AB Tender - Quality and Warranty Issue

psneeld · Mar 13, 2014

Other people here have said a lot of stainless stuff these days gets a surface rust and is especially bad around the edges whether bedded or not...probably the poor finishing job on edges and low grade stainless...whether the inflatable manufacturer will do anything is anybody's guess...but I wouldn't stop trying if I was truly dissatisfied.

I'm walking around a marina doing laundry as I'm on and off this forum and there's lots of rust on stainless on boats all around me...many have been sitting for at least the month and a half I was gone from here..so no "salt soup" and it's been getting plenty of fresh water rain on it...

Granted, some boats look pretty good...but then again...high end boats with super wax jobs...maybe the stainless gets done too.

Northern Spy · Mar 13, 2014

Alex F said:
Question regarding the parts (assuming that I will have to tackle the issue on my own). Do you guys think that it might be worth the trouble of taking the parts off and sending to a special metal shop for proper cleaning a do some special re-coating? Or would it be a waste of time and money considering that these are cheap china made low grade SS parts?

If you were to take it to a shop you would ask for electropolishing, which is kind of like electroplating in reverse because metal is removed instead of deposited.

Doing a PMI test would tell you if it is 304, 316 or some other grade.

I can do this stuff for nearly free myself. Not really sure if it would be worth paying for...

caltexflanc · Mar 13, 2014

From the pictures , the only things that appear to need replacing are the U bolts, their mounting plates and some other bolts. Not worth "fixing". Everything else can be cleaned up with products like Metal Wax or Flitz before, if necessary, rebedding.

psneeld · Mar 13, 2014

fairly new boat...some things rusting...other stuff not....

Northern Spy · Mar 14, 2014

Finally saw the pictures on a laptop. They were teeny tiny on my phone. I think you have some cheap nylock nuts and fasteners on the backing side, and it is leeching through the un-bedded hardware.

I'd remove the hardware, toss the cheap fasteners, bed it properly with Sika 291/292 or butyl rubber and be done with it.

Nevermind my previous ramblings (but you probably already did)...

bligh · Mar 14, 2014

I might skip chasing the rep around and just take the dealer to small claims court for the cost of replacing the hardeware. I understand it's the manufacterer problem, but a good dealer should represent you when dealing with manufacturer warranties. Your dealer is your local manufacurers representative. A good dealer would also make things right, even if the manufacturer bails on you. I wouldn't be surprised if they fixed everything for you before your day in court. I would be very upset about that rust if I had paid 22.5k and had those issues.
I'm not a litigious person , but you might just avoid a bunch of unneeded stress by choosing that route instead , especially if you are not being treated properly.
If you were my customer and dropped that kind of money in my business, I would consider your problem an opportunity to earn a lifelong customer.

BandB · Mar 14, 2014

Nothing about it makes me think the major problem is the stainless steel hardware. Yes, there may a little rust on it. But I think it's what is beyond the hardware, the attachment. And it takes very little rust there to spread heavily over the boat.

I would remove a couple to see what you find out. Then you might well be able to convince them to remount them if that will solve it.

As to a legal case, I know it's easy for people to say "sue" and even easy to do so in small claims. However, what you're suing under is implied merchantibility. This requires a rather heavy burden on your part to prevail.

Your first problem is that there is a written warranty which very specifically talks about hardware and about various cosmetic issues. It would be hard to say they implied no problems by selling it to you when actually they implied there could be problems by not warrantying them longer.

Second is merchantibility. To prevail in that area you have to prove that the item, in this case the boat, is not suitable to be used in the normal manner of a boat such as it. The boat is usable however. There is nothing preventing normal use.

This is most similar in nature to car paint deteriorating in fewer years than it should or fading or to gelcoat's or paint on boats fading. Fading of the color on the tubes even. But this is even smaller in nature than those things and more easily corrected in all probability. And plaintiffs don't win in those cases either. And what is the number one reason given for the car paint by the manufacturer? Salt on the roads during winter. Which complicates things further as you can't prove you took proper care. I'm not doubting you did. Just you can't prove it.

Now my recommendation then is:
1. Figure out the problem. Remove a couple and check.
2. Armed with that information then go talk to the dealer in person. Not by phone. Phone you're an object, in person you're humanized. Appeal to them for assistance.
3. If that fails go back to the manufacturer with the facts. Also telling them the dealer has examined the items and concurs with you, if in fact that's the case.
---It may be that ultimately all you're after is some labor and perhaps nuts and washers which they'd be far more likely to assist on than replacing all the stainless steel. Yes, the dealer should have wanted to do what I'm telling you to do, but take that step and I think your odds improve dramatically. Plus you might find out who is at fault in the process.

Good luck in getting it addressed.

Oh and you need to know the problem anyway, even if you litigated. In suit you have to prove the amount of the loss and damages if you win. It's not the entire cost of the boat. It could be washers and nuts or could be stainless rails, and it's labor too. But you'd have to either provide a receipt or a quotation for the cost of fixing it by a reputable business.

psneeld · Mar 14, 2014

Walking to the laundry room yesterday...what appears to be a new, nice and well kept boat....

Northern Spy · Mar 14, 2014

psneeld said:
Walking to the laundry room yesterday...what appears to be a new, nice and well kept boat....

...with low cost, low quality fasteners and bad weld prep, filler material, and dilution rate.

We live in a world where counterfeiting is rampant and people are unwilling to pay for quality.

Go look at the older boats and you won't see that.

psneeld · Mar 14, 2014

Northern Spy said:
...with low cost, low quality fasteners and bad weld prep, filler material, and dilution rate.

We live in a world where counterfeiting is rampant and people are unwilling to pay for quality.

Go look at the older boats and you won't see that.

Agree with you as I posted in post #7 ....

"To be fair...that level of rust is pretty commonplace on MANY stainless accessories and rails on new boats...stinks but I can see where the manufacturer is trying to basically say what I am....

I hope that not all stainless out there does this...but many of the parts including my recently installed swim step ladder looked like that in months after install. It doesn't get worse...but does look like your pics. "

Moonstruck · Mar 14, 2014

Picked this off the internet, so take it for what it's worth. It does jibe with what I have experienced.

Why Stainless Steel Screws Corrode?

Raw stainless steel alloy (active) gains its rust protection instantly when exposed to oxygen (passivation), either air or water. We then say the stainless steel is "passive". The Chrome in it forms chrome oxide that is very resistant to rust.

Unlike aluminum oxide (the white dust) this protective layer is invisible but is easily penetrated and destroyed by any halogen salt like fluorine, chlorine, etc. Bleach is based on chlorine, drinking water is treated with chlorine, and seawater contains chlorine.

But stainless steel, fortunately, recovers its protective chrome oxide layer as long as it is immersed in an oxygen-rich environment, like air or MOVING water.

STAGNANT chlorinated water, likely to be found around screws holding deck fittings, specially if you clean your deck with chlorine based products, is essentially oxygen-deprived and then, with chlorine and without oxygen, stainless steel becomes just plain steel alloy, it is "active" and therefore, rusts.

Alex F · Mar 14, 2014

BandB said:
Nothing about it makes me think the major problem is the stainless steel hardware. Yes, there may a little rust on it. But I think it's what is beyond the hardware, the attachment. And it takes very little rust there to spread heavily over the boat.

I would remove a couple to see what you find out. Then you might well be able to convince them to remount them if that will solve it.

As to a legal case, I know it's easy for people to say "sue" and even easy to do so in small claims. However, what you're suing under is implied merchantibility. This requires a rather heavy burden on your part to prevail.

Your first problem is that there is a written warranty which very specifically talks about hardware and about various cosmetic issues. It would be hard to say they implied no problems by selling it to you when actually they implied there could be problems by not warrantying them longer.

Second is merchantibility. To prevail in that area you have to prove that the item, in this case the boat, is not suitable to be used in the normal manner of a boat such as it. The boat is usable however. There is nothing preventing normal use.

This is most similar in nature to car paint deteriorating in fewer years than it should or fading or to gelcoat's or paint on boats fading. Fading of the color on the tubes even. But this is even smaller in nature than those things and more easily corrected in all probability. And plaintiffs don't win in those cases either. And what is the number one reason given for the car paint by the manufacturer? Salt on the roads during winter. Which complicates things further as you can't prove you took proper care. I'm not doubting you did. Just you can't prove it.

Now my recommendation then is:
1. Figure out the problem. Remove a couple and check.
2. Armed with that information then go talk to the dealer in person. Not by phone. Phone you're an object, in person you're humanized. Appeal to them for assistance.
3. If that fails go back to the manufacturer with the facts. Also telling them the dealer has examined the items and concurs with you, if in fact that's the case.
---It may be that ultimately all you're after is some labor and perhaps nuts and washers which they'd be far more likely to assist on than replacing all the stainless steel. Yes, the dealer should have wanted to do what I'm telling you to do, but take that step and I think your odds improve dramatically. Plus you might find out who is at fault in the process.

Good luck in getting it addressed.

Oh and you need to know the problem anyway, even if you litigated. In suit you have to prove the amount of the loss and damages if you win. It's not the entire cost of the boat. It could be washers and nuts or could be stainless rails, and it's labor too. But you'd have to either provide a receipt or a quotation for the cost of fixing it by a reputable business.

Great post with lots of good points.

Let me start by stating that even though it might be a good idea and approach to sue in more complicated case, this one is just not worth the time and effort.

My main goal is to find the cause, so the resolution can be addressed for long term. I don't want to just keep cleaning/polishing these cheap SS parts every week or two.

I've had very good conversation with the dealer and here are few points:

We tried thinking outside the box and discussed few other possible reasons as contributors to the issue:
1. The dinghy being covered – my response: I can't see how the cover can cause the issue as the tow-hook at the bow is always exposed and not covered, but it has the same rusting issue.

2. Diesel exhaust fumes – my response: It's an interesting idea, but my SeaLift made from Stainless Steal and it doesn't have this issue. The lift is pretty much as old as the big boat (the boat is 2005) and only rusty stains I see from SS bolts, which most likely are lower grade SS.

3. Possibility of poor bonding/bedding allowing moisture build up behind the SS parts. But the dealer made a good point that some components can't be bedded (for example steering wheel), so perhaps this might not be part of the cause here. If it’s still a contributor, then it’ll address the issue only for some parts like cleats and tow hooks.

4. Possibility of some cleaning products stored in the dink. Dealer told me a story how one time an owner had very weird rusting issue, which was eating up the SS parts, I mean physically making the parts become week to the point of breaking. As a result, it was a chemical fumes reaction from some cleaning product stored inside the dink.
This is not the answer to my puzzle, as I don’t store any cleaning products in the dink. The only item that I could think of 1 gallon spare gas can. All other items have no way to generate any fume (I’m referring to PFDs, CG items, etc.)

5. Defective batch of parts - this is also a puzzling thing b/c dealer pointed out that parts like steering wheel, tow hooks, d-ring, cleats came from different vendor. But, it's yet to be confirmed and obviously all could have been switched to lower grade SS for saving money.

6. Boat location - This is another item which I have to rule out (at least for now) due to the fact that my boat is not tied to a specific location. She spent only couple of weeks (from the time the dinghy was loaded on the lift) in Toms River before she went on the summer journey in the range of CT to MA regions. Even though her temp summer base was Stamford CT, her presents there was very limited during summer months. So, the theory of some power plant contaminating the air in the area and affecting the SS on the dinghy doesn't make much sense in my case.

The biggest clue I can see is that the boat was in salt waters of LI/Block/RI/VY and other Sounds and Bays. IMO, all of this is pointing to poor quality of SS parts, which failed to resist the true marine environment.

The dealer is willing to help me out and he asked for time to do some homework and talk to some knowledgeable people (surveyors) to get their opinion on the possible causes.

I'll keep you guys posted with the findings.

BandB · Mar 14, 2014

Alex F said:
Great post with lots of good points.

Let me start by stating that even though it might be a good idea and approach to sue in more complicated case, this one is just not worth the time and effort.

My main goal is to find the cause, so the resolution can be addressed for long term. I don't want to just keep cleaning/polishing these cheap SS parts every week or two.

I've had very good conversation with the dealer and here are few points:

We tried thinking outside the box and discussed few other possible reasons as contributors to the issue:
1. The dinghy being covered – my response: I can't see how the cover can cause the issue as the tow-hook at the bow is always exposed and not covered, but it has the same rusting issue.

2. Diesel exhaust fumes – my response: It's an interesting idea, but my SeaLift made from Stainless Steal and it doesn't have this issue. The lift is pretty much as old as the big boat (the boat is 2005) and only rusty stains I see from SS bolts, which most likely are lower grade SS.

3. Possibility of poor bonding/bedding allowing moisture build up behind the SS parts. But the dealer made a good point that some components can't be bedded (for example steering wheel), so perhaps this might not be part of the cause here. If it’s still a contributor, then it’ll address the issue only for some parts like cleats and tow hooks.

4. Possibility of some cleaning products stored in the dink. Dealer told me a story how one time an owner had very weird rusting issue, which was eating up the SS parts, I mean physically making the parts become week to the point of breaking. As a result, it was a chemical fumes reaction from some cleaning product stored inside the dink.
This is not the answer to my puzzle, as I don’t store any cleaning products in the dink. The only item that I could think of 1 gallon spare gas can. All other items have no way to generate any fume (I’m referring to PFDs, CG items, etc.)

5. Defective batch of parts - this is also a puzzling thing b/c dealer pointed out that parts like steering wheel, tow hooks, d-ring, cleats came from different vendor. But, it's yet to be confirmed and obviously all could have been switched to lower grade SS for saving money.

6. Boat location - This is another item which I have to rule out (at least for now) due to the fact that my boat is not tied to a specific location. She spent only couple of weeks (from the time the dinghy was loaded on the lift) in Toms River before she went on the summer journey in the range of CT to MA regions. Even though her temp summer base was Stamford CT, her presents there was very limited during summer months. So, the theory of some power plant contaminating the air in the area and affecting the SS on the dinghy doesn't make much sense in my case.

The biggest clue I can see is that the boat was in salt waters of LI/Block/RI/VY and other Sounds and Bays. IMO, all of this is pointing to poor quality of SS parts, which failed to resist the true marine environment.

The dealer is willing to help me out and he asked for time to do some homework and talk to some knowledgeable people (surveyors) to get their opinion on the possible causes.

I'll keep you guys posted with the findings.

Well, still seems to me that removing a couple of them might really help with the clues. And until the cause is known, I'd be very careful about ruling out causes.

Amazing some of the interactions metals can have. Found that part interesting. But even something as simple as the material on the washer could interact with the stainless steel. Think of how often they're careful the part visible is nice and shiny but then go cheap on what isn't seen. And the moisture adds to any reaction between the two metals. I've seen some odd reactions like a persons metal belt in a commercial laundry with the chemicals there and the moisture in the air. The lake we use to live on had lots of reactions. Outdrives of engines were as bad or worse than salt water due to the mineral content of the water flowing down from the mountains, including high mercury. Only way to get a Mercruiser lower unit apart was often a crowbar. Only way to clean a hull was acid.

bligh · Mar 14, 2014

You might direct your question to a fellow who goes by 'boatpoker' over at sailnet. I'm not sure if he has an account here. I wish he did as he is a valuable resource. He is an experienced surveyor.
The dealer is probably only going to hear what he wants to hear from the surveyor, so you might want to stay one step ahead of him.

psneeld · Mar 14, 2014

Pretty sure it's the same guy here too....

AB Tender - Quality and Warranty Issue

psneeld

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Northern Spy

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caltexflanc

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psneeld

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Northern Spy

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bligh

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BandB

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psneeld

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Northern Spy

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psneeld

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Moonstruck

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Alex F

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bligh

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