the wire and holds it securely.. I would trust this much more than a ring terminal.

And what part of "side clamps that hold the wire" did you fail to read.

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

Take a better look.. that is WHY I posted the pics.

The receptacle has a plate that compresses the wire and holds it securely.. I would trust this much more than a ring terminal.

And what part of "side clamps that hold the wire" did you fail to read.

HOLLYWOOD

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At 5'o'clock in the morning I missed it yes and admitted it in a follow up post. Please don't let this thread deteriorate into the usual snarkiness. It has been worthwhile up til' now.

Scary said:

Did you disconnect the white trip wire from the original GFI breakers in your main panel or replace those breakers with something else.

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Yes, except the one that still had some outlets attached to it. The OEM GFI breakers are no longer made. My first venture, right after I got the boat, was one of them went bad. I called Hatteras and the fellow walked me through how to replace it with a GFI immediately downstream from a standard breaker. The next venture a few years later, is when I added more circuits to the inverter, which were on another panel down in the engine room and we pulled them up to where the inverter panel is. It is all set up so it would be very easy to return them to their original panel if the inverter went bad or some future owner wanted to do it a different way.

I got a lot of flack here last year for being over protective my circuitry. But electrical is a place where taking short cuts is just not going to happen if I can help it.

Good News Bad News

caltexflanc said:

Yes, except the one that still had some outlets attached to it. The OEM GFI breakers are no longer made. My first venture, right after I got the boat, was one of them went bad. I called Hatteras and the fellow walked me through how to replace it with a GFI immediately downstream from a standard breaker. The next venture a few years later, is when I added more circuits to the inverter, which were on another panel down in the engine room and we pulled them up to where the inverter panel is. It is all set up so it would be very easy to return them to their original panel if the inverter went bad or some future owner wanted to do it a different way.

I got a lot of flack here last year for being over protective my circuitry. But electrical is a place where taking short cuts is just not going to happen if I can help it.

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That's what Sams Marine told me when I inquired about replacements. the good news was they were no longer available as the bad news was they were about $500 apiece. I went GFI's as well. They walked me through the trip wire. This 58 I'm working on is 32 volt, the owner converted to 24 volt. The wire DC gauge was sufficient. I figure if I salvaged the wire out of my boat I cruise several years. I strongly agree on electrical safety. Boats burn up all the time from overloaded circuits. My shore power is fused before the main panel with cassette buss fuses at the receptacles. I haven't seen this except on Hatteras LRC's, Yours done the same?

boatpoker said:

It does ..... but the securing screw must not impinge on the conductor.
ie. you have to use those terminals where the screw pushes on a little floating plate to secure the conductor. I have never seen an AC outlet with that kind of terminal.

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Aren't these floating plates? They always seem to be... you insert the wire in a hole and the screw pushes or pulls a plate against it (or them).


Dave

Not exactly

The holes are independent push in restrains for solid wire. The screws are for crimp end with stranded wire or solid wire wrapped around the screw.

JDCAVE said:

Thanks for the discussion people. The PO was surprised when the surveyor came up with this statement. "It's a boat! It's surrounded by water." The surveyor indicated GFI and GFCI both were required as the GFI trips more easily. I believe the PO had GFCI installed but I am uncertain about the particulars of these.

Jim, Sent from my iPad using Trawler

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There's a difference between GFI and GFCI ??

-Chris

ranger42c said:

There's a difference between GFI and GFCI ??

-Chris

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Nope. Ground Fault Interrupter or Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. Same thing.

Scary said:

That's what Sams Marine told me when I inquired about replacements. the good news was they were no longer available as the bad news was they were about $500 apiece. I went GFI's as well. They walked me through the trip wire. This 58 I'm working on is 32 volt, the owner converted to 24 volt. The wire DC gauge was sufficient. I figure if I salvaged the wire out of my boat I cruise several years. I strongly agree on electrical safety. Boats burn up all the time from overloaded circuits. My shore power is fused before the main panel with cassette buss fuses at the receptacles. I haven't seen this except on Hatteras LRC's, Yours done the same?

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Every big Hatt of that general vintage uses the "shot gun shell" fuses unless owner modified. Those holders are, over the course on many years, prone to corrosion if not regularly maintained. Each holder (two per 50 amp cord) is around $200 to replace! The fuses give a well controlled slow blow. My boat has two 50 amp inlets on each side of the pilot house, for convenience. On the starboard side, there is an electrical panel right behind the inlet. When the holders over there died of old age, I replaced them with two CB's I installed on the panel. The CB's trip a little faster than the fuses do, but nothing inconvenient. Over on the port side, there is not a good place to do the same, and a proper exterior waterproof CB costs about as much as the fuse holders and requires some physical modification.

To me the best solution is to eventually install Glendinning cable masters. Now you have the ability to use a lighter three rather than four conductor cord, since the boat is equipped with isolation transformers, and you can use interior CBs.

Scary said:

The holes are independent push in restrains for solid wire. The screws are for crimp end with stranded wire or solid wire wrapped around the screw.

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No the holes are not for push in solid wire because there is no "release" slot and there is no way to fit stranded wire behind the screw head. I get these from Lowes and you slip the wire in the hole and tighten the screw to move a pressure plate and pin the wire.

Dave

rwidman said:

Nope. Ground Fault Interrupter or Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. Same thing.

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Whew! Thanks, thought so... but the wording I was looking at made me think OP was being told he needed both... and that didn't compute.

-Chris